White Nationalism: Continued debate from BBQ

[Sionnach]

First, I would like to reiterate my first question: In what specific areas is the “white culture” under attack?

White people are under attack by non-white thuggery and an apathetic media that doesn’t care when five whites are sexually assaulted and executed, but has a nationwide fit if a cop hits a black criminal resisting arrest. In the future we will all be minorities in our own countries and be flooded out by other people who don’t give a damn about our country and only came to leech off the achievements of another culture.

Yes, I used to be like you and think that a nation full of rival ethnic gangs/lobbies all demanding their piece of the pie will lead to peace and prosperity for the good of everyone. Right, and Communism leads to a classless society full of equality Lol.

Second, can either Halogen or Sionnach produce an example of two communites of similar economic status but different racial makeup that have wildly different crime rates?

I’ve already given you a few graphs using census bureau statistics. There are more impovershed white people than black people, yet blacks and mexicans commit more crime.

Third, what is the exact definition of a white person? Is someone who is 3/4 white and 1/4 other (black, hispanic, etc.) considered white?

No. Many would consider 1/8 non-white to be white, however.

Are Armenians white? Indians are considered to come from the same stock as Europeans; are they considered white?

No, they are more Asiatic.

Fourth, why is it that you are willing to accept ideas from other cultures while wishing to remain separate from them?

Why does my community have to be flooded with thousands of Mexicans in order for me to trade with products that Mexico has to offer?

Why are the ideas acceptable but the culture unacceptable?

Because non-white nations have a few products and ideas that are useful. That does not mean that EVERYTHING by them is acceptable. Some guy here likes Ethiopian Stew. Why should my community be flooded with AIDs-ridden Ethiopians just for something that could be gotten from a recipe-book?

Fifth, if you somehow got in charge, deported the Jews and did whatever else, what would happen to the descendents of slaves in this country?

I would like for them to have their own nation carved out somewhere that is already full of black people. That will make it impossible for them to tax whites to fund their welfare and demand “affirmitive action”.

And last, how do you feel about interracial unions? What penalties (if any) would you attach to these in your mythical WN country?

If they want to engage in that sort of thing, they can move to the country of their mate.

[tomndebb]

I’ve already given you a few graphs using census bureau statistics. There are more impovershed white people than black people, yet blacks and mexicans commit more crime.

This is false. You have pointed to overall statistics, but have refused to recognize that poor whites do not make up the same percentages of the poor in urban areas and have ignored the fact that blacks and Hispanics in rural areas have no more prediliction to crime than whites.

Your silly statistics about Washington D.C. are a classic example: Washington is populated, overwhelmingly, by poor non-white groups with a few very specific areas in which very wealthy people live. You then took the “average” income (without respect to its neighborhood) and matched it against an “average” crime rate (without respect to its neighborhood–and ignoring that it was years out of date) and claimed that the crime must be the result of wealthy blacks. That is so far removed from a valid analysis as to border on the dishonest.

halogen’s figures follow the same pattern.

So, to repeat the question that you are avoiding: can you match up any neighborhoods where the economy and surroundings are similar but the populations are white and non-white and show a significant discrepancy regarding crime?

[sqweels]

It’s just the way the world works.

And so is most of what Sionnach is attacking.

What White Nationalists need to realize is that they’re their own worst enemies. If WN’s are the poster children for anti-immigration, then how many members of Congress are going to support that agenda? They’re going to provoke a backlash due to their apparent racism.

My own #1 issue has always been the need to convince more people to use family planning. But many nonwhites–here and abroad–are suspicious that birth control is a subtle form of genocide. An effecitive way to make family planning more popular in the Third World is to improve the social and economic status of women. But here too, women’s rights are associated with Western culture, with its legacy of racism and cultural chauvanism. Efforts to convince these people that we’re no longer racist and have their best interests at heart are undermined by these neo-racists spouting off.

[sqweels]

I would like for them to have their own nation carved out somewhere that is already full of black people.

But…but…what would happen to all the professional sports teams?

[tomndebb]

If they want to engage in that sort of thing, they can move to the country of their mate.

Actually, most of them (and most of us) have the country of our choice. You’re the ones who want something different, so it is more likely your responsibility to find a place to which to move.

[Super_Gnat]

quote:

First, I would like to reiterate my first question: In what specific areas is the “white culture” under attack?

White people are under attack by non-white thuggery and an apathetic media that doesn’t care when five whites are sexually assaulted and executed, but has a nationwide fit if a cop hits a black criminal resisting arrest.

In the USA, one is much more likely to get the death penalty for killing a white person than a nonwhite person, as shown here and here. If anything, the judicial system would seem to be balanced in your favor.

In the future we will all be minorities in our own countries and be flooded out by other people who don’t give a damn about our country and only came to leech off the achievements of another culture.

Why do you assume that people who come here from other places don’t care about the country? If anything, one would expect them to care a lot more, since they cared enough to immigrate. In addition, why is minority status necessarily a bad thing? Are you afraid of being treated as you (you being bigoted white folks) have treated so many others?

Yes, I used to be like you and think that a nation full of rival ethnic gangs/lobbies all demanding their piece of the pie will lead to peace and prosperity for the good of everyone. Right, and Communism leads to a classless society full of equality Lol.

And why shouldn’t they want a piece of the pie? They helped to make it.

quote:

Second, can either Halogen or Sionnach produce an example of two communites of similar economic status but different racial makeup that have wildly different crime rates?

I’ve already given you a few graphs using census bureau statistics. There are more impovershed white people than black people, yet blacks and mexicans commit more crime.

Two problems here. First, although there may be numerically more impoverished white people than black, proportionally black people are much more impoverished. Second, the question is not who commits more crime, but who gets caught. Btw, what are the statistics on Jewish crime?

quote:

Third, what is the exact definition of a white person? Is someone who is 3/4 white and 1/4 other (black, hispanic, etc.) considered white?

No. Many would consider 1/8 non-white to be white, however.

Why? And what about a black person who is culturally white (i.e., adopted into a white household at an early age and exposed only to “white culture”, whatever that may be)?

quote:

Are Armenians white? Indians are considered to come from the same stock as Europeans; are they considered white?

No, they are more Asiatic.
quote:

Fourth, why is it that you are willing to accept ideas from other cultures while wishing to remain separate from them?

Why does my community have to be flooded with thousands of Mexicans in order for me to trade with products that Mexico has to offer?

Why should all the Mexicans who want to take advantage of what your culture has to offer be denied? Why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to live in certain places?

quote:

Why are the ideas acceptable but the culture unacceptable?

Because non-white nations have a few products and ideas that are useful. That does not mean that EVERYTHING by them is acceptable. Some guy here likes Ethiopian Stew. Why should my community be flooded with AIDs-ridden Ethiopians just for something that could be gotten from a recipe-book?

What would you consider unacceptable about other cultures? The only possible things I can imagine are crime and politics, both of which are being heavily debated in this thread. And what’s an AIDS-ridden Ethiopian going to do to you? From your views, I doubt you would sleep with or shoot up with one.

quote:

Fifth, if you somehow got in charge, deported the Jews and did whatever else, what would happen to the descendents of slaves in this country?

I would like for them to have their own nation carved out somewhere that is already full of black people. That will make it impossible for them to tax whites to fund their welfare and demand “affirmitive action”.

You ignore of course all of the white people who are on welfare. You are also ignoring the fact that “black people” are not linguistically or culturally homogenous. I have about as much in common with a black person from South Africa as you do. And why should the descendents of slaves be forced out of the country while Europeans whose families immigrated after 1808 are allowed to stay? According to your logic, they have a lesser claim on America.

quote:

And last, how do you feel about interracial unions? What penalties (if any) would you attach to these in your mythical WN country?

If they want to engage in that sort of thing, they can move to the country of their mate.

What do you find immoral (or unacceptable) about interracial unions?

[Halogen]

1. A letter signed by a whole slew of PhDs and MDs and other big-brain types. Says IQ is 40-80% genetic. Says the races have different IQs. Says all kinds of other stuff ya won’t like. Wall Street Journal, 12/13/94, page A18. Look close at parts 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 14, 19 and 20. This is reproduced at www.stormfront.org- go to the Text Library and the Racial Differences section.

2. On Steven Jay Gould, by a serious Harvard psychologist. http://www.wcotc.com/euvolution/articles/gould01.html

3. Brain size and frontal lobes: Rushton, J.P. & Ankney, C.D. (1996). Brain size and cognitive ability: Correlations with age, sex, social class, and race. Psychonomic Bulletin and Review, 3, 21-36.

4. Testosterone Levels: 3-20% difference between blacks and whites. 1992 issue of Steroids.

It is unbelievable that relatively smart people can live in this world, see the people, and still convince themselves that race is just a paint job.

Halogen- Fighting Ignorance for a Few Days Now

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by Sionnach *
**

White people are under attack by non-white thuggery and an apathetic media that doesn’t care when five whites are sexually assaulted and executed, but has a nationwide fit if a cop hits a black criminal resisting arrest. **

If you’re talking about what happened in Wichita, it was reported by the AP, and showed up on CNN and Yahoo news, but you’re right, the trial isn’t getting as much attention as it should. However, maybe part of the reason the Rodney King videotape did get so much attention was because it was just that…a videotape, and the TV news, which is where most people get their news, is a visual medium. Watching Tom Brokaw say “The trial of two brothers who raped and murdered five people…” isn’t as exciting as watching somebody be beaten…it doesn’t get the ratings.
**

Some guy here likes Ethiopian Stew. Why should my community be flooded with AIDs-ridden Ethiopians just for something that could be gotten from a recipe-book?**

Well, I believe people with AIDS, as a general rule, are already not allowed in this country, whether they’re from Africa or Europe

**I would like for them to have their own nation carved out somewhere that is already full of black people. That will make it impossible for them to tax whites to fund their welfare and demand “affirmitive action”.

**

There are blacks in America today who are entirely descended from people who came to this country in the 17th century, and, in fact, most American blacks are decended from American slaves. The slave trade ended legally in 1810, and therefore, most American blacks can date at least some ancestors in America before that date. My great-grandfather came to the US from Germany in 1870. Why do I, the great-grandson, have a presumptive better right to live in this country than someone who’s had family here since 1670?

**If they want to engage in that sort of thing, they can move to the country of their mate. **

Can people who are mixed race live on the border? More seriously, why is someone who’s 3/4 white and 1/4 black considered “black”, but someone who’s 7/8 white and 1/8 black considered “white”?

[Darwin_s_Finch]

*Originally posted by Halogen *
2. On Steven Jay Gould, by a serious Harvard psychologist. http://www.wcotc.com/euvolution/articles/gould01.html

From that article:

The fact is, of course, that I have never “asserted” (Webster: “assert implies stating confidently without need for proof or regard for evidence”) that IQ differences between any races are largely inherited. Nor have I ever claimed that the well-established heritability of individual differences in IQ within races proves the heritability of differences between races.

[…]

Nowhere in the cited reference (Jensen, 1980a) (or in any other publication) have I ever erred by inferring genetic causation of racial differences from the g factor or any other use off actor analysis, and nowhere have I “claimed” an “innate deficiency” of intelligence in blacks. My position on this question is clearly spelled out in my most recent book: “The plain fact is that at present there exists no scientifically satisfactory explanation for the differences between the IQ distributions in the black and white populations. The only genuine consensus among well-informed scientists on this topic is that the cause of the difference remains an open question” (Jensen, 1981a, p. 213).

[…]

No study of the correlation between brain size and intelligence, to my knowledge, has applied the necessary methodology based on sibling data (explicated by Jensen, 1980b) to rule out mere assortative genetic correlation between these variables. Until this is done, the theoretical significance of the correlation (whatever its magnitude may be) between brain size and IQ remains unknown.

[…]

I myself…have attempted in several publications from 1969 to 1982 to explicate the illogic of trying to prove the heritability of mean differences between groups from a knowledge of the heritability of individual differences within groups. I have also attempted over the years to dispel the common, but unwarranted, assumption that heritability necessarily implies the inevitability or immutability of human differences.

Let me guess: you never actually read that article, did you?

[Tars_Tarkas]

pfft. Rushton, what does he know? let’s use his own words against him in a fun game!!

From: Race, Intelligence, and the Brain: The Errors and Ommissions of the Revised Edition of S.J. Guold’s “The Mismeasure of Man” (warning, PDF file!)

Ignoring the obvious ad hominum attacks in the paper (which also chastises Guold for the same thing, interesting that he feels the rules don’t apply to him…) Rushton notes that “caucasians” has a larger brain mass, and tries to argue that makes them score better on IQ tests: “…a difference of 1 cubic inch in brain size translates into very non-trivial millions of neurons and hundreds of millions of synapes”

Then, later, when confronted with women with SMALLER brains scoring the same as the LARGER brained men, comes up with THREE excuses to try to pass it off!! So Larger brains only help when it supports his premise!!! (aka he’s manipulating data to arrive at the conclusion he has already drawn!)

[Tars_Tarkas]

D’oh! forgot to quote the three excuses!

“…difference in brain size relates to those intellectual abilities at which men excel”
“men average slightly higher in general intelligence than do women”
“differences in brains size have nothing to do with cognitive ability but reflect greater male muscle mass and physical co-ordination on tasks like throwing and catching”–Note: Wouldn’t that make black men have the biggest brains according to him?

[Alessan]

Sionnach, I’m curious - you’ve said you don’t like Jews, and that you hate American Zionists. So what about guys like me? What is your opinion on actual Israelis?

After all, by your standards, we’re a proud, ruthless warrior nation with a high level of education and a low level of crime. By your standards, while we don’t exactly believe in racial purity, we’re far more tribal and nationalisic than you Ameicans. By your standards, we live in our land by the holy, inviolate right of armed conquest. By your standards we’re perfect.

So what’s it gonna be? Why aren’t you kneeling at my feet in awe? Are you some kind of hypocrite or something?

[light_strand]

From Rushton’s own site: [PDF] How “Caucasoids” Got Such Big Crania and Why They Shrank- From Morton to Rushton From the aforementioned paper: page 11:

Obviously the groupings shown do not represent in any sense “pure types” and there is enormous racial and ethnic variation within almost every country; moreover, each country undoubtedly differs in the procedures used to collect and disseminate the crime figures. Certainly within each racial grouping are to be found countries reporting both high and low crime rates. The Philippines, for example, a country grouped as Mongoloid, reported one of the highest homicide rates in the world, 43 per 100,000 in 1984; Togo, a country grouped as Negroid, had the lowest reported crime rate in the world, a “rounded down” 0 per 100,000 in all 3 crime categories in 1984.

Thanks for the point by point analysis of the errors in Rushton’s theory. You’re quite the swell fella light bulb!

[monstro]

I’m more American than you, Sionnach.

My blood flows with African, European, and Native American blood. My ancestors were here generations before yours probably even heard of America. My skin is the color of toffee, my hair is bushy and thick. I have almond-shaped eyes and pronounced cheekbones.

I’m an American.

Take any of the Russian immigrants that live in my apartment building. Just-got-off-the-boat Russian who knows no English, no American “ways”. Are you saying he deserves to be here more than I do? Simply because his skin tone matches yours?

When Mexicans come over here and dominate the population, making whites (Anglos) the minority, are you going to leave? That’s ridiculous, right? Those Mexicans can’t come over here and claim a country like they OWN it, displacing the people and culture that have been here forever! How dare they!

Well, as someone who has indigenous ancestry, I say the same thing about you, arrogant white woman. You and “your kind” don’t own this land; we’re simplying borrowing it until the next conquistadors come. And if you don’t like this concept, then you can go sulk back over in Europe. If you hurry, you can probably find the house where your great-great-grandmammy lived.

When my slave ancestors were picking cotton, or laying down railroad track, or building the White House, were they toiling so that White Folks could have the country all to themself? When blacks were forced to fight in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and all the bloody wars of the 20th century–and then came home to be treated as non-Americans, non-humans–were they grinning and bearing it so Whitey could always be running things? So that this country–like those water fountains not that long ago–could be Whites Only? To force blacks to leave the country is to deny them of their inheritance. My ancestors toiled for centuries so that their descendants could claim this country as their own. How long did your ancestors have to toil? How much dignity did they have to sacrifice? Did they have to pay as high a price as mine did? Why shouldn’t I believe I’m more American than you? Why shouldn’t I believe this country belongs more to me than it does to ingrates like you?

[IzzyR]

Tars Tarkas: Could you clarify a bit?

1. Are Rushton’s measurements themselves in dispute, or only their interpretation?

2. I seem to recall that scientists use as one measure of the intelligence of a species the ratio of brain size to body size. If this holds true of humans, it would seem to make the comparison of men to women irrelevant. (I am aware that brain size is not a pure determinant of intelligence, but am under the impression that it is thought to have some impact).

3. I fail to understand your note in your most recent post. It should make black men have the biggest brains. Rushton’s point would then be that it still doesn’t, indicating a deficiency.

In general, I gather from comments by other posters that Rushton is considered some sort of quack. (See also tom’s post above). OTOH, I once read a NYT article in which he was quoted respectfully. What is your take?

monstro, that was quite well written and eloquent.

[Sionnach]

Sionnach, I’m curious - you’ve said you don’t like Jews, and that you hate American Zionists. So what about guys like me? What is your opinion on actual Israelis?

After all, by your standards, we’re a proud, ruthless warrior nation with a high level of education and a low level of crime. By your standards, while we don’t exactly believe in racial purity, we’re far more tribal and nationalisic than you Ameicans. By your standards, we live in our land by the holy, inviolate right of armed conquest. By your standards we’re perfect.

So what’s it gonna be? Why aren’t you kneeling at my feet in awe? Are you some kind of hypocrite or something?

My opinion of actual Israelis is extremely low. Your entire nation is nothing but a parasite sucking the tax dollars out of another nation. If all the Jews would actually go to Israel and stop demanding money from other nations, I would be indifferent to it. As of now, the only reason I don’t think you all should perish in a nuclear holocaust is because Palestinians would be hit too.

[Sionnach]

Oy vey!

It looks like the ‘Chosen’ need more money!

LoL! Some proud, ruthless warrior nation! More like a country full of narcissistic welfare brats! Your country would be nothing without the US propping you up. Nothing.

[Tars_Tarkas]

Real brief reply for Izzy as i have to go to language lab. I probably won’t get back to this until tomorrow, but maybe someone else will pick up where i leave off (or explain what i mess up in this post)

About the skull measurements:
From light strand’s link:

Stephen J. Gould (1981) explains the methodological
errors that produced this order. Morton admitted only
three Hindu skulls to his “Caucasian” sample because
he considered the skulls of these people “probably
smaller than those of any other existing nation” (Morton
1839:261). His sample of American Indians was biased
by overrepresentation of smaller Inca/Peruvian crania
and the inclusion of only three large-brained Iroquois
skulls. For some populations, such as American Indians,
more of the crania were female, making for lower average
means, while for “Caucasians” more male skulls made
for larger mean cranial measurements. Gould comments
(p. 60) that Morton was probably unaware of his error,
since he explicitly described his samples.

The measurements themselves seem to be in dispute. Gould corrects them and the corrected table is in the link i provided with Rushton’s rebuttal. The difference given between men and women’s brains by Rushton is listed as 110 cm^3, which is more than the difference given between the largest brains and smallest brains listed in Gould’s table (1427 to 1361, or 66 cm^3). If brain size down to the cm^3 matters so much for his thesis in one area, then why does it seem like it doesn’t in the case of women?

2. I seem to recall that scientists use as one measure of the intelligence of a species the ratio of brain size to body size. If this holds true of humans, it would seem to make the comparison of men to women irrelevant. (I am aware that brain size is not a pure determinant of intelligence, but am under the impression that it is thought to have some impact).

in the same species, the differences are inconsequential enough that it would be irrelevant. A 300 pound man would rate as below in intelligence when compared to an 180 pound man if they had the same brain size, as their body ratio would differ. Does anyone remember anything about Einstein having larger blood vessels in his brain? or am i disremembering facts? If true, that might have something to do with it more than actual brain size.

The reference to black men having the bigger brains is a jab at the “Black people make better athletes due to genetics” argument, since one theory is the larger brain mass allows more coordination, then all the black athletes should have an enlarged area of the brain.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by Sionnach *
As of now, the only reason I don’t think you all should perish in a nuclear holocaust is because Palestinians would be hit too.

Well you’ve been increasingly reluctant to back up your views, but it’s good that you are becoming less coy about expressing them. Tell us how you really feel.

[David_B]

Libertarian said:

I apologize for David’s behavior.

You have no right to do any such thing. You have no right to speak for me in any way, shape, or form – and don’t ever forget it. You want to go suck up to the Nazi, have fun, but don’t mention my name in the process.

I also find it extremely ironic that you later said:

The only thing I asked her to define (way back in the Pit) was “jewspeak”. She still hasn’t.

When I pressed for an answer to my question, you had a temper tantrum and claimed that she had answered it. When I asked you to apologize for stating a falsehood, you sulked and refused. Now you are going after the same issue. I would laugh if your behavior in this thread wasn’t so sad.

I don’t know exactly what’s gotten into you here. To me, it looks like you had a little hissy fit because I had the nerve to come into what you perceived as your thread where you could debate with your little white supremacist discovery. (As if a real honest-to-goodness debate was ever going to take place with somebody like this.) I purposely avoided responding to a couple of your messages before this one because I didn’t think it would be productive to continue to argue while the greater evil is still spouting nonsense. But I guess you didn’t like the fact that I had a little fun in your thread. Get over it and grow up.

If you decide you’d like to handle this like an adult, feel free to e-mail me.