Again, the criticism about the street lamp effect is a valid one. Again, your idea of declaring early studies (and new studies now) as bullshit is dumb because what me and other pointed out is still a valid criticism of Frier, better data collection is missing in a lot of places and it actually leads to a reduction of violence when done:
It remains unclear which law-enforcement practices are actually best, largely because of a lack of data and science. “We’re operating in the dark about what are the most effective strategies, tactics and policies to move forward with,” Engel says.
Political leaders and activists pushing for change in the United States have widely endorsed body-worn cameras, de-escalation training, implicit-bias training, early intervention systems, the banning of chokeholds, and civilian oversight since the tragedies of 2014. A survey of 47 of the largest US law-enforcement agencies between 2015 and 2017 found that 39% changed their use-of-force policies in 2015–16 and revised their training to incorporate tactics such as de-escalation. Among the agencies surveyed, officer-involved shootings dropped by 21% during the study period11.
“But as we have seen in the last several weeks — from Minneapolis and from the police response to the protests — there’s a great deal that still has to change in policing,” says Laurie Robinson, a criminologist at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia.
Researchers are advocating collection of better data, such as tracking situations in which force was avoided by de-escalation strategies or, when force was used, recording whether it was at a lower level than it might previously have been.
The Oklahoma City Police Department is among agencies working to fill that void. It now collects details on the applicability of each specific de-escalation tactic and technique any time force is used. “Since the implementation of our de-escalation policy, our use-of-force numbers have decreased,” states Megan Morgan, a police sergeant and spokesperson for the department.
The collection of data might itself hold police officers more accountable. In one study, a requirement that officers file a report when they point their guns at people but do not fire was associated with significantly reduced rates of gun death12.
Would you care to link to the studies or should i just take your word for it? The one I see in your prior post doesn’t study the issue, it solves a very simple math problem.
Perhaps you misunderstand me or you’re stupid. I never said torture always works or that torture cannot be abused.
Proving that torture can be abused or that it didn’t work in one case doesn’t prove that torture doesn’t work. I only needed to show one case where it worked to prove it works.
That’s how categorical statements work. When you say torture doesn’t work and i say it can work sometimes, I only need to show one case where it worked to prove it works sometimes. That is the part of the argument where your side of the argument argues that other methods would have worked even better than torture.
I don’t think I’ve seen a link to a study that invalidates the fryer conclusions. do you have a link?
What study am i saying is bullshit (other than the bullshit pro-publica “study” which i don’t really consider a study so much as a exercise in simple division)
As you demonstrated with your words in the end, you do think that showing one case where it worked (dubious still) equals “torture works” that is still stupid.
As pointed on the previous thread, you must then also think that if someone hit a jackpot in a casino that then that means that a nation can go to play roulette as a good financial policy because that works.
It is stupid, as pointed before, saying that torture does not work is always much, much closer to the truth than claiming that it works.
It should be then more accurate for you to say that torture works like the lottery does. Sometimes one will get lucky, but it will be the height of stupidity to claim it is a good way to gather information when it ignores how it poisons that effort too.
That was done using logic, but thank you for showing all how much you are not using it.
Your effort here are just like how you tortured logic when thinking that torture works by willfully ignoring how the ones you pointed as supporters of your views told you the opposite of what you claimed. You only then fall for misleading platitudes grossly incomplete platitudes.
Now you’re mixing the argument for “torture doesn’t work” with “why we shouldn’t use torture”
I agree we shouldn’t use torture but not because it is ineffective.
So you don’t have anything other than gigobuster logic and you think that your gigobuster logic overturns peer reviewed study? Why would i do that?
Because in the past and here we already found out what an inept you are at logic.
Again, your efforts here are just like how you tortured logic when thinking that torture works by willfully ignoring how the ones you pointed as supporters of your views told us the opposite of what you claimed. You only then fall for misleading or grossly incomplete platitudes.
Your logic /> peer reviewed research it’s kind of funny that you would think it is.
Your opinion on torture is just that and your insistence that I consider your opinion to be fact is misplaced. You are getting all hot and bothered because someone who agrees that torture is wrong does not agree that torture is ineffective. This is the sort of dogmatic liberal orthodoxy that is going to lose us this election. You can’t even tolerate ideas that ultimartely agree with your desired result if they don’t get there the same way as you. I think that makes you part of the problem.
OT, but can relate. I had the lamest maternity leave, our childcare plans took a nosedive when grandpa decided to be wildly irresponsible about COVID, and in general it’s been a beast of a time to have a baby. But at least I can say one good thing came out of 2020.
So you are just confirming that you are directing all this energy at someone that ultimately agrees with you but doesn’t get there the same way as you? That sort of orthodoxy is part of the problem.
I bet you do.
It’s weird that you would dredge up this position from more than 10 years ago. Do you think about me that much that you would remember this. I don’t recall you well enough to remember if you were one of the more retarded people on the board or one of the most retarded people on the board. Or maybe you’re one of the more lucid posters on this board and just having a really bad day today, I frankly can’t recall. Your name sounds familiar but your arguments do not stand out.
Torture works, I think its horrible policy and as someone said in the previous debates its best to outlaw it and let jury nullification take care of those situations where its use was necessary.
I’m pretty sure it exists because your police keep killing black people.
BigT, I think you mean well, so couldn’t you at least pick a more reasonable position? @Trinopus agreed with me here:
I believe you that the police and courts treat black and white people differently, in fact I think I remember reading a study stating as much, but for serious crimes like murder it could not plausibly explain the difference. Look at @mikecurtis’s post. Poor people commit more crimes, and black Americans are disproportionately poor. It would be extraordinary if they didn’t commit more crimes than white Americans. Note that blacks are also much more likely to be a victim of a crime, do you disbelieve those statistics too?
As for ‘rhetoric of white supremacy’, that’s not an argument. Number of crimes committed is a fact, and pretty relevant when considering interactions with the police. If you save these accusations for real instances of white supremacy then they might actually have some impact.
Not as far as I know here in Texas. Other than the casually racist stuff like saying you’ve been “gypped” or whatever, it’s never come up, and I can’t say I’ve ever even heard of actual, real live Roma in Texas, much less actually seen any that I know about.
I mean, I’m sure they’re here, but since they probably blend in with Hispanics, Indians, Pakistanis and the myriad other people here, they likely either have assimilated or skate under the radar.
And I suspect even if someone did profess to having Roma/Romani heritage, I kind of suspect that it wouldn’t trigger much of a reaction, unless they were FOB or something and seemed really foreign. Otherwise, it would be a non-issue, like saying you’re of Moldovan or Uzbek heritage. Unusual, but not something that would be held against you.
Yikes, I hope you managed to find alternative arrangements for childcare. It’s been a nightmare for so many parents, trying to work from home and somehow homeschool their kids at the same time. There are a few upsides, though. My friend says her toddler’s language has come on loads since they’ve been spending all their time with her, and the health visitor told me the ‘covid babies’ are much calmer and happier than normal, maybe because they were forced to stay at home all the time and not passed around to tons of visitors.
Agree with you about 2020. For all the terrible things that have happened this year, it’s still the very best in one way.
It’s plausible that lots of white people could be eg committing drug offences and the police aren’t looking for it, so they never make it into the statistics, but murders tend to draw a little more attention.
