White people: do you have black friends? (and vice versa)

[Ins_Outs_What-have-yous]

I am a pale white guy, but I’ve had my share of black friends (Asian friends too for that matter). I’m not certain what is meant by ‘vice versa’ in the thread title.

Growing up in Charleston, WV:

-Two black friends as a child in elementary school; as in, we regularly hung out we during recess and after school.

-I’d count about 6 in junior high and high school. I still keep in touch with 3 of them. Also, among my very best friends in HS was a mixed race guy and I mean very mixed. For this reason, he obtained the nickname ‘Chex Mix.’ His father is of Irish, British, Russian, German, Italian, and Native American decent while his mother is of Hispanic, African, pacific islander, and Chinese decent. Chex Mix was (well…still is) an awesome drummer and would shake his huge afro as he played. I suppose I count him as being black; he certainly didn’t ‘look’ white.

-In college, I had about a dozen black friends. Most of them were/are collegiate athletes. Those who count as friends are the ones who hung out and drank beer with me and my roommates and other friends and were at least semi-regulars hanging out in my residence on the weekends. Without going into too much detail, let me just say…they knew how to party…wow. I was quite impressed the first time I saw an offensive lineman down 50 beers in one sitting.

Overall, there are prevailing cultural differences between African-Americans and other races. I find it especially noticeable at weddings and funerals where most in attendance are black. A black funeral was like a celebration in my experience; the congregation was cheerfully singing about how God had taken a taken a soul into heaven. At weddings, it seemed as if they danced their way up the aisle.

Beyond the 18 or so blacks I’ve been friends with at one time or another, I’ve certainly been on friendly terms w/ other black people, but just never got to know them very well. Same goes for countless white folk as well of course.

I remember from several years ago that my anthropology 101 professor contended that race has no biological or scientific basis…or something to that effect. However, culturally and visually I suppose it’s only a natural instinct to notice that each person is are darker than/lighter than/or similar to those around him/her. Friends of mine are those of at least some similar interest regardless of ‘race.’

[you_with_the_face]

@CanvasShoes

Based upon that, you wouldn’t know just from meeting a person of color if they were basically the same as you, or politically and socially very different (as the kids I described above were), UNTIL they opened their mouth.

You wouldn’t know if a white person was the same as you, either, right? Everyone starts off as a wildcard until they open their mouth, not just black folk. Some degree of commonality is a prerequisite for ANY friendship to bloom, regardless of race. This is a given.

I understand what you’re saying and I’m not being argumentative for the sake of such, just in case you’re thinking that. Do you see what I’m saying, though? I’m taking issue with what seems to be a whole lot of extra emphasis on things that are actually universal to all human interactions, not just to interracial ones.

Ostensibly, anyone who is educated would seek friends with other educated people, so there is no need to say “all my black friends went to college,” in order to get us to understand how you happened to be friends with them. Ostensibly, anyone who values good grammar and abstinence from slang would seek friends who exhibit those practices, so it’s actually kind of an insult (as a black woman) to see someone stress that when it comes to black people, only ones who “talk right” are worthy of befriending. This kind of emphasis is what I find bothersome, not the mere existence of these criteria. Its a subtle reminder that people will always think of you as a racial stereotype until you prove otherwise.

That’s why I asked RSSchen how her black friend would react if she told her that they wouldn’t be friends if she spoke “ghetto talk”. Because I can’t imagine that would make her friend feel as if RSSchen viewed her as anything other than the exception to some ill-conceived rule that says blacks by default speak “ghetto slang”.

I think that’s what the poster meant, that IF faced with that (that being ghetto slang), they would likely feel a bit taken aback and put off a bit.

I understand what she meant, honestly. That didn’t go over my head at all. It makes sense, since its so noncontroversial on its face. I just found it to be offensive in what it implicitly communicated and I’m not 100% sure you understand why. Perhaps its a stigmatized minority thing.

[eleanorigby]

@you with the face

You wouldn’t know if a white person was the same as you, either, right? Everyone starts off as a wildcard until they open their mouth, not just black folk. Some degree of commonality is a prerequisite for ANY friendship to bloom, regardless of race. This is a given.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but you are exactly right–this is my point. If what comes out of your mouth indicates that you are ignorant of common parts of speech, than I am less likely to befriend you–no matter your race/gender/age etc. Note I said befriend-that doesn’t mean I won’t like you or treat you badly or legislate against you; it means I won’t expect a deeper friendship between us. I still don’t see anything wrong with this–why become close to a punk rocker, if you’re passion is opera? That is not a judgement against punk rockers, it’s just people being different.

I understand what you’re saying and I’m not being argumentative for the sake of such, just in case you’re thinking that. Do you see what I’m saying, though? I’m taking issue with what seems to be a whole lot of extra emphasis on things that are actually universal to all human interactions, not just to interracial ones.

Ostensibly, anyone who is educated would seek friends with other educated people, so there is no need to say “all my black friends went to college,” in order to get us to understand how you happened to be friends with them.

yes! And I agree again. To emphasize that the minority friends went to college is to marginalize them, at least in part. I see this and understand this.

Ostensibly, anyone who values good grammar and abstinence from slang would seek friends who exhibit those practices, so it’s actually kind of an insult (as a black woman) to see someone stress that when it comes to black people, only ones who “talk right” are worthy of befriending. This kind of emphasis is what I find bothersome, not the mere existence of these criteria. Its a subtle reminder that people will always think of you as a racial stereotype until you prove otherwise.

No- I disagree. I am a language snob, admittedly, but I don’t see how this translates into seeing blacks only one way–what baggage comes with speaking “black”? That would depend on the part of the country you (and the listener) come from, the age of both, perhaps the gender, and the SES as well. All blacks, as you know, do not speak in the same vernacular. Which one fits your stereotype? I am not taking your comments personally, just putting my opinion out there.

I understand what she meant, honestly. That didn’t go over my head at all. It makes sense, since its so noncontroversial on its face. I just found it to be offensive in what it implicitly communicated and I’m not 100% sure you understand why. Perhaps its a stigmatized minority thing.

Now who’s playing the victim? I mean that kindly and half jokingly–but truly–do you see yourself as such? You said you were self conscious of your speech-are you using street slang at all times, even in professional settings? Do you use language and vocabulary to make people feel out of the loop? Do you exaggerate your speech to highlight differences between you and your audience or listener? If not, then I don’t see a problem.

I have a feeling that we have not only been “talking” at cross purposes, but that I have misunderstood much of your side. For that, my apologies–my “beef” has always been with those who act as I described in the last paragraph, and I don’t think I was clear about that. I think you misunderstood me to be referring to all blacks or minorities, but I was not. Am I close to right here?

[eleanorigby]

Gah-- I did it again. That’s YOUR not you’re in the above post… :o

[TwoOnSunday]

Line up my friends and you have UN-style representation.

[Ender_Will]

I have one black friend and numerous hispanic friends, one of whom is a roommate. Admittedly, my town is about 30% (According to the census. That seems low to me) hispanic and less than 2% black. One of my best friends in grade school was also black, but we ended up going to different junior highs and high schools, so we sort of drifted apart.

I’m going to agree with the previous posts which said that friends are more a result of common interests, education and location than race.

[MizGrand]

@you with the face

That’s why I asked RSSchen how her black friend would react if she told her that they wouldn’t be friends if she spoke “ghetto talk”. Because I can’t imagine that would make her friend feel as if RSSchen viewed her as anything other than the exception to some ill-conceived rule that says blacks by default speak “ghetto slang”.

The ill-conceived rule you mention is unfortunately the norm where I live. I would have to talk to every person I met to determine if the “rule” rang true. I don’t have that kind of time to interview random people. This observation is made via the mall, the grocery store, the library, my son’s preschool, etc. It seems that the majority of black folk here talk like that. Not all, just lots. If I saw that most white people I came into contact with spoke like a redneck, I’d be able to ascertain that to be the norm, but only where I live. And I sure as hell wouldn’t be choosing those folks to be my friends.

Given a choice, I would choose a person with similar lingual stylings as a friend. As I mentioned, even my husband didn’t fall into that neat little hole at the start. I didn’t dismiss him immediately because of the way he talked. And it was definitely with poor grammar and enunciation. I MARRIED the guy for goodness sakes!

I will share a humiliation with you here. A few years ago I was in a store and was lost. I approached the security guard (a black man) and accidentally talked a bit well, off, to his ears. He confronted me with an incredulous “why are you talking to me like that” and I had to stop and think. I was simply joking with him and trying to self-deprecate since I was so lost. He made me think seriously about the way I talk to people, and it’s been in the back of my head just about each time I need to chat with someone new. I learned a lesson that day. Don’t assume anything until the facts are in your face.

[you_with_the_face]

@eleanorigby

No- I disagree. I am a language snob, admittedly, but I don’t see how this translates into seeing blacks only one way–what baggage comes with speaking “black”? That would depend on the part of the country you (and the listener) come from, the age of both, perhaps the gender, and the SES as well. All blacks, as you know, do not speak in the same vernacular. Which one fits your stereotype?

I’m not sure what you are asking. Do you dispute that “ghettoness” is a stereotype that haunts black people, no matter their SES or educational level? Because it most certainly is. Whenever there is a thread about black people, inevitably there is someone who starts talking about how black people alienate themselves from the mainstream by exhibiting behaviors that are stereotypically associated with the “ghetto”, such as a certain type of slang, cursing, rudeness, violence, blah blah blah. But most black people are not this way; “ghetto behavior” is to black as “trailer park behavior” is to white. “Ghetto-ness” has more to do more with a subculture borne from urban poverty, not with being black.

So again, in a thread that asks whites to talk about their friendships with blacks, I was taken aback when the “ghetto” card was played. Yet. Again. Imagine how you would feel as a white person if your ethnicity was constantly paired up with “trailer park” stereotypes. It would certainly start to get on your nerves.

Now who’s playing the victim? I mean that kindly and half jokingly–but truly–do you see yourself as such?

I found something to be offensive and I explained why, but it doesn’t seem to be getting through. I noted that this might be because this is something that a member of a stigmatized minority (blacks, historically, fit the bill for this pretty nicely) can most easily appreciate. Is that the same thing as being a victim? No, it is not. It’s stating a fact, really. There are a lot of things you as a member of the majority will have a hard time understanding because you are use to seeing the world in a different way.

You said you were self conscious of your speech-are you using street slang at all times, even in professional settings?

monstro said this, not me, but I will answer for her because A) I know her quite well and B) I know what she’s talking about.

No she doesn’t use slang all the time. Her self consciousness comes from feeling like she’s under scrutiny when she speaks because whites are often overly critical about the words that come out of black people’s mouths. The damning with faint praise of “you’re so articulate!” that many whites tend to do is case in point. Of course she’s articulate. Why in the hell wouldn’t she be? The implication is that she’s something special because she’s a black woman who can put a complete sentence together using correct grammar and syntax. When someone says “you’re so articulate!” to you it has a way of making you feel self conscious, because God forbid you should stumble in the future. Then you’re suddenly not so articulate anymore. You’re “ghetto”, just like all the rest.

I have a feeling that we have not only been “talking” at cross purposes, but that I have misunderstood much of your side. For that, my apologies–my “beef” has always been with those who act as I described in the last paragraph, and I don’t think I was clear about that. I think you misunderstood me to be referring to all blacks or minorities, but I was not. Am I close to right here?

I know you’re not talking about all blacks. For me, I was simply (and I still am) unsure about where exactly your language dealbreakers stop. Is it just slang and incorrect grammar and is it other markers for difference, such as accent-derived pronounciations and intonation? It’s really easy to say that someone sounds uneducated just because they don’t sound refined to your ear. But there’s more to that than just slang and grammar. If all you’re concerned about is grammar and slang, I’ll take your word for it. It doesn’t really bother either way, I was just curious.

[you_with_the_face]

@RSSchen

The ill-conceived rule you mention is unfortunately the norm where I live. I would have to talk to every person I met to determine if the “rule” rang true. I don’t have that kind of time to interview random people. This observation is made via the mall, the grocery store, the library, my son’s preschool, etc. It seems that the majority of black folk here talk like that. Not all, just lots.

I say this nicely: you should probably get out more. I live in the DC area and in the circles I travel, most blacks are not “ghetto”. Confirmation bias probably contributes to your perceptions, too. And if you watch a lot of TV, especially MTV and BET, you will likely see a disproportionate number of images that reenforce this perception.

I understand that you can only talk about what you’re use to seeing. It’s important, though, that you don’t mistake your experiences as being representative of the greater norm. It’s easy to do this with minority groups.

Don’t assume anything until the facts are in your face.

Excellent lesson. But I’m surprised he didn’t say don’t assume anything because when you do you make an ass out of u and me.

[eleanorigby]

Not sure if it’s worth the trouble, but when I am called “articulate”, I take it as a compliment and feel no pressure to remain so. But then, I AM articulate. I don’t see why anyone, regardless of race, (if they are indeed articulate) would fear to not appear to be so in some undefined future meeting.

So, I guess I’m saying that I don’t get it. Ok, fair enough. But I do know that there is more to “trailer trash” than speech, just as there is more to “ghetto” than speech.

People make snap judgements all the time about people they see out and about–I heard someone say today (in Target): “they is going”. I mentally cringed. It’s not a big deal in the larger scheme of things, but to drag this hijack back to the OP, I wouldn’t become friends with such person. One of the things I dislike most about President Bush is his mangling of language–it ain’t folksy or down home to me-it’s ignorant and indicates stupidity (his shrewd political use of it notwithstanding).

Thanks for sticking with the conversation-I found it interesting. Hope you did too.

[Mister_Rik]

When I was five years old, my mom babysat a black boy who was a year younger than me. We called him “Little Dean”, because Dean is also my dad’s name. At that age, I don’t think it even registered on me that he was a different color.

I don’t recall any black kids in my grade school, but in junior high I had two black friends, one boy and one girl. I only remember there being three black kids in my grade at that school, so I guess I was doing all right being friends with two of them. Of course, they were both in the school band with me, so that helped. The three of us all happened to be clarinet players, too, and all three of us had switched instruments by 9th grade: Monica switched to bass clarinet, Tony to oboe, and I took up the bassoon. Monica was one of the people I sat with at lunch almost every day.

Tony once said something that is still one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard. It was a couple days before our first concert with the 7th grade band. The band teacher was reminding all of us that we needed to wear white shirts, black pants, black shoes and black socks (to go with the fugly gold blazer provided by the school).

Tony raised his hand and said, “But I don’t have any black socks!”

The band teacher said, “Well you’d better get some. If you’re not wearing black socks and everybody else is, you’re going to stick out like a sore thumb!”

Tony dramatically looked around the room at all of us white kids and then said to the teacher, “Um, I think I’m already gonna stick out …”

Not bad for a 12-year-old kid Now that I think about it, I don’t think Monica was in the band that year, so Tony was the only black kid.

As an adult, I’ve had several black friends, despite there being relatively few blacks in my town (not the same town I grew up in). I even had a black roommate for a while. Two of the black men I’ve been friends with were fellow musicians - one I performed with at open-mike sessions, and the other I played with at church. I used to drink beer and talk with an older black man when I was still drinking. I was friendly with a younger black man who was a customer at a bar/restaurant where I was working last year. That guy told me this joke: What do you call a black man flying an airplane? A pilot, you racist!

The biggest minority in my town is Mexican, and I’m friends with several of them.

[Lama_Pacos]

re: the OP, I rarely even encountered any black people as a child, growing up in Boston. The greater Boston area is, for the most part, very segregated, and growing up in a heavily white suburb, black people really were not within my social reach.

One of my closest friends has a black parent, though the friend identifies specifically as multiracial. I have a few mid-tier friends (i.e., higher than merely saying hi when passing them on the street and lower than having soul-baring conversations into the wee hours of the night [yeah, tiering friends is kind of sick, but come on, who doesn’t make mental stratifications of their friends?]) who are black. I wish I had more friends who were black-- in a non-tokenizing way-- because I feel the reason I have few black friends is not because I have less potential for friendship with black people, but because racial stratification in our society makes it so that I am more likely to get the chance to meet a given white person than a black person with identical personality and interests.

[MizGrand]

@you with the face

I say this nicely: you should probably get out more. I live in the DC area and in the circles I travel, most blacks are not “ghetto”. Confirmation bias probably contributes to your perceptions, too. And if you watch a lot of TV, especially MTV and BET, you will likely see a disproportionate number of images that reenforce this perception.

I take no offense at the suggestion I should get out more. That’s absolutely true. There’s so much of this country that I’ve never seen and what I have seen was as a young teen from the top window of a camper attached to a pick-up. Yes, yes, that does sound pretty trashy; what irony.

How funny you mention the media. That angle just popped into my head two minutes ago. Remember Good Times? Yes the father worked hard to maintain their lifestyle, but for unknown reasons, production took that opportunity in a ill-conceived direction. They could’ve been middle-class but to me it appeared that it was taken the opposite way for laughs. Redd Foxx hardly helped. Even George Jefferson never overcame the obstacles he found in Archie Bunker. If I stumble upon that show these days I’m utterly amazed and horrified. It would seem the stereotypes presented in media only perpetuated the negative and rarely even showed the real, or positive, side. It was all for the laughs of America.

Then you have the Cosby Show. This was one of my favorite shows. I was able to imagine myself there with the character. They were like me. God, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve laughed at the scene where Cliff is bouncing the kids on his knee. Smart, successful and had a very comfortable lifestyle. Now, isn’t that what most folks aspire to? We need more positive stuff presented for ALL races that are under-represented.

These days I’ve been enjoying watching the syndicated Bernie Mac show. Also Damon Wayans’ show. Are either of these families typical?

I, too, am drawn to this thread. I’m learning a lot, honestly. Thank you, you, monstro, et al., for the calling to question.

ps - I also think that being called “articulate” is a huge compliment and I happen to lap it up like a kitten when I’m so bestowed.

[monstro]

[QUOTE=RSSchen]
I take no offense at the suggestion I should get out more. That’s absolutely true. There’s so much of this country that I’ve never seen and what I have seen was as a young teen from the top window of a camper attached to a pick-up. Yes, yes, that does sound pretty trashy; what irony.

How funny you mention the media. That angle just popped into my head two minutes ago. Remember Good Times? Yes the father worked hard to maintain their lifestyle, but for unknown reasons, production took that opportunity in a ill-conceived direction. They could’ve been middle-class but to me it appeared that it was taken the opposite way for laughs.

True, but I do think Good Times gets a bad rap. The show had funny moments and characters that were not all stereotypes. JJ was a damn coon, but in later seasons he had mellowed out (he actually had a great job as a commercial artist…and he was supporting his siblings through school). Michael and Thelma were both positive, hard-working, “proper-speaking” children, as was Ester Rolle. Ebonics never spilled out of James’s mouth either (which, I counter, is not realistic given the poverty they lived in). And Wyllona made the show, IMHO, with her wit and good looks. The travesty of Good Times is as you said, though. James was never able to hold onto a job, despite the fact that he seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. And Ester Rolle playing the stay-at-home mother to school-aged kids was not a realistic image, and probably served to perpetuate the stereotype of the “welfare queen” to some ignorant viewers.

Redd Foxx hardly helped. Even George Jefferson never overcame the obstacles he found in Archie Bunker. If I stumble upon that show these days I’m utterly amazed and horrified. It would seem the stereotypes presented in media only perpetuated the negative and rarely even showed the real, or positive, side. It was all for the laughs of America.

But they were funny. Yes, these people fulfilled stereotypes but so did Archie Bunker and his associated characters. Friends and 90210 fulfilled stereotypes about rich, self-absorbed white people. I don’t see anything wrong with stereotypes as long as one group isn’t always the target, and as long as a diversity of characters are presented so that those stereotypes don’t hog the limelight. For instance, Fred Sanford was a trip, but Lamont wasn’t. Weezie balanced out George. (I would actually be more embarrassed about All in the Family…everyone in that show was a stereotype!)

I had a colleague who once asked me how I felt about the Cosby Show. Didn’t I think it presented a great role model for black Americans? I thought the question was condescending and strange. Did he think the same thing for, say, Mr. Belvedere and white Americans? Why should a TV show–especially a sitcom–have to carry the burden of being a role model? Shouldn’t it’s only requirement be entertainment value? The Cosby Show was a great show–don’t get me wrong–but it wasn’t great simply because white Americans could identify with it, or because it carried a “positive” message. It was great because it was funny. If Cliff and Claire had held blue-color jobs (which is what Cosby had originally intended), it still would have been a great show.

My favorite show of all time is probably A Different World, which had a smaller audience than the Cosby Show even though it was a spin-off. One could say the show also promoted positive messages, but one thing I found refreshing about it was that the characters were somewhat more realistic than the ones on the Cosby Show. The show had characters who actually speak like and act like all kinds of African Americans, and yet all of them were portrayed as educated and smart and lovable. Some people say that the show lost its universal (read “white”) appeal in later seasons as it became more afrocentric, but I don’t see this as a real travesty. There are many shows on TV right now that cater to niche audiences, and in this way they can maintain a certain realism in the dialogue (imagine if Oz had tried to appeal to the gramma set). I think black Americans, as well as white, need to be more open to embracing images of black people that aren’t always wholesome or mainstream. True art isn’t concerned about being wholesome or mainstream. It should strive to “keepin’ it real”.

[/hijack]