It’s only selling brides when it is selling brides. These exchanges are separate from the question of if it is or is not a forced marriage. And if you are trying to fight forced marriage, it’s going to be tough if you also lump in marriage traditions that people cherish.
Where I lived in Cameroon, the exchange-of-stuff ceremony was THE main wedding event. It’s what young girls daydream about and old women think wistfully of. People reacted with pity when I said we didn’t do it. It’s considered a fundamental part of what marriage is. You can stop forced marriage, but the traditions will persist, though they will likely become more and more symbolic.
This offer, even if it was serious, might even be as symbolic as the father “giving away” the bride in western ceremonies. 20 cows isn’t a lot for a successful lawyer and is nothing for a president, so unless he is wildly misinformed about the US economy, he probably wasn’t actually offering to straight up buy her.
I have no idea whether they actually buy brides in Kenya, but I know that lots of cultures exchange stuff of value in conjunction with a wedding, and lots include a “bride price” without it being a forced marriage or anyone thinking the woman was outright purchased.
In Jewish law, the man pays a bride price, which is held in escrow and given to the woman in the event he divorces her. Read the standard kettubah if you don’t believe me. But for thousands of years, the woman had to agree to be married, despite the payment. (And technically, if the girl is under the age of consent, it’s her father who can agree to the marriage on her behalf. But I don’t think Jews have practiced that for the last two or three thousand years.)
So I’m not going to get upset about this practice unless and until I have some evidence that the bride is actually sold, and it’s not just a ritual that goes along with the wedding after the bride is on board – sort of like when/if you ask the father, you really ought to know the bride is on board with the idea in the US, as well.
It’s true that it’s often just the tradition, but I don’t believe in any traditions for the sake of tradition. It’s also true that the bride’s consent is required, but that means precisely dick in too many situations. Bride’s consent is obtained with a whole lot of pressure and even some force in times.
I am not trying to fight forced marriage, though. I’m not trying to fight anything. Just expressing my distaste for it.
I have also been offered a bride price for myself. Eeyuck. Didn’t like it one bit.
Thailand has the practice of bride price. It’s sort of like a dowry in reverse. A main difference though is that as it is practiced by Thais, ideally it is just for show, something to impress the neighbors with, and the groom’s in-laws end up giving it back to the married couple in some form – sometimes the cash itself is handed back, sometimes it comes in the form of a new house to get the couple started. But however it comes back, it’s understood beforehand that it will be returned.
That is ideally how it works but not always. The practice of dirt-poor farmers milking a clueless prospective farang (Western) son-in-law for all they can and then keeping it has become endemic, particularly in the Northeast, the poorest part of the country.
How much bride price was I asked to pay for my Thai wife? Not one single penny. (Or baht.) Hell, my wife’s family was wealthier than I was, and the middle classes on up just don’t seem that interested in the tradition these days overall.
I wasn’t aware I was discussing the woman’s agency. The statement was a reflection on how many cultures developed a “bride price” system, not the details of the system.
You were bringing up the engagement ring. I was pointing out that the bride gets the engagement ring, not her father - this is* very much* a question of her agency. You were discussing it - by not mentioning it at all. Engagement rings aren’t bride prices.
Also, it’s only very recently that men wore wedding rings as well. It basically marked ownership.
Almost all wedding customs are basically misogynist, because until very recently in a small part of the world, basically every social custom relating to gender in any was was misogynist.
This thread is really the first time I’ve heard this. I was raised to believe the engagement ring was offered as a promise to wed at some point in the future - kind of like earnest money on a house.
An elaborate calculus of moral worth and epistemological query…
or, I ask the question: “Do I like this?” and go with that. Values that agree with mine are superior, values that clash with mine are inferior. I am the Moral Measuring Rod of God.