Whistling at Women?

[Tethered_Kite]

The ever-loving battle of the sexes is alive and well. No progress has been made as far as I can see other than in socially and legally forbidding certain behaviors and thoughts which are then driven beneath the surface and cause confusion. A dribble and drabble of us make some personal changes and that’s progress, I guess.

The quote from Jezebel just about names it. But it’s not about sexuality/sluttiness. That’s the surface issue. It’s about equality. Being treated as, and able to do the same as, the other group.

Legislation helps prevention and redress, thank goodness, but it really can’t change the male/female social dynamics. We’re still in cave man mode biologically. Not even all the social engineering and intellectualizing that’s occured around this issue for decades has done that. I think we’ll have to figure out how to alter our biology before we “get there.” There’s a pill for that.

The attitude that works for me is to tell the teachable. And do it in a digestible manner. Healing social ills requires cooperation and it’s not going to happen if either side feels discounted. That’s about those who are willing to hear you.

Those who aren’t? Damn them for not doing it in a way to accommodate me. And since they probably won’t I’ll have to do a little extra work in healing my baggage and growing a thicker skin so I can leave my house without being in a state of offense from strangers.

Then go out and do my small part to heal us all.

None of this happens without getting past the anger stage. So I guess that’s what some people are working on.

[Larry_Mudd]

@Happy_Lendervedder

I’ve whistled at my wife when she’s dressed up and looking fine.

Same here - have generally only wolf-whistled at women I was already in a relationship in with, or otherwise super-comfortable with. …but otherwise, nope.

[Tethered_Kite]

About post #101 for TLDR:

It’s a win-win attitude.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Hermitian

Even though is not right, a young woman in a cute red dress is going to get it more than the homeless lady dressed as a lumberjack.

I’d actually like to point out that, in my experience, this is a fallacy. While you would certainly think the cute girl in the hot red dress gets more comments by nature of what she’s wearing, my experience with this is the complete opposite. And I actually think that lends itself to the greater point in the Jezebel article. Let me explain.

When I put on my (as Youtuber Jenna Marbles calls it) “hot girl disguise” I am always ready for the comments. After all, I’m dressed like your typical girl in a Las Vegas nightclub- skin tight short dress, crazy high pumps, tits up and out, heavy eye makeup, big hair. And do I get comments when I’m dressed like this? Sometimes. Some are inappropriate, some are things like, “damn, girl!” and some are completely innocent and harmless, like, “Wow, you are gorgeous!” Still, the frequency of the first two are far less than when I’m out of the hot girl disguise.

My experience is that I get way more comments when I’m schlubbing around. You know, sweat pants, looking a big ol hot mess. Now, I concede that some men might find the “natural” look more attractive than the “club girl” look, which is fine, but I can assure you that when I’m dragging myself into the pharmacy because I’ve got death’s cold, am physically ill to the point of being green and not showering for 3 days, I am not exactly a sight to behold. And yet, the comments happen.

So, why is that? I can’t know. Maybe I really am just a monster all done up in makeup compared to my natural, virus-stricken face. I doubt it, though. My hypothesis is not unlike the one presented by Jezebel. The woman schlepping around is an easy target, because she’s not taking any ownership in her sexuality in an outward manner; so, these weirdos take it upon themselves to assert ownership of it. When I’m in the hot girl disguise? That’s slutty. Slutty is me having agency over my own sexuality. That is a problem.

[Tequila_Party]

I also think they believe that when they see a woman schlubbing around, she’s such low hanging fruit that she should be grateful for any positive attention directed her way and will therefore take it a step further and accept a date because of it. If she looks hot and knows it, the guy realizes there’s no way on hell she’d give him the time of day and this way, he should be in like Flynn, right?

@olivesmarch4th

Askthepizzaguy, that was a pretty thoughtful post.

Agreed. Almost every post I’ve read from him has impressed me.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Tequila_Party

I also think they believe that when they see a woman schlubbing around, she’s such low hanging fruit that she should be grateful for any positive attention directed her way and will therefore take it a step further and accept a date because of it. If she looks hot and knows it, the guy realizes there’s no way on hell she’d give him the time of day and this way, he should be in like Flynn, right?

A fantastic point. Absolutely.

Which also explains why these jerks usually turn on you and start attacking your physical appearance when you don’t give them the time of day. I’ve had guys say, “You fat bitch! You’re lucky I talked to you anyway!” and such, suggesting that because I am not a model, I should be honored at receiving their attention. I always laugh at this because, dude, you were hitting on me fifteen seconds ago!

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am not understanding the thought process that goes into someone telling a female that their negative experience with a guy didn’t happen because you’ve personally never experienced it and are male.

I’ve never been in a situation where I wondered if I just got raped, either. And what blows my mind is how many women will say that they’ve had experiences where they didn’t give consent and got frightened and pressured into changing their response to consent just to avoid a potential forcible rape, or situations where they felt they might have been drugged, or something similar. I would think this stuff happens rarely, but just like the statistic on women who have had unwanted sexual contact from a father, uncle, or other male family member, the numbers are surprisingly high.

I’m not about to call women as a group, liars. Many women don’t even want to accuse when they’ve been forcibly raped at college, because they’ve seen what happens to the accuser. Either people don’t believe her, or they attack the victim as “asking for it”. So these kinds of behaviors in men are actually under-reported, rather than being over-reported.

I truly don’t get how one can be so stubborn with their own viewpoint that they won’t take “No, this behavior is unwanted” for an answer. I find it baffling that you could remain turned on when a woman has stated that she wants nothing to do with you and is now telling you off. I guess your brain has to be wired differently.

For myself, I cannot enjoy sexual activity with a woman who isn’t enjoying it, that’s almost the entirety of the fun to be had is to see the expression of pleasure or joy on her face. If pissed off, frightened, and lack of consent doesn’t immediately and completely turn off your desires to be with a woman, I suggest serious therapy is required. I am not implying, I’m stating this outright: If you’re still turned on and want to be with someone who hates your guts and is telling you to leave her alone, then you have sociopathic tendencies and you really need to get help. There’s no other way to describe it.

If your reaction is that they’re lying, they secretly love it, and they’re exaggerating their negative experiences with men for some reason, that’s a lesser problem but still a problem that lies with you, and you should probably get some counseling about that too.

[SleuFeets]

Saw a great art piece on this - street harrasment. My fave: “Women do not owe you their time and attention”.

Artist plasters Brooklyn in anti-street harassment posters - Washington...

“Campaigning against street harassment is all about reclaiming women’s right to exist in public places,” she said. “We shouldn’t be faced with catcalls and sexual comments from complete strangers just for daring to walk to class.”

[SleuFeets]

@Askthepizzaguy

I am not understanding the thought process that goes into someone telling a female that their negative experience with a guy didn’t happen because you’ve personally never experienced it and are male.

I’ve never been in a situation where I wondered if I just got raped, either. And what blows my mind is how many women will say that they’ve had experiences where they didn’t give consent and got frightened and pressured into changing their response to consent just to avoid a potential forcible rape, or situations where they felt they might have been drugged, or something similar. I would think this stuff happens rarely, but just like the statistic on women who have had unwanted sexual contact from a father, uncle, or other male family member, the numbers are surprisingly high.

I’m not about to call women as a group, liars. Many women don’t even want to accuse when they’ve been forcibly raped at college, because they’ve seen what happens to the accuser. Either people don’t believe her, or they attack the victim as “asking for it”. So these kinds of behaviors in men are actually under-reported, rather than being over-reported.

I truly don’t get how one can be so stubborn with their own viewpoint that they won’t take “No, this behavior is unwanted” for an answer. I find it baffling that you could remain turned on when a woman has stated that she wants nothing to do with you and is now telling you off. I guess your brain has to be wired differently.

For myself, I cannot enjoy sexual activity with a woman who isn’t enjoying it, that’s almost the entirety of the fun to be had is to see the expression of pleasure or joy on her face. If pissed off, frightened, and lack of consent doesn’t immediately and completely turn off your desires to be with a woman, I suggest serious therapy is required. I am not implying, I’m stating this outright: If you’re still turned on and want to be with someone who hates your guts and is telling you to leave her alone, then you have sociopathic tendencies and you really need to get help. There’s no other way to describe it.

If your reaction is that they’re lying, they secretly love it, and they’re exaggerating their negative experiences with men for some reason, that’s a lesser problem but still a problem that lies with you, and you should probably get some counseling about that too.

:eek:
NOW THIS, post was extremely sexy. YES! He gets it.

[colander]

@Askthepizzaguy

I am not understanding the thought process that goes into someone telling a female that their negative experience with a guy didn’t happen because you’ve personally never experienced it and are male.

That’s to your credit, as there appears to be precious little of anything that can be described as “thought” going into that process at all. It’s kind of like declaring that New Zealand is probably made up because if it’s so real, why haven’t I ever been there?

[Askthepizzaguy]

@colander

It’s kind of like declaring that New Zealand is probably made up because if it’s so real, why haven’t I ever been there?

This is a brilliant analogy. It describes over-skepticism just perfectly.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I do want to say that my posts are **not **directed at another poster here, who had made a comment others responded negatively to, and then apologized.

I want to make that very clear. I just noticed that the timing of my posts could cause that interpretation and it is not intentional.

[teela_brown]

Askthepizzaguy, thanks for saying it worlds better than I ever could. You’re a good writer.

[colander]

@Tethered_Kite

Legislation helps prevention and redress, thank goodness, but it really can’t change the male/female social dynamics. We’re still in cave man mode biologically. Not even all the social engineering and intellectualizing that’s occured around this issue for decades has done that. I think we’ll have to figure out how to alter our biology before we “get there.” There’s a pill for that.

Well, that’s awfully fatalistic, and I am not really sure why you think it’s true. We have, after all, been “telling the teachable” for quite a while now and I submit to you that there is considerably more awareness of these issues than there has ever been at any time in the past.

I’m also not sure what you mean when you say we need to figure out how to “alter our biology”.

[kayaker]

Whistlin’ past the graveyard is still OK, right?

[randomface]

Askthepizzaguy makes a post saying that if men aren’t attractive enough or socially mature enough to not make interacting with women easier for more men to approach, that they should castrate themselves and everyone falls over themselves to congratulate him?

What an enlightened attitude.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@randomface

Askthepizzaguy makes a post saying that if men aren’t attractive enough or socially mature enough to not make interacting with women easier for more men to approach

I’m pretty sure your sentence eats itself right at about this point here. You either didn’t read or didn’t comprehend, and based on this post, I’m voting lack of comprehension.

[colander]

@kayaker

Whistlin’ past the graveyard is still OK, right?

you can give it a shot, but corpse bitches are standoffish as hell

[randomface]

That sentence did grow out of hand.

Your complaint, aimed at the type of person who would whistle at women on the street, had a component where you claimed it makes it harder to approach women.

It also advocated that men who whistle at women (or do other things that are hallmarks of either a lack of respect or experience) should castrate themselves.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@randomface

That sentence did grow out of hand.

Your complaint, aimed at the type of person who would whistle at women on the street, had a component where you claimed it makes it harder to approach women.

It also advocated that men who whistle at women (or do other things that are hallmarks of either a lack of respect or experience) should castrate themselves.

There’s nuance which you might not be picking up, if you’re rushing to judgment.

My posts pointed out that not everyone who whistles at women is doing it to be a perv, but some are- and I laid out what the difference is. And I pointed out that it’s not good form even if it is acceptable to some.

The rather barbed point I made was aimed at folks who, and I’m quoting:

If you’re going to troll for phone numbers like a stalker, spam pick-up lines, whistle and expect a response, and not take “no” for an answer, I have one further request: Castrate yourself. Let’s make sure folks like you can’t breed.

Keyword: “and”.

If you do all of these things together, that means you’ve definitely gone too far. Really, not taking “no” for an answer is by itself sociopathology. Expecting a response is also borderline, because a woman should not have to acknowledge a form of attention which is neither articulate nor without an element of creepiness.

I would suggest a woman is socially obligated to verbally turn down a man who introduces himself to her politely, because ignoring him at that point is rude. But she’s not required to respond to every honk, whistle, grunt, or gesture, because those are rude.

You object to the tone I used, specific wording I used. Fair enough, but I have little sympathy for people (specifically,the subject of my barbs) aggressively demanding attention from women and not treating them with any respect whatsoever. Remember, men who don’t take “no” for an answer or hound women until they get the response they want are literally a touch away from sexual assault.

I’ll not coddle them with flowery words.