NaSultainne, you may have missed my question to you in my previous post.
Please
Pleonast
The impossible made possible. The breaking of natural laws by a supernatural force. For example a man walking on water or rising from the dead.
One verse alone on a given subject might appear at first glance to contradict other scripture. If you do a concordance search for the terms for hades, gehenna, hell, sheol, you’ll find a developing Jewish recognition that death was not the end of existence, that the just and unjust awaited a day of judgment, that this judgment would fall at the end of days. This is a subject worthy of an entire debate, but I won’t even attempt it here. Let me make a few scriptural observations:
Hades (Sheol) had, prior to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, two compartments. One, Torments for those rejecting God, and **Paradise (Abraham’s bosom) for those accepting God. Luke 16:19-31
At the cross, Jesus credits the faith of one of the men crucified with Him, telling him that he will this day be with Jesus in Paradise. Luke 23:43
1 Peter 3:18-20 indicates that Jesus preached the gospel to those in Hades who had disobeyed God, as far back as the day of Noah. Note two things: in no verse, this or any other, is there any indication that those souls in *Torments are capable of crossing into Paradise, quite the contrary, and believing so dismisses all warnings of the nature of sin, the punishment, the final judgment thereof.
Eph 4:8-9 indicates that when Jesus ascended to heaven, he took those captive, the righteous in Paradise, with Him.
In 2 Cor. 12:1-4, Paul refers to Paradise as being in the third heaven, further confirmation of Jesus’ actions.
Jesus also makes gives many warnings of the dangers of the fire of Gehenna (Hell) in Ma 5:22,29,30; 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33, Mk 9:43,45,47; Lk 12:5. It was a warning of the consequences of sin.
Judgment, in Rev. 20:11-15, commences, with Hades thrown into the lake of fire, along with those whose names are not found in the Book of Life.
Yes, this is quick and dirty, but it’s what I have handy. If you require an indepth look at all applicable scripture, we’d have to do this another way.
Come now, what an unfair aspersion! I have never condemned anyone to eternal torment, nor do I now. I do recognize that Jesus took the issue extremely seriously, as did the Apostles; that judgment awaits us all, and that God’s justice is tempered with mercy. By contrast, I don’t think you have given sufficient weight to the concept of free will. Does God force those who reject His decrees to love Him? Can He? Would He? Isn’t that what you’re implying, by denying that any will be condemned, based on their own actions, mind you, to eternal separation from God? I find no reason in Scripture to believe that those people who refuse to accept God’s word in this lifetime, choose rather to follow their own desires, will have a “change of heart” after death. It sounds like a major cop-out, doesn’t it. Live it up, have as much fun as you want, evade, avoid, deny God to your little heart’s content, knowing you’ll get once last, final, I-mean-it-this-time, choice.
Siege, you have made God an either-or, simple black and white caricature, it seems. Truly God will accept any man who honestly seeks Him, of this I have absolutely no doubt. BUT. Again, I can find no scriptural support for the notion that God is complacent about sin, accepting of sin, overlooking of sin, without the atoning blood of Jesus. It’s that simple. Repentance means I, you, anyone, acknowledges the sin and turns away from it. I trust God to have conveyed through the authors of the Bible what He intended; that means I have to understand what HE wants and expects, not what my mind wishes is true. God’s overwhelming love is what urges me to continue onward, despite my failures and weaknesses. I praise God for His love and grace, by which we are saved.
Mangetout, of course I understood the exact phrasing Triskedamus used. Thanks, anyway. I took exception to his (her?) characterization of scriptural discussions as tedious. Prefacing the statement, Arguing about, characterizes the discussion as a fight, not a debate, conversation or discussion. It presupposes antagonists. The next term biblical literalism is almost contemptuous. That’s my interpretation, and I’m backed up with the final tidbit I don’t do dueling verses.. Snide. So, I chose to cut to the chase, as it were, and rephrase the comment in a similarly pointed manner by dropping the baggage in Tris’s sentences to bring us to the main, central, significant point, which is, that he (or she) is so knowledgeable about scripture that even difficult passages need no discussion or comment, no edification, on his part. It’s called provoking a reaction; I deliberately pointed out the essence of the thought, as I saw it, to highlight the arrogance of the position. Again, as Tris hasn’t responded, I’d say he got it. It’s clear you did not.
Sorry, that was far from my intent, and it’s pretty much the opposite of what I believe. What I was trying to depict was the way I perceived people who say that non-Christians are condemned to Hell, only Christians shall be saved or get into heaven, whatever one means by those vaguely defined terms, or both.
Two of the most moral and decent people I know are Wiccan; they are also two of my closest friends. I’ve also known some Wiccans who are real jerks. I’ve just spent over on the phone with Polycarp who has reminded me yet again that we really are twins separated at birth (and yes, brother dear, I have eaten!). On the other hand, there’s a Christian who used to post here whose former username I will not use. The understanding of God I have come to is one who will look at the contents of the character of each person I’ve referred to, our sins known and unknown, things done and left undone, and judge us according to who we are and what we are capable of becoming.
I also believe that people’s religious upbringing does tend to influence them. I grew up in an Anglican household which placed a great deal of emphasis on reason and logic. Lo and behold, I am an Anglican who greatly values reason and logic. No one in my family would claim to be born again, not even my late grandmother who was a Baptist, albeit a northern English one. (I didn’t know they had them there, either.) On the other hand, that Wiccan couple I mentioned grew up Protestant (him Presbyterian/Southwest Pennsylvania Scotch-Irish, her upper crust Episcopalian), became hard-core Fundamentalist Christians who were even Young Earth Creationists for a while (he found her one night and Jesus the next!;)), then hard Atheists (of the “How can people believe that line of nonsense?!” school of thought), and are now Wiccans. Some people’s mileage varies more highly than others. From what I know of them (I met them after they became Wiccans), they were decent, moral, honorable, righteous people no matter what deity or deities they worshipped or failed to worship at some point in there lives. When I was hungry, they gave me food; when thirsty, they gave me drink; when I was very much a stranger, they took me into their home and their hearts; when I was naked they clothed me, although given that hot tub of theirs, things usually go the other way; when I was ill, they came to my help and healed; when imprisoned by pain, they not only visited me, they freed me. Sounds like sheep to me. Then again, it might be that affinity for sheep his Scottish heritage gives him! 
Respectfully,
CJ
NaSultainne:
Actually, yes, he did respond. And you did not answer. Were they really sheep and goats?
You are comfortable that your interpretation of scripture is the one and only true word of God. I doubt that. I have no interest in hearing your possibly scholarly defense of your biblical knowledge. Over many years of sin, and a few glorious moments of divine inspiration, I have seen the absolute truth of how I should follow Christ. He didn’t give me instructions for you.
He gave me a message for everyone. He loves you. That is the most important thing in the universe. In fact, as far as I can tell from my feeble mortal view of things, it may be the only important thing in the universe.
For me, in particular, theology, and intellectual discourse on the subject of the path of true service to the Lord is a dangerous trap, and I won’t do it. I will only give to my friends here what comfort, and assurance that I can that those who claim to know something that is more important than the Love of Christ are either deluded, or just plain wrong. God’s Word is not understood by the mind of man. Jesus is the Word, and the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. It isn’t reasonable, it isn’t logical, and it isn’t a matter for argument. It just happens to be true. It’s a miracle!
What I must do, is to love Him, and love my brothers as myself. Saint Francis said, “There is no use walking and preaching, if our walking is not our preaching.” Another wise man once said “Preach the word of God to everyone. Use words if necessary.”
You will know them by their fruits. I have no time for argument, or theology, I am desperately trying to grow fruit. Not to earn salvation, nor to lead others to it. I wish to serve my Lord faithfully, because I love Him, and want to create more love, because it is a good thing to do. I love every thief and murderer, king and beggar in the world, as I can. And when I don’t, it is my sin, that I have not.
If that is scripturally unsound, I am undismayed by that fact. I do not worship the Bible.
Tris
Thankyou for responding
Okay, I’m clear that you don’t accept the obvious implication for Christ preaching to the long dead disobedient contemporaries of Noah . So why did Christ preach to them?
No no no. I would never suggest that you or anyone else on this board would want to condemn anyone to eternal torment. Please do not take offence. I just don’t understand how you could ascribe such a desire to your loving God . Do you love this God with all your heart? Do you want to be just like him ? If He called upon you to deliver people into “eternal” torment for Him would you do it ? I really don’t think you would, and neither do I believe for one moment that our God would.
But God does swear that every knee wiil bow before him at some point and many with shame. I take Him at his word.