By the way, I should’ve have put quotes around the ‘better for you’ phrase. To steal Fiveyear’s format:
Man: So do I have a shot?
Woman: I’m sorry, I’m taken.
Man: It’s serious? You don’t think I’d be better for you?
Woman: Nope sorry, I’ve only got eyes for my partner.
Man: Okay, no problem. So how about them Nicks?
grrr… should’nt’ve put quotes.
Oh, as long I’m opening myself up to a dogpile by supporting such a ‘skeevy’ position, I might as well let y’all know where I’m coming from.
Son, any statement that begins with ‘I really ought to–’ is suspect. It means you haven’t analysed your motives. . . . Find out what you want to do, then do it. Never talk yourself into doing something you don’t want.
— Robert Heinlein
It is in vain to hope to please all alike. Let a man stand with his face in what direction he will, he must necessarily turn his back on one half of the world.
– George Dennison
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play
-Heraclites
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently.
A child-like man is not a man whose development has been arrested; on the contrary, he is a man who has given himself a chance of continuing to develop long after most adults have muffled themselves in the cocoon of middle-aged habit and convention.
-Aldous Huxley
Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man’s original virtue.
-Oscar Wilde
To be nobody but yourself in a word which is working night and day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight and never stop fighting.
-e.e. cummings
All persons ought to endeavor to follow what is right, and not what is established.
-Aristotle
Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. …Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
There isn’t any society to disapprove, to disallow, to denounce or to ostracize you. It’s a myth. I wonder how many millions of lives have been tossed on the junkpile to appease an entity that never existed.
-Harry Browne
The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization.
-Sigmund Freud
Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul.
-Mark Twain
It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.
This I believe: that the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
You can’t conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
-Robert Heinlein
From the Op in question: “After this party we chatted on IM for about 2 hours last night, and 3 hours so far tonight and still going. Having great conversations about the differences in how men and women interact with each other, along with everything else under the sun. ** Already discussed that we both find each other attractive and interesting.”** (bolding mine)
So, aruvqan, in your basket weaving discussions with these other men, do you also discuss how attractive and interesting you find them?
Or do you, perhaps, detect some small difference between the discussions he’s been having with the girl and your casual discussions? Do you suspect that maybe you are compairing apples and oranges here?
Yes you CAN hit on a woman by saying you’re better for her than her current partner, but only if you don’t want to remain friends afterwards.
If she agress with you, all well and good.
If she disagrees, there is no way in hell she’ll forget that comment or is likely to read it any other way than “that arrogant prick thinks he knows what’s best for me, better than I do myself.” And no, she still won’t come running even if that relationship happens to end. Put simply, that approach smacks of “don’t worry your pretty little head, I’ll do all the thinking for you”. It’s not what most women are looking for.It’s a possible approach with strangers, but isn’t going to play well otherwise.
If you HAVE to hit on someone you know, go with:
Him:" So, how serious is it with you two anyway?"
Her:“Pretty serious”
Him: “Well, you know I’ve always really liked you, so I just had to ask. Sorry”
Do NOT assume that she’s up for it and just wants to be talked into it, so as to feel less guilty. Take no as NO. If she actually meant yes, she’d do the running.
~shrugs~ Maybe I’m just lucky in that every ‘taken’ women who I’ve ever hit on was flattered by my attention and one did come running to me after her and her boyfriend went their course.
And while it may smack of condesencion to you, that’s pretty obviously your personal paradigm and not anything objective. Providing the possibility that you might be better than someone else is hardly telling a person you’ll do their thinking for 'em.
I have to say, FinnAgain, I think it’s fine to hit on a woman if you don’t know any better, since there’s no way for you to know whether or not she’s involved, but once she tells you she’s got a boyfriend, implying that you might be better for her than he is is a really assholish thing to do. Who the fuck is some guy who doesn’t know about her relationship to tell her that? Even if, objectively, it might actually be true. Convince her of it, don’t tell her. Not only is it showing no respect for her decisions, it’s patronizing in the extreme.
Um. If they’re in a relationship, then “I’m not interested in you” is implied (at least in this culture).
A gentleman or a lady would not ask if he or she knew of the relationship.
If someone says they find me attractive and interesting [i may wonder at their eyesight] I tend to say thankyou, and i might mention [if appropriate] that they have lovely eyes, or hair or whatever feature I happen to like as well, and return to the discussion of basketweaving…like ‘Thanks, and you have lovely green eyes, I have always liked green eyes. Have you been collecting serbian baskets long?’ which is a good redirect to get back to the subject at hand without totally ignoring a compliment, yet not particularly ‘leading’ them on as I stop discussing their looks, or my looks [unless I need to respond that yes I made my dress myself or that I dont dye my hair] Anybody you have more than a 5 minute conversation about the weather can generally be assumed to be interesting in some manner or another.
In eq or world of warcraft, I have had guys come out and ask me what I look like, and I usually will send them to the page of pictures of myself and my husband, and I am no raving beauty - i am a pretty dumpy hausfrau. It takes a determined lech to hit on me after that. If they want to keep discussing the best build for a druid, that is fine, but I will not flirt. I have had a conversation in person with a man that I did tell he matched my ideal physical man, and that it was a shame I was taken. For an actor, he was pretty normal, and after one light ‘hit’ he accepted that whereas I did appreciate his looks, I wasn’t hitting on him or receptive to being hit upon, and I was already taken. We then had a lovely weekends worth of hanging out and talking. We still chat via email after 4 years.
Ludicrous. The last marriage I went to was between a couple who had been living together for close to 15 years and already had two kids. They married because it was more convenient from a legal point of view. Go and tell them they weren’t commited and that their relationship wasn’t “real” until they got this “seal”…
When I think about it, both my married brothers maried women they had been living with for years. My third (unmarried and childless) brother has been living with the same woman for 15 years or so too. Yes…that’s just not “real” and there’s no “commitment”…
Right, and of course it is just as true of a commitment as any other. But the fact remains, if you want other people to respect that commitment, you have to annouce it in someway beyond just calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend. Marriage is one way to do this. There are other ways. But it is not at all reasonable to assume people will know you are in a serious commited relationship as opposed to a casual, exploratory one unless you tell them in some form or fashion.
So, if I’m reading this right, the two week old marriage of two total strangers in a mass wedding ceremony by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon is more inviolate than the relationship between two people who have been living together in a mutually committed and monogamous relationship for many years? The first two have an established bond that must be respected, and the second two are just “dating”?
Depends on how, exactly, the two people interact. Maybe she’s bored, and curious, or at least interested in flirting some. Who knows? And who gets to ‘legislate’?
Are they giving out licenses to hold opinions now? Where should I wait in line to get mine?
You lose.
The two aren’t interrelated? Seduction can’t be partially verbal?
Quite possible to do it respectfully, assure you.
Which ‘culture’, exactly, are you refering to?
Are you honestly going to make a sweeping generalization and say that for all age ranges, for all generations, for all lifestyles, being in a relationship implies that they aren’t interested in anybody else?
For the most part, yes, American culture is puritanical. But that doesn’t mean some women don’t welcome a polite and respectful show of desire, and answer, pretty much “How about a raincheck?”.
It happens, in this ‘culture’, in this country. And evidently, some people aren’t all squicked out by it.
Aint never seen no gentlemen nor ladies.
Sure seen a lot o’ men and women, though.
There is nothing inherently dishonorable about asking, (again, politely and respectfully) if you had a chance with anybody. For fuck’s sake, it’s a compliment to their attractiveness and unless you’re a jerk about it, unthreatening and non-pressuring.
Um, I don’t want to go tell them that, because it would be stupid and it’s not what I’m saying.
The reality was there, they were a commited couple dedicated, at the very least, to raising kids. As such, marriage was simply a seal upon what was already going on. A label. A grid. A mere glazing of semantic dew.
Grok?
No, that is “real” and there is “commitment” but even if, for example, if a couple is “married” and they’ll “sleep around without permission” or “not respect their partner”, they’re legally married without anything “real” being there.
See it’s the reality and not the name that matters, yes?
Read irishgirl and CCL’s recounts of actual situations, Finn. You strike me, by your tone, that you’re not the kind of guy who stops after the first no. By your example, even. The scenario should be:
Man: Buy you a drink?
Woman: No
Man: Okay, have a nice night.
There should be no prying, slandering/threatening/demeaning of absent SO. Do men honestly think that’s attractive? Because I find it skeevy. Per your quotes, if you’re hitting on women who aren’t interested in you just to prove you’re rebelling against society and fighting a just cause, uh… dude.
Because I’ve never experienced and acutual situation and their data points are valid for all point-events.
Yeep.
Really? My obsessive and almost compulsive harping on that one should be polite and respectful makes you think I’d pester a woman after she’d said no?
'cept I don’t hit on women in bars, and my example wasn’t set in a bar, and I’m not concerned, at all, with what’s proper protocol for hitting on people in bars.
In general, of course not.
But I’m sure you can understand that some women are bored with their partners and, at the very least, welcome the chance to flirt with someone new, and perhaps are interested in meeting someone new. More than once, a man, or a woman, has been with a partner because it was better than being single and they hadn’t met anybody new, yet.
This is, of course, only one possible situation in which there isn’t such strange ‘sinfuless’ that you’re trying to place on it.
Why, yes, prying and pressing and being an asshole are indeed skeevy. Which is why it’s important that whatever you do is done politely and respectfully. Which means, unless the girl is interested in talking about how her boyfriend sucks, and some are, then you don’t talk about that.
:rolleyes:
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude!
Per my quotes, I am rejecting your false to facts, puritanical, insensitive to individualistic desires and individual situations, blanket condemnation of, what is, no bussiness of anybody but the man and woman (or man and man, or woman and woman) involved.
I don’t hit on women who aren’t interested, primarily and pragmatically, because it’s not worth my time. It’s also lame, obnoxious, and can border on stalking if you’re a real asshole.
~shrugs~
Moralize away.
The comment about the seal on reality appeared to contradict this position.
Of course. But anyway, like many other posters, I think the burden rest on the shoulders of the person who commited. Hitting on somebody, single or not, commited or not, married or not isn’t morally wrong (as long as it’s not obnoxious, of course, but this is true even when the person is single). I you made promises, wows, or whatever else, you’re the only one responsible for breaking them. It’s not up to third parties to uphold them.
If you don’t know anything about the relationship except that there is one (which is the situation I was referring to) you don’t get to have an opinion. For god’s sake, where are you going to get it from, unless you’ve got a horribly bloated ego to the point where you’re sure you’re better for her than any other guy could possibly be, ever?
Of course seduction can be partially verbal. For me, actually, it’s almost all verbal. But telling a girl that you’re better for her than her boyfriend is not seductive. You say it’s possible to do it respectfully, but at best you’re veiling a patronizing attitude, implying that you know better than she does. Frankly, even if I were bored with my boyfriend and half looking for someone else, meeting with this attitude would turn me off completely. And I don’t think I’m that abnormal.
(BTW, it might be okay, if her tone implied that she was less than happy with the relationship, to ask if she was interested in something else. But specifying yourself as the someone else while using the word “better” in the sentence, is rather arrogant.)
You’re always allowed to have an opinion. Your opinion may be wrong, it may be unfounded, but that wouldn’t necessarily make it a malicious or wrong opinion.
In some cases (I guess we do need to be more clear), like the one I was thinking of when I wrote, are the women I’ve known. One in particular springs to mind, with a boyfriend who was wacked out of his mind on drugs and had just smashed a window in at her apartment in an attempt to get in when she wouldn’t see him.
Are you honestly going to moralize at me and tell me that politely letting her know I was interested was wrong? Evidently she didn’t think it was, and we ended up spending some time together once she’d gotten rid of her boyfriend. She was a good friend of mine before I told her I was interested, and after.
Some folk do have that opinion.
Think they’re Gawd’s gift to the opposite sex.
But even in that case, their assumption isn’t an attempt to say “I’ll think for you” but “I arrive in my majestic splendor, notice me, for I am better than whoever you might have!”
Or so I’d think.
Anybody with a more humerous thougt pattern for someone who thought they were an uber stud-or-babe?
If anything it shows a swelled head, but not specifically, disrespect.
Unless you are. And she’s been hinting at it. And she enjoys the flirtation. And she wants to feel loved and wanted and appreciated. And maybe she doesn’t want to do anything with you then and there but she wants you to know she appreciates it and maybe she’s a little interested. Or maybe she’s curious and finds your brashness/arroagance interesting. Or maybe she’s got an open relationship and she’ll be happy to agree that one man isn’t enough for her and she’d like to talk to you and find out more about where you’re at. Or maybe, or maybe, or maybe.
There are simply too many situations to moralize about it as a generalization.
Nonsense.
“I have enough respect for you to talk to you honestly and openly and directly, and I think that I would treat you better than your boyfriend does.”
Of course, that’s writing and not speaking, and it’s a bit wooden, but you get the idea, right? It’s a suggestion, it’s an offer. It’s not saying “You’re stupid, you don’t know what’s good for you, come with me.”
Just “Hey, ever considered what the grass is like on the other side?”
And that’s fine!
You are allowed and encouraged to like what you like, be turned on by what you’re turned on by, and turned off what you’re turned off by.
But also, accept that what turns you off, might just turn other people on.
Pshaw.
Fuck normal up the ass sideways.
There is no normal, merely statistical aggregates. There is a sea of individuality which we whitewash with names, labels, grids.
But reality is primal and vital, and does not fit into our dead ink.
What if she’s hinted that you might be someone better?
What if she hints that’s exactly how she’d like to be seduced?
What if that’s the dance she wants?
Sorry if I wasn’t totally clear or if I was a bit snarky. At the bottom of a dogpile it’s hard to tell just what you’re swinging at. My apologies.
Can everybody in the thread at least agree to this?
D’oh!
malicously wrong.