White people: do you have black friends? (and vice versa)

In My Humble Opinion
81

My whole life I’ve had white friends. Even in middle school and high school–when kids tend to segregate themselves racially–I had white friends. Sleep-overs, birthday parties, 12th grade prom date–white kids. As a kid, I also had black friends. But now everyone in my social circle is white. This is mainly because I don’t socialize much outside of work, and all of my coworkers are white.

Sorry, but I think you are. I’m trying to find an instance where anyone has said anything negative about “white English” and I can’t.

It’s already been addressed, but “white English” doesn’t equal “standard English”. I had a white friend from rural Pennsylvania whose English was no more “standard” than that of someone fully entrenched in AAVE. (In fact, our boss was always riding her ass about it). Her language was dotted with vernacular that I had never heard of, and her pronounciations of many words were not aligned with mine. But I never felt the need to cast judgement on her. I never thought she was lazy or uneducated or rebelling against assimilation. I understood her and she understood me and that was all it took for a friendship to spring up.

I also think some people mistake AAVE/Ebonics with accent or intonation. I remember a few years back during a mayoral election in ATlanta. Two black guys were running, one Ivy-league educated and the other more “home grown”. I heard a classmate comment that he wouldn’t be voting for the latter since he “couldn’t talk right”. The guy spoke standard English (his grammar and syntax were all “standard”) but his accent was “black”, for lack of a better word. The same idea has been expressed about Al Sharpton on this board. Al Sharpton is, in my opinion, an articulate guy (politics aside). No, he doesn’t speak like a white guy, but he’s not mealy-mouthed. He’s just as eloquent as Colin Powell, just in a different style. It seems to me that there is a hint of racism (or, at the very least, snobbism) when people sniff their noses simply at the way a person says a word.

I’m veering off-topic a bit, but I just wanna say this right quick. I think it’s an common misconception that black kids just don’t want to use “proper English”. I don’t think that’s true. I think they have a problem with stereotypical “white” English. Malcolm X used standard English as a weapon and he’s lionized by black people. He was eloquent, but on his own terms. He did not adopt the speaking style of the white establishment. Neither did Martin Luther King. I attended a high school that was 60% black. Almost all the elected leadership positions were held by black students–kids who were generally well-liked and respected. And they were also quite eloquent speakers of standard English. How could that be, if black youth are adamant about speaking “lazy”? My hypothesis is that these kids were able to stay popular because they retained the style of speaking used in their culture. In this way, they “kept it real”.

82

I live in a town where, statistically, I shouldn’t have any friends who aren’t white. But I do have one black friend, one latino friend, one who’s an Israeli by birth and Brazilian by ethnicity (long story), and one Iranian Muslim who’s somewhere between a friend and an aquaintance.

83

Thanks Omega Glory, MessyPaint, and eleanorigby for your comments upthread.

eleanorigby, I’m not sure what you’re thinking I’m trying to shoe-horn you into. I just have to admit to being pretty surprised that not speaking English in a grammatically correct way at all times is a hindrance to friendship. Again, because my experience is that very few people in my life speak highly correct English at all times, that threw me for a loop. I think it’s fine to determine your own criteria for friendship… and I fully support your right to do so.

monstro is also correct to note some of the most corrupted English I’ve heard comes from the mouths of White people. When I first came to Boston I would be in a bar and literally only understand every fifth word because of accent, inflection, and rapidity. I’m much more used to it now. I even have a friend from Worcester (Woos-tah) with a fairly thick accent… he’s a great person and I think his accent’s charming. Having lived in Texas, Florida, and Georgia, there are some folks equally incomprehensible to my ears as well. But I figure if they are members of a community and they’re understood by those folks, it’s all good.

Regarding the music thing… I’m just making the point that as a kid and a teenager, I railed against prog rock, heavy metal, country, “quiet storm” R&B, classical music, musicals… basically because I was reacting to stereotypes in those genres. Given the opportunity to explore on my own, or being exposed to afficiandos of those styles of music, I found music I could at least appreciate for the technique, cleverness, or originality behind it. I recently bought Brad Paisley’s song “Alcohol” - the last country purchase I made was probably a Little Texas CD back in college - because the song is hilarious and freakin’ clever as hell. I’m not going to tune the radio in to country stations, but I certainly found an artist that has the same talent with words as someone like Chuck D does. I kind of see it as a challenge now - if there’s a genre that I find objectionable, I have to question if I’ve really heard enough to make that statement. Some of the artists I respect the most are constantly sampling different genres so I often follow their lead (thank you, Sting, though there is no excuse for you performing with P. Diddy - none).

Hip-hop can be looked at as the most recent American-born form of music that has variants all over the world, different political lenses… I freely admit that I haven’t bought a rap CD in years, but there is amazing stuff coming out of Europe, out of Africa, hell, out of parts of the US that bear checking out. I bet if you gave me ten of your favorite artists I could probably find a hip-hop artist that links well with that artist…

I can also relate to frustrations about inter-office communication, but even at the elite institutions of higher education in this country professors and students alike demonstrate crappy grammatical, spelling, and composition skills. One of my profs is brilliant and a world-respected scholar in his field, but if you assessed him from his e-mail you’d think he was a high school student. I regularly grade papers that I fill with edit marks because of the poor construction, spelling, word choice, etc. from the best of the best… I’ve changed my thinking about people being morons for not writing well to understanding that writing well is really difficult. Speaking might be the same way… but again, if I get what you’re trying to say, I’m not as bothered if you split infinitives, or end sentences in prepositions, or call it a “WC” or “bog,” for instance.
Last point… similar to the point monstro made about Al Sharpton, I’ve actually heard well-spoken Black people with strong accents and had White people complain that they didn’t understand them. My thing is, maybe those folks should get out and experience the diversity of English speakers. As a kid in the UK, I regularly heard Yorkshire, Merseyside, Geordie, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and Cockney accents on TV… maybe that’s why I don’t typically have a problem with strong accents?

84

Hmmmmm…I don’t think he’s saying anything like that. For me, it has to do with attitude, not color. If a person behaves in an uneducated “rough” way, whether a white OR black “ghetto-speaking” type, redneck doofi, or what have you, I too would be (at least momentarily til I got to know the “real” them) taken aback and not as likely to respect, or even like them.

To me, it has way more to do with youth and rebellion than color. I don’t see a whole lot of people my age doing the whole ghetto thing, or clueless country redneck thing, not in the professional realm anyway.

Willingness to behave in a respectful and articulate manner is generally a positive character trait. How a person makes him or herself understood to others does matter regardless of color.

85

EVERYONE, (even Ensign)

Apologies all around. I surely didn’t intend to create this much upheaval. I’m sorry.

I AM a snob. I admit it. But I do have the right to choose the people that I befriend, and I choose to associate myself with people that ARE kinda like me. Working hard to raise a family; trying to influence my children in the best ways possible for their future and trying to provide a positive role-model to said kids.

I don’t see personal superiority at all. Perhaps “lingual” superiority in the field of grammatically correct English. I read a lot but never went to college so am proud of my abilities when it comes to constructing intelligent and compelling documents. It’s a perk for me and part of my “perfectionist” personality. It’s also a heavy draw when it comes to looking for Admin jobs. I have the ability to take chicken scratch and turn it into a letter that would make my former teachers proud.

That is all. I just think that my grammatical skills are good. I’m proud of them. Sorry if it seems I think I’m a better person in general because of it. Not the case.

Again, I’m sooo sorry for derailing this thread.

Can’t we all just get along? : )

86

My point–which perhaps I’m not expressing well–is that all of that is a given. No one goes out of their way to make friends with someone who has traits that they find to be off-putting. Whether that be the use of excessive curse words, having “rough” attitudes, worshiping the devil, refusing to pracitice good hygiene, beating one’s wife, sleeping with relatives, etc. To emphasize that you don’t like anyone who speaks “ghetto” in the middle of a discussion about friendships with black people is a signal that a person thinks this particular trait–which happens to be a stereotype that follows black people around whereever they go (and what is “ghetto talking” anyway?)–is a property of blackness and not of socioeconomics, home-training, and/or environment.

RSSchen’s neighbor may very well be a Harvard grad from a New England surburb. Why would she speak “ghetto”? Oh, because she’s black. Of course. :rolleyes:

The website blackpeopleloveus.com makes fun of the tendency of many white people to praise their “black friends” for things that are accepted as a matter of course in other people. It’s a funny website because, unfortunately, it rings so true. Humor-impaired or not, everyone should check it out.

87

<sigh> monstro and hippy hollow --I don’t think you’ve read my posts here thoroughly. My distaste for poor language skills knows no racial bounds. I dislike people saying things like, “he did good” etc–if you read my posts, I speak of both white and black people doing things like this. It grates on my nerves. If methods of speech grate on my nerves, it’s unlikely that further intimacy, aka friendship, will grow, given that spoken communication is our main basis for friendship. I may love you to death, but if I can’t talk to you or understand you–there isn’t much there.

I read in this thread a sense of the elevation of the mediocre–hey, it’s ok to speak poorly and not use appropriate grammar. Um, no, it’s not. Commonality does not make it right. We all use slang to communicate–my problem comes when only slang is used to do so.
An educated person (self taught or not) knows when to use slang and when to clean up their speech. I also judge people on the “roughness” of their speech–black, white or other. If you were born here, and English is your first language, I expect you to be able to communicate in that language–this is shocking to people? I mentioned Ebonics, but I also mentioned the Chicago-ese that folks that live in Hegwish and nearby speak: it grates on my ears and they all sound ignorant and boorish.
It’s more a function of class (which I mentioned in my first post), than race. This thread is about race, but I was trying to explain my position. Ah, well. Here we are. Tallking past one another to no good purpose.

I, in turn, find it hard to believe that hippy doesn’t know people who speak “highly correct English” all the time. Most people I know do so, and do so fluently and often. I have a black friend (I’d make a token joke here, but am concerned that it would not be seen as a joke; I am convinced that snobbery is equated wth bigotry at least in this thread)–she and her husband, and their two kids: none of them speak “street” or slang. They are both college educated (although that’s no guarantee for anyone)–maybe it’s because they come from Colorado(?). I dunno-but they speak the same I way I do. And (here I’m gonna play with fire)–I’ll bet there are blacks who say that these folks are black enough–about makes you want to cry, no? The dilemma: to take pride in yourself and yet still maintain a connection to elemental racial and cultural identity. One way is code-switching, already mentioned.
At this point, I am getting lost in a topic that is huge and can be difficult to discuss without hurt feelings. I’ll stop now.

Keep in mind, that this is in IMHO and what I am referring to is my preference, not the Way Things Should Be. I am bowing out of this now, this thread solves nothing and proves nothing.

88

Ah, crap–that should say, “there are some blacks who say that these folks are NOT black enough”. Lousy typist, sorry.

89

(bolding mine)

No. There will always be some collection of idiots who say silly things, and since you have no evidence that anyone has even challenged their blackness, I especially have no reason to want to cry. It’s quite possible that when they are around you and others like you, they use a form of speaking that is accessible to you. But when they are at a family reunion or other predominately black functions, they code-switch as Hippy Hollow described. Code-switching doesn’t automatically mean peppering your speech with slang and ending your sentences with prepositions. Code-switching includes accent, as well. Softing “th” sounds and contracting “ings”. But it’s also likely that they don’t code-switch. Who knows and who cares?

Would hearing a “black” accent bother you or are you only troubled by incorrect grammar and slang? What I commonly see is white people complaining that blacks mispronouce words, but give whites a pass for the same type of offenses because “that’s how Bostonians say that,” for example. It’s probably because blacks get a lot of grief for their differences that we have become the masters of code-switching. Because we know people look down on us for sounding different than the mainstream.

90

I guess we all have our buttons. Yours is obviously language. I consider myself to be a pretty educated person, someone who cares about effective communition and conscientious presention, but I’m fairly tolerate of language quirks. Saying “He did good” is no more or less effective than “He did well”. For me, in the informal realm of friendship, effective communication is all that matters. Not following arbitrary rules.

I sense discomfort from your responses, as if you feel that you’ve been unfairly jumped on. I really don’t think the defensive stance is needed, as we aren’t really arguing about anything. For myself, I was providing a different perspective more than challenging what you were saying. I think unneccessary defensiveness is what usually derails discussions on race.

Of course you have the right. I have the right to choose my friends among fellow Ph.Ds, excluding people like yourself who didn’t go to college. And others have the right to judge me for being a snob and for judging people superficially. Having the right doesn’t make it right.

I appreciate your apology, which I can tell is truly sincere.

91

And lack of relating understanding of another POV also derails conversations, and not just of race. I tried. I see no reason to apoloigze or feel bad or whatever for disliking the butchering of the English language-no matter who does it. Again, dislike of the vernacular does not translate into support for poor treatment of those who speak that way. Just saying.

you with the face --as I have said, ad nauseam, it’s not just about speaking “black”–uneducated people sound uneducated, no matter their racial make up. To say that some blacks are not called out by other blacks for being “too white” or not “black enough” is ridiculous–even in my limited exposure to African-Americans via work, the Tavis Smiley Show and others, I have seen this happen–i think it sucks. If you want an example of the same peer pressure in whites, look to the movie, Working Girl --where Melanie Griffith (I think) looks to get ahead and to do so, changes her mode of speech, as well as her way of dressing and her body language. She is called on it as well–by the people and friends in her old neighborhood. It happens to anyone that wants to move up or down the SES scale-it is heightened in minorities because of the history of racial divide in this country. This ain’t rocket science.
Truly, I am done now, still feeling marginalized because I believe in standards–what a notion. :rolleyes:

92

Yeah it sucks, but as I’m fond of saying on this board as of late–so what? The family that you mentioned may or may not get challenged on their blackness, but for some reason you invited everyone to feel sorry them based on some pre-supposed idea that they are. Just because I reject that invitation doesn’t mean I dispute the notion that some black people have a problem with other blacks speaking “white”. As I said before, there are idiots everywhere that will say silly things.

Case in point: some white people give other white people a hard time because they don’t conform to what is deemed appropriate white behavior. These nonconformists are often called “wiggers”. Oh the humanity, right?

I see what monstro is talking about. Just because we haven’t agreed with everything that you are writing doesn’t mean you should feel marginalized. Relax a little, please. The conversation has been pretty civil.

93

Oy. I did not ask anyone to pity my black college educated friends who don’t speak ghetto or street. Stop reading stuff into my posts and I’ll stop getting irritated. I actually said what you just said–that some folks might just call them out for their “lack of blackness”. I deplore that calling out, as do you (I think–who knows?).

I have never heard of “wiggers”–but hey, that’s my ignorance. Seems to me that a whole lot of people are overly concerned with other people’s business, no?

I don’t need anyone here to agree with me–but straight up disagreement would be easier to accept than pussyfooting around that disagreement. It’s all a matter of opinion, any way, unless someone is advocating legislation against poor grammar or even good grammar etc. And as you so eloquently said, “so what?” which sums up my aggravation with this thread.
It is almost impossible to talk about this kind of stuff online, without facial expression, body language, intonation and emotion–it is too easy to misconstrue stuff. I admit freely that I am touchy about this–I am teased for being one of two white nurses at work(“you’re really black under that pale skin; why else would you work here?” is a typical comment made to me), and I’m heartily sick of it. I like my co-workers fine, but I don’t want to be a “sistah”, thankyouverymuch. I refuse to explain myself here-take it as you will. If it makes you see me as a racist bigot, I am sorry for you, but won’t defend myself anymore.

And to the OP, my apologies for such a grievous hijack. Note to self: don’t bother trying to discuss this stuff online.

94

Is there any speech pattern you like or consider non-mediocre/uneducated outside of WASPy-accented English? I say this only because most of the well-educated Indians and Africans I know speak excellent British English, seeing as India and several African countries happened to be former colonies, and the only “pattern” that I think you’d have to “look past” would be an accent that may affect the manner in which people enunciate, adjust their vocal rhythms (flow of a conversation) or pronounce words. English happens to be my 3rd language, though the one I use the most, and yet I continue to stress and pronounce certain words differently seeing as I learned French and Konkani before I picked up English. This hardly makes me mediocre or uneducated. Though I am having a good laugh thinking of you pitying all those filthy rich doctors for their mediocrity. I wonder, would you like people to think of you as mediocre because you’re a nurse and not a doctor?

95

You seem really intent on playing the poor, misunderstood victim here. No one is asking you to apologize or trying to marginalize you. You offered your opinion and we’re simply offering ours. Who’s asking you to feel ashamed?

Everyone has their basic criteria for who would make a good friend and who wouldn’t. I personally don’t get the language hang-up, but that doesn’t mean I think people should make friends with whomever they bump into. It also doesn’t mean that I think people who DO have language hang-ups are bigoted, racist, or any other thing. Sometimes I feel that people who are overly critical of language need to lighten the hell up, but guess what? If I met a language-maven like yourself, I wouldn’t cross them out as a friend. That’s what I think other posters are sensing from your and RSSchen’s posts. That absolute “I CAN’T BE YOUR FRIEND IF YOU DON’T TALK LIKE ME” attitude. Isn’t that the same attitude that people decry in black youth?

I get nervous when I speak, and I think this is partially due to the fact that white people throughout my life have tended to be overly focused on my speaking skills. I’ll never forget the time when I recited something in front of the whole fifth grade class, and a classmate’s mother singled me out afterwards for “speaking so clearly”. Later, in college and graduate school, people would tell me about how “articulate” I am. How “well” I speak. It’s like white folks have giant ears constantly tuned to my speech patterns, and they’re waiting for me to fail their Test of Articulateness. If I stumble, will they think I’m “ghetto”? If they hear me talking to another black person and I let slip a “You crazy” or an expression they’ve never heard of, will they discount my advanced degrees and commitment to success? Will they be suspicious of my assimilation? Will they laugh because I didn’t pronounce “kill”, “pill”, and “hill” the right way? Will they cast aspersions on my accent while ignoring their own? Will I fail to get ahead in life simply because I don’t sound like a white woman when I open my mouth?

Will people stop being my friend?

There are black people who judge others unfairly based on the way they speak. But there are plenty of white people who do the same thing.

And before you get defensive, eleanorigby, I’m talking in generalities, not about you or your situation. I’m just sharing a point-of-view you may not be familiar with in an effort to continue the interesting dialogue.

So pretty please, no rolly eyes?

96

no rolly eyes. Just frustrated that I think I tend to agree with most of what is said here, but also want to convey that standards ARE important and DO matter–perhaps they shouldn’t, but they do. Perhaps if you stopped characterizing me as me portraying myself as “victim” here, I would be less likely to roll my eyes. Jeebus–listen to yourself sometime, ok? There are no victims in this thread–I have just felt unheard, or worse, unlistened to. There is a difference.

As for the other post re British English etc–I covered that. If English is your second or third or fifth language–first of all, I am awed by your liguistic ability and dont’ mind an accent one bit. It may make communication difficult at times (the Filipinos consistently mis-identify pronouns; they mix up him and her etc all the time. No biggie, but when you are getting report on a pt who has a unisex name and they call him a her and then a him, it gets confusing. A minor manner, just pointing it out).

Where did I say that I consider Indian(or insert other minority here) doctors mediocre? Where did I say anything that could be construed like that? I have no problem with accents–except when they are so thick as to make communication impaired. But in that case, patience and a sense of humor works well for all concerned. And since you brought it up, nurses get the whole “you’re bright, you should have been a doctor” alot from everyone (except docs, strangely enough). The job category is not usually regarded as mediocre–neither is doctoring, but YMMV. :confused:

monstro -I think that we may be closer in agreement than we think–perhaps your uber-self-consciousness when it comes to speaking makes you defensive as well? I know that I have been “called on it” when I slip and say something like, “I’m down with that”. I am accused with either wanting to be black or of mocking blacks. JeezoPete–I was just talking. It has become difficult for me to feel comfortable at work due to stuff like this–and I resort to proper English, to ensure clear communication. (I really don’t use terms like “down with that” at all–it just seemed to fit at the time; I was wrong in that asssessment. Live and learn)

We can all meet here and work out our lil neuroses…(joke).

97

Getting back to the OP… I had black friends in college, but over 95% of people in NH are white, and less than 1% black (.7% according to Wiki) so there’s not a lot of opportunity to meet black people, much less befriend them. Even the MA cities I lived in didn’t have many black folks (3-5%) despite having large Hispanic/Latin populations. Odd, isn’t it?

98

My high school in the rural South was maybe 20% black. I was friendly with (and would call “friends”) most of the black students. A stricter standard would include only my close friends - buddies I would invite over to my house, or with whom I would get together and play pickup ball or go catch a movie or just hang out on a regular basis. Out of that group of 25 or so guys there were 5 or 6 black guys.

As an independent adult in Atlanta, I would say a strict standard would include only those folks I have invited into my home on a regular basis, or vice-versa. A mental head count gives me 6 (a smaller percentage of my friends than when I was in high school - don’t know why).

99

Well, for me and in my experience, I wouldn’t look at it that way. It is true that many young people (whites too) have adopted that ghetto slang. More young black people than young whites though.

I don’t know their culture very well(the young angry black inner city kids, not referring to blacks in general), but from the little that those young folks have explained to me. I did a stint as a substitute teacher in Texas, and the kids were all curious enough about a furriner, even though to me it’s “just” Alaska, that they were willing to open up about cultural feelings and actitivities specific to them and their race.

Based upon what many of those kids said and from what I’ve seen and heard in interviews, it is often an indirect passive aggressive “get whitey” before he gets us behaviour. Other than that, it makes them feel both apart, different, special and as if they have their “own” identity, not corporate America’s.

Sorry, I said all that to say this, (I do have a point really :D). Based upon that, you wouldn’t know just from meeting a person of color if they were basically the same as you, or politically and socially very different (as the kids I described above were), UNTIL they opened their mouth. I think that’s what the poster meant, that IF faced with that (that being ghetto slang), they would likely feel a bit taken aback and put off a bit.

But more in a “we have little common ground” way, than “Oh those black people way” I would think.

I hope that makes sense.

100

I regret that my only black friends have not only been roommates, but that all three have turned out to be, um, bad. One drove my car until the wheel fell off and didn’t pay the landlord and was evicted, and the other two turned evil on me, and unfortunately, I’m not be hyperbolic with that term. I’m still considering filing small claims court on one of them. [Sigh]