I apologize if this has already been addressed in the nine pages of previous posts, but haven’t we already solved the OP’s question?
The Jews killed Jesus. In the conservatory. With the candlestick.
So where’s the religious equivalent of the Michelson–Morley experiment where evidence of these profound understandings is independently found? Has someone who’d never heard of Christ independently found Christ, ever?
I mean, if you’re going to invoke Einstein, at least recognize the difference between his work and the bible, where Einstein can be supported by evidence and the bible cannot.
Damn, reading through these again I realize someone already beat me to the Clue joke.
Anyway, I’d just like to submit that I had a roommate back in college who was a fundamentalist Christian. We had many spirited debates similar to the one here. I remember particularly getting him very angry when I argued that Jesus committed suicide. I find it unforgivable that this is considered a one-way ticket to Hell by Christians even when Jesus so clearly walked into his own death.
There is no getting through to these people who are so entrenched in their beliefs. Reason doesn’t factor into it. It exists outside anything of any intellectual value. The Bible declares itself to be true, and who’s ever heard of religious exploitation? That didn’t exist 2000 years ago. That’s why Roman emperors didn’t declare themselves to be gods. :rolleyes:
I would just like to ask the OP what made him turn to Christianity as opposed to say, Buddhism or Islam. Apologies if someone’s already asked. I believe you said you are a born again? Was Muhammad a liar or a lunatic?
By the way, one day I left a piece of paper on my roommates desk that read:
God has deemed it necessary to give Sam I Was $50. PS - This is the Word of God.
He didn’t find it funny.
I believe so. If they didn’t find Him in this life then it’s possible they found Him in the afterlife.
“Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife”. --Proverbs 30:33
Wring your nose with pliers. There’s your evidence.
(although I’d recommend churning some milk into butter rather than hurting your nose.)
1.) I was raised Christian.
2.) I’m an American born in America… Christianity is the “American religion”.
3.) After I was old enough to read into other religions it was still the only religion that makes perfect sense to me… although I have previously stated that I accept the Book of Mormon and the Qur’an as the Word of God. I have nothing against Islam, it’s just not my religion. I’ve also stated I’m not religious but I am very spiritual.
Here’s a verse from the Qur’an about Christians… this is Allah speaking to Christ…
Surah III:55 “…and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection…”.
Simply put, according to Islam and the Qur’an, those who believe in Jesus and put their faith in Him and follow His teachings are still doing the will of Allah.
Really… Christianity and Islam are more harmonious than many realize.
That’s funny… it is almost the Word of God, considering the Bible says “Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver”–II Corinthians 9:7
It was probably the way you went about it though… your friend probably took your innocent joke as mockery.
Harmonious except for that little part about the nature of Jesus. Muslims believe he was a prophet, not the Son of God, and that he was never crucified, so how does that reconcile?
Again, I’m afraid I don’t have time to read through this sheer volume of this thread so you must excuse me if you’ve had to repeat yourself. Your ability to quote scripture is impressive, but I must ask a few questions about it. Do you believe that the Bible is more or less literally true? Is part of it the Word of God, or all? Is there a possibility there was ever a mistranslation anywhere? Is the Gospel of Thomas also the Word of God?
OK, way too much postwater under the bridge to join conversation at its current location.
The style of the OP doesn’t bother me as much as that of prior partisans (although the no caps thing is a bit annoying)… all right, to address the OP question / threadtitle question as posited…
A
Jesus of Nazareth, the mortal of great wisdom and inspirational teaching, in whose historical existence I am inclined to believe (albeit not with any frenetic fervor): some combo of 3, 4, 5, and 6. Plus
- Jesus accidentally killed Jesus. Miscalculation on his part. They were supposed to back down. He had deliberately juxtaposed (several times, and on an ongoing basis) the outcome that would occur if folks adhered rather robotically to the letter of the law, on the one hand, with the outcome that would occur if folks cared about the spirit of the law, on the other. THAT much, he did deliberately. The intended outcome, I’m quite positive, was that people would (in a spectrum of enthusiasm from grudging to worshipful appreciative acclamation) concede his point, which was that the spirit of the law held primacy. That rule-following —whether of the sort “I am doing everything the Book says I must do so I am a good person” or taking the form “the law as written in this specific clause says whosoever shall do this act shall be punished in this fashion so without further thought or consideration we shall punish you in exactly that fashion” — was not identical to obeying the Law, that the Book, however important, was not itself God.
B
In contrast to Jesus the person, the answer for the to-me-mythical Jesus the God, or Demigod, considered and widely taught not merely as the Son of God in the same sense that I am a Son of God and Lynn Bodoni the daughter of God and so forth, but instead specifically Divine in some way in which I am NOT:
- No one killed Jesus. Insofar as the dude ain’t dead.
That is, within the confines of the orthodox Christian myth, the death of Jesus is specifically taught as nonpermanent. Even within the larger context in which the death of any of us (again within the confines of the relevant mythos) is held to be nonpermanent, the nonpermanence of the death of Jesus is taught as a special case, his death being even less permanent than mine will be, etc.; whereas you and I and our loved ones and so forth may “go to heaven” or be “raised from the dead” or otherwise escape “the sting of the grave” and all that nonrot, Jesus is described as coming right back after a long weekend break. That rather significantly dilutes so much of the normative denotation of “dead” that I see no reason to acknowledge it as counting as “dead”. Subjected to painful experiences, sure, but out and missing in action for 3 days? I’ve slept for that long after finals week!
Jesus’ death was an accident.
Jesus just forgot his safe word. 
Oh, don’t play the “martyr card” around here. No one hates you, we don’t even know you except for words on a message board. If picking apart or ridiculing your weird and unsupportable ideas is hate, then you must lead a very sheltered life.
Get off the cross.
Well, I guess belief is a kind of evidence…
What and whose “wrath” is being forced, here?
Buffy Summers. Superman. Spock. Xena.
Count Dracula.
Oops, never mind, you guys were talking NON-undeads.
Ooooh Ooooh! Phoenix from the X Men.
Westley
She’s an odd case.
To fully understand the Qur’an you would have to know Aramaic. The Qur’an cannot be perfectly translated word for word from Aramaic into English. I believe Jesus was a prophet, He was not the literal physical son of God (God didn’t have sex with Mary. The Qur’an supports the virgin birth*), and I don’t believe Jesus was crucified in the sense that He was murdered or killed or executed because He gave His own life… you can’t steal from someone what they freely give to you.
(*Surah III:47 “She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is”.)
Surah IV:157-158 (paraphrased) 157. "They thought they murdered the Messiah, son of Mary, apostle of Allah. They did not murder Him, nor did they execute Him by crucifixion. They think they did because that is what they saw with their eyes and surely those who have another opinion doubt the truth. They have no knowledge respecting the truth but only follow the unproven. Jesus was not murdered. 158. No! Allah took him up to Himself and Allah is mighty and wise!
Basically… No one killed Jesus. Not the Romans or the Jews. They think they did… and some Christians today still blame the Jews for killing Jesus. Truth is that Jesus laid down his own life, and wasn’t killed or murdered… Allah took Jesus back from the disbelievers. Jesus was meant to die on the cross… if we could this very day ask Jesus “Who killed you”, I truly believe He would say “No one. I freely gave my life to and for all”.
That is my understanding of that Qur’an passage. Again, it’s not a perfect translation because I can’t read Aramaic… It’s at best translated “at best”.
I don’t hold it against you. My first few posts had a lot of unnecessary and redundant typing and this thread did grow rather quickly.
The Bible says…
1 John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”.
1 John 4:2 “Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God…”.
in short… anything that is of God confesses the power and authority of Jesus. I also believe the book of Enoch, the Gospel of Thomas, etc., are the Word of God.
The book of Mormon says…
2 Nephi 29:2-4, 7, 10
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…and My words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
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And because My words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
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But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto Me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
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Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth My word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
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Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
No language can be perfectly or literally translated into English. I believe the way we have the English Bible is the way God intended for man to have it. There may be translation errors, but that doesn’t make what it says any less precise, just less accurate. There is a huge difference between accuracy and precision, and although accuracy and precision are sometimes used synonymously, they aren’t synonyms.
Emphasis mine. Dude. Seriously? It’s my understanding that no one with any knowledge of the subject buys into that.
Do you reflexively believe all bullshit you hear?
So which bible is best: King James, New International, New American? Can we have a clue about which particular English bible is the “right” one?
So you believe it’s correct because it’s what you were brought up with. Probably just coincidence.
Ridicule is hateful. I’m not trying to play the martyr… if you don’t want to believe or consider what I type, I am not forcing you to… I just wish you wouldn’t ridicule me. Besides, think of those in times past who were ridiculed for their ideas. The world isn’t flat… the Sun doesn’t orbit the earth… women should have equal rights with men… etc.
Now I’m not saying my thoughts and ideas are true but they make sense to me… they are thought provoking at most, and nothing more than entertaining reading at least. I don’t see you ridiculing J.K. Rowling or J.R.R. Tolkien for their imaginations… and to create an entire language is really weird… anyone here speak Klingon?
If you are going to ridicule me, at least say something I will laugh along with and not be made to feel less intelligent or less human by. I just try to think outside the box… way outside the box… way, way, waaaay outside the box.
As for the cross… “And when He had called the people unto Him with His disciples also, He said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself*, and take up his cross, and follow me”–Mark 8:34.
(*that doesn’t mean Jesus is telling me to deny the things I type about… but to deny myself by admitting that I can do nothing without God.)
Arabic, not Aramaic. The Qur’an was written in Arabic.