Who do you love more: your spouse or kids?

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=meenie7]
I think she’s mature enough to negotiate. We are compatible and it’s just one little thing. I’ve already talked her out of the huge family she wanted, down to just one or two. The one or two thing is a practical consideration anyway…I refuse to let my girlfriend live in poverty, because I love her too much, and lots of kids equals poverty, even if I wanted them too.
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But it doesn’t sound like you’re negotiating; you want her to go your way and that’s it. She’s already compromised with you–you’re not willing to compromise with her, it seems. And let me tell you right now, it’s not “just one little thing.” To someone who wants to have kids, it’s one of the strongest biological imperatives there is. It’s not something she’ll just be able to let go of.

I mean, I wish you both well and all, but I really don’t think you understand what you’re asking.

42

[QUOTE=dangermom]
But it doesn’t sound like you’re negotiating; you want her to go your way and that’s it. She’s already compromised with you–you’re not willing to compromise with her, it seems. And let me tell you right now, it’s not “just one little thing.” To someone who wants to have kids, it’s one of the strongest biological imperatives there is. It’s not something she’ll just be able to let go of.

I mean, I wish you both well and all, but I really don’t think you understand what you’re asking.
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That is a compromise. I didn’t want any kids. One or two is a huge, huge concession on my part. If we have them they will mess up my writing for years and years, it’s a huge sacrifice. Not to mention that I don’t really like little kids very much. I love small babies, but from about age 18 months until they’re old enough to discuss books with me, not so much. So I am really conceding a lot.

43

[QUOTE=meenie7]
That is a compromise. I didn’t want any kids. One or two is a huge, huge concession on my part. If we have them they will mess up my writing for years and years, it’s a huge sacrifice. Not to mention that I don’t really like little kids very much. I love small babies, but from about age 18 months until they’re old enough to discuss books with me, not so much. So I am really conceding a lot.
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But you said 'it’s going to be hard to tell her she can’t have kids", suggesting that you see talking her from “lots” to “one to two” is a waystation in the process of talking her into none–which is not a compromise at all.

44

[QUOTE=meenie7]
That is a compromise. I didn’t want any kids. One or two is a huge, huge concession on my part. If we have them they will mess up my writing for years and years, it’s a huge sacrifice. Not to mention that I don’t really like little kids very much. I love small babies, but from about age 18 months until they’re old enough to discuss books with me, not so much. So I am really conceding a lot.
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Well, I’m pretty confused. As far as I can tell, first you each compromised on one or two kids instead of lots or none, but now you don’t want to have any at all. So I don’t see what concession you’re really making, except that you said you would have one or two kids and now you’re saying you won’t after all and your GF will just have to live with it (only she doesn’t know this yet). Am I missing something? What about your statement that you’re going to tell her she “can’t” have children did I not understand?

45

[QUOTE=Manda JO]
But you said 'it’s going to be hard to tell her she can’t have kids", suggesting that you see talking her from “lots” to “one to two” is a waystation in the process of talking her into none–which is not a compromise at all.
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Well, I’m just getting her prospects in order…I could see my heart turning a little to the point where having two kids in the future would not seem so daunting to me. But I can’t ever see it turning to the point where I want 8 kids running around my house, so we’ve discussed it and all. My initial reaction of “I’ll have to tell her not to have any kids now” was sort of a “post while cranky” situation. Since yesterday when I posted that, I’ve thought about how I’ve benefitted from the love my parents have shown to me, and I suppose that giving that much love to the kids is a good thing, but I just have to see if I can get in the frame of mind where I’d be willing to share her with anyone, which I am not in right now. I waited so long to find her, I don’t want to share her with anyone.

46

[QUOTE=Litoris]
Actually, yes. It’s just how I am – you see, I had parents who loved their spouse more than their children. Well, in my mother’s case, it wasn’t her spouse that she loved more, it was herself. Maybe that’s my problem, maybe I overcompensate, but in the end, yes. I would be very angry with my husband if he chose my life over that of our child. The thing is, I think that my husband may think that he does love me more than he does our children, but he knows how I feel about it, so it remains unspoken.Don’t get me wrong, I am not a martyr, I don’t do everything for my children and nothing for myself or my husband.

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Ok. I don’t think it makes you sound like a martyr. I feel you on this. I too love my daughter more than anything, so I feel you.

I know what you mean about your husbands feelings on this always being unspoken. My husband would never admit outright to feeling a deeper love for me than his little girl. He did tattoo my name on his body twice, but from the first time he looked at that baby girl, I knew her name was tatted on his heart (yuck, that sounds corny.)

[QUOTE=Litoris]
It’s just that if it came down to the wire, his happiness or their health and well-being, he’d lose every. single. time. I do love my husband, but as my brother once pointed out when his wife threw a fit over him getting his daughter’s name and not hers tattooed on his body – “she will always be my daughter, you might not always be my wife.” I can’t explain it, but it basically boils down to being something more visceral than just love with my kids – I would die for them, but if it came to my husband or my life – well, I would miss him, ya know?
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As far as whose needs are going to get met, I think that comes down to duty, not love, right? I mean, as parents, we have to put the kids first…that is our job. Just because a husband would feed his baby the last morsel of food while you all are trapped in a snow storm doesn’t mean he loves the baby more.

I am completely fascinated with this topic. I read this book called the Metu Neter that talks about no one owing anyone love…not even a mother to a child…we all in life must love ourselves ultimately, and all else will balance. I know it sounds new agey, and the book is that, but that point about no one owing love to anyone else has always fascinated me.

47

[QUOTE=meenie7]
Well, I’m just getting her prospects in order…I could see my heart turning a little to the point where having two kids in the future would not seem so daunting to me. But I can’t ever see it turning to the point where I want 8 kids running around my house, so we’ve discussed it and all. My initial reaction of “I’ll have to tell her not to have any kids now” was sort of a “post while cranky” situation. Since yesterday when I posted that, I’ve thought about how I’ve benefitted from the love my parents have shown to me, and I suppose that giving that much love to the kids is a good thing, but I just have to see if I can get in the frame of mind where I’d be willing to share her with anyone, which I am not in right now. I waited so long to find her, I don’t want to share her with anyone.
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:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I think your stance is more than a little extreme. There is no problem with that in and of itself. What seems to be the problem is that you see kids as a side-dish on a delicious dinner. It isn’t that way for most people that want to have kids. Dictating procreating decisions for a SO s about the quickest deal breaker that I can ever imagine. My wife and I have always seen eye to eye on that stuff but, in an alternate universe, I would kick someone out based on what you are saying so fast it would make them change eye color. That is the one thing I could never compromise over and it seems like you are going to have problems no matter what. That is a VERY HUGE, GIGANTIC, COLLOSAL deal. Just keep that in mind. You don’t seem to grasp it well at all. Deciding between a Poodle and a Daschund is something you compromise over. Comprising to have one or more kids versus none is something you don’t.

48

[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated]

As far as whose needs are going to get met, I think that comes down to duty, not love, right? I mean, as parents, we have to put the kids first…that is our job. Just because a husband would feed his baby the last morsel of food while you all are trapped in a snow storm doesn’t mean he loves the baby more.

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I agree with this; I do think that comparing who gets saved first if the house is burning down is a bit pointless. I mean, when will my husband actually have to choose between my life and our daughters’ lives? And how is that hypothetical scenario a real, meaningful measure of love and not duty?

And on the meenie end of things, it might help if you post clear information about your situation rather than saying contradictory things and expecting readers to understand you. Otherwise, what Shagnasty said; good luck to you both, but I still don’t think you get the magnitude of what you’re talking about.

49

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
What seems to be the problem is that you see kids as a side-dish on a delicious dinner.
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Yeah, that is how I see them. They couldn’t be the central main dish of my life…my writing and my girlfriend share that plate. So, they would have to be a side dish, by default.

I think it’s all about the way you choose to live on. My girlfriend wants to live on through children, like a lot of people do, and that’s cool and like I said, I can see someday wanting to do that with her, once I get through the early “mine mine mine” phase in our relationship (I’ve been very lonely for a really long time, so I’m giving myself a little room to want her for myself for the first few years of the relationship.) Whereas, I have my writing, which, when I get published, will be able to live forever in the minds of a lot more people than any of my kids could possibly ever meet or know. And the characters in my books are like kids to me..I take them very seriously, love them, feel real anguish when they are hurt in the book, etc. And like a parent, I will be sad and proud at the same time when I let them go out into the world, and I see their stories as my legacy. So, having kids is not a crucial emergency to me, because really, I already have some. :slight_smile:

50

What do you guys think of this scenario: one of my best friends had her parents split when she was in her early teens. Her father married another woman and insisted that his new wife be included in all his visitation with my friend. He felt that my friend needed to learn to love his wife and include her in all their family activities together. My friend said she got the distinct sense that he loved his new wife more, or cared about her feelings more, than he did hers, his own daughter. She wanted to spend time with him alone, because he’s her dad and the step-mother was basically the stranger who helped break up her parents’ marriage.

Her father, when asked to choose, chose his new wife, saying he felt it was wrong to exclude her and make her feel like she wasn’t part of the family. My friend does not see her father anymore as a result.

Is the father wrong for wanting his daughter to include his new wife in everything? Was my friend being unreasonable, or was her dad? Having never been in a situation like that, I’m naturally inclined to side with my friend, but maybe her dad’s position has some validity? I truly do not know.

51

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Was my friend being unreasonable, or was her dad?
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Yes, they were both being unreasonable, I expect. Teenage girls, at least, have the excuse of being teenaged girls - they’re built to be unreasonable.

This is one of those times when everyone just needs to drop the “shoulds” and figure out what they “can” do instead. Like visit with Dad alone sometimes and with Dad and the step-monster other times. Heck, I’m happily married to my daughter’s father, and I don’t always want it to be the three of us - sometimes, sure, but sometimes it’s really great to hang out with her alone, and sometimes it’s frakking wonderful (for all of us) when she hangs out with her dad alone.

Dad should have been realistic enough to know that his daughter couldn’t be forced into a loving filial relationship with his new wife, but the daughter should also give a little and give the woman a chance. Dad did choose her to be another parent, and none of us get say in who our parents are, right?

52

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
What do you guys think of this scenario: one of my best friends had her parents split when she was in her early teens. Her father married another woman and insisted that his new wife be included in all his visitation with my friend. He felt that my friend needed to learn to love his wife and include her in all their family activities together. My friend said she got the distinct sense that he loved his new wife more, or cared about her feelings more, than he did hers, his own daughter. She wanted to spend time with him alone, because he’s her dad and the step-mother was basically the stranger who helped break up her parents’ marriage.

Her father, when asked to choose, chose his new wife, saying he felt it was wrong to exclude her and make her feel like she wasn’t part of the family. My friend does not see her father anymore as a result.

Is the father wrong for wanting his daughter to include his new wife in everything? Was my friend being unreasonable, or was her dad? Having never been in a situation like that, I’m naturally inclined to side with my friend, but maybe her dad’s position has some validity? I truly do not know.
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Well, a few thoughts. Step-parental situations are different than original-parents-still-together ones. In such cases I think it’s really really important to help a child feel loved.

Either way I think it’s pretty important for children and parents to spend time alone, one-on-one together. Some people do this by having ‘dates’ with one kid every couple of months, for example. One thing we do is that Dad takes each kid out for an ice-cream cone on her own birthday, for a special Dad thing. Those sorts of things are important for any family, but possibly more so for a step situation.

I think both parties were probably being unreasonable. I can understand Dad’s feelings, but I think he was misguided. You don’t have to have everyone along every single time. I can understand Daughter’s feelings about it, but I think she’s overreacting a bit if she’s cut off contact with him over it, unless there was a heck of a lot more going on. You don’t specify whether StepMom was actually the reason the parents broke up, or if Daughter just sees her that way; if SMom really was the Other Woman then her feelings are far more justified IMO. No kid is going to react well to that. But I’ve known lots of kids who blamed their innocent stepmoms for everything from global warming to not getting a horse for Christmas, too. Stepmoms are much safer to blame.

53

[QUOTE=meenie7]
That is a compromise. I didn’t want any kids. One or two is a huge, huge concession on my part. If we have them they will mess up my writing for years and years, it’s a huge sacrifice. Not to mention that I don’t really like little kids very much. I love small babies, but from about age 18 months until they’re old enough to discuss books with me, not so much. So I am really conceding a lot.
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My best friend was raised by someone who felt like you. Her father relented at her mother’s pleas for a houseful of kids. They had two. Throughout their lives her father had a seething, simmering resentment of his children for “stealing” their mother from him. He told her brother the day he was born was the worst day of his life, because now he had to share her. It fucked up the kids something royally, and taught their mother (who, obviously, adored her children) to hate their father, because he hated the kids. She’d have been better to leave him when he first said no. Being raised by someone who doesn’t love you (it’s not hard to tell) is an awful thing, and I think it’s a mistake to have kids just to appease a partner you don’t want to lose. It’ll only get worse, not better. It’s a rough situation, and I hurt for your girlfriend, who undoubtedly wants children as deeply and instinctually as you don’t. I hope you figure it out.

You could get lucky and be like my Dad, who despised kids up until the second they put me in his arms-- but that’s a hell of a gamble to take.

54

[QUOTE=Obsidian]
My best friend was raised by someone who felt like you. Her father relented at her mother’s pleas for a houseful of kids. They had two. Throughout their lives her father had a seething, simmering resentment of his children for “stealing” their mother from him. He told her brother the day he was born was the worst day of his life, because now he had to share her. It fucked up the kids something royally, and taught their mother (who, obviously, adored her children) to hate their father, because he hated the kids. She’d have been better to leave him when he first said no. Being raised by someone who doesn’t love you (it’s not hard to tell) is an awful thing, and I think it’s a mistake to have kids just to appease a partner you don’t want to lose. It’ll only get worse, not better. It’s a rough situation, and I hurt for your girlfriend, who undoubtedly wants children as deeply and instinctually as you don’t. I hope you figure it out.

You could get lucky and be like my Dad, who despised kids up until the second they put me in his arms-- but that’s a hell of a gamble to take.
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God, that’s awful and I’m sorry for your friend. :frowning:

The more I think about this topic, the more I realize I was posting from a skewed perspective and made overly-broad statements. I don’t hate kids. I think the real thing is that I really, really adore babies. Like, I’ll change poopy diapers, wake up five times in the night, do anything for them, I love them so much. And so, by contrast, the moderate, pedestrian feeling I have toward “kids” (like, age 2 to about 8 or so), which is mostly due to the fact that I don’t like loud noises and kids yell a lot (and do not have the cuteness and helplessness that make me feel softhearted toward babies) seems like “dislike” in comparison. I go and play with my 2 and a half year old cousin sometimes and he’s fun, because he’s a kid but he’s smart and funny. But you’re not guaranteed to get a smart, funny kid. You might get one of the little loud screaming monsters who torment the puppies in the mall. So, it makes me nervous, to think that they might be an awful little kid, and I’d still be expected to take care of them, even if they’re loud or obnoxious or they didn’t like me.

It’s complicated. :frowning:

55

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Is the father wrong for wanting his daughter to include his new wife in everything? Was my friend being unreasonable, or was her dad? Having never been in a situation like that, I’m naturally inclined to side with my friend, but maybe her dad’s position has some validity? I truly do not know.
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:eek: I can tell you that as someone who was an ADULT when her parents split, it’s ridiculous for your friend’s father to include stepmom in everything. Kids need time alone with each parent, regardless of their marital status. YFF decided on his own that there was going to be a problem and acted on his own to remedy it – people do that all the time, don’t we? Make up shit in our heads and base our decisions on it. Life’s a lot better when we actually include the other participants, rather than reacting to our assumptions about them.
meenie77, I think you’re wise to put off having kids for the time being. It’s a lot easier to parent after you’ve had your shot at setting the world on fire – if it takes, and it’s enough, then maybe you skip having kids entirely. If (as happens for the vast majority of people) your best efforts are merely another interesting life led by another interesting person, then (once you make peace with that) you’re in a better position to make room on your plate for offspring. Who will be fascinating people (to you), flaws and all.

It does sound like you’re deceiving your partner as to your true intentions, and that’s NOT a good thing. Not matter what the issue is.

56

To answer the OP: Children, no question.

meenie, I think you’ll be okay. I hated kids and babies my whole life. Even when I had my own, it took me a while to warm up…but then they became little people, and I could see how my every action affected them. If you can hang in there through the poopy diapers and whatnot, by then they’ll have you.

Besides, when it’s your own little darling tormenting puppies in the mall, you can smack their ass all the way to the food court.

Okay, well, no you can’t, but you can certainly stop them, and I’m sure there aren’t that many puppies in the mall anyway…

57

[QUOTE=meenie7]
That is a compromise. I didn’t want any kids. One or two is a huge, huge concession on my part. If we have them they will mess up my writing for years and years, it’s a huge sacrifice. Not to mention that I don’t really like little kids very much. I love small babies, but from about age 18 months until they’re old enough to discuss books with me, not so much. So I am really conceding a lot.
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Do NOT compromise on kids. Do NOT let someone you love and care about compromise about kids. Please do NOT do either of these things. Face the fact that you and your girlfriend want different things from life and move on. PLEASE. For both of you and these potential children.

If you want none and are willing to “compromise” you will end up being miserable - and worse yet, you will have done no favors to the child you have agreed to parent. Can you imagine being a child who was only wanted by one of your parents and simply agreed to by the other in order to stay in the relationship? Therapy central.

On the other hand, if your girlfriend eventually realizes that she missed out on one thing she always wanted that frankly nothing can replace, nothing is like, and nothing can substitute for, and made that sacrifice for you - and you don’t live up to being worth it. What a burden for both of you.

58

I don’t think it’s that odd to find some ages more enjoyable than others. Toddlers are alien life forms – and children can start finding books interesting early on, especially if they’re exposed. Lots of people struggle mightly with their teenagers, but not everyone does.

I’ve watched my husband vary in his ability to deal with and enjoy our twins. He’s having a LOT more fun now, as compared with a year ago (and he was pretty good with them as little babies).

59

I chose to love my spouse and continue to choose this on a daily basis. Biology has programmed me to love my children. I love my children because they are mine, I love my husband because we picked each other. Apples and oranges.

60

[QUOTE=Dung Beetle]

meenie, I think you’ll be okay. I hated kids and babies my whole life. Even when I had my own, it took me a while to warm up…but then they became little people, and I could see how my every action affected them. If you can hang in there through the poopy diapers and whatnot, by then they’ll have you.

Besides, when it’s your own little darling tormenting puppies in the mall, you can smack their ass all the way to the food court.

Okay, well, no you can’t, but you can certainly stop them, and I’m sure there aren’t that many puppies in the mall anyway…
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Well, I was referring to the puppies in the mall pet store. I’ve seen this torment happening, and I wanted to backhand those kids, bleh.

I don’t like the “little people” phase of kids. I like them better when they’re pooping their diapers, but they also love you and don’t talk back (because they can’t talk.) If someone has a personality, they can, by extension, then have a personality conflict with you, and that’s no good, when I’m expected to take care of their every need, even if we don’t get along.

My girlfriend on the other hand, I chose, and I would take care of and help her through anything.