Obviously there are different levels of boyfriend and girlfriend. By the time my wife and I got married, the actual marriage was just a formality.
To answer your question, no you’ve done nothing wrong. She on the other hand, has done a whole lot wrong. The burden is on her.
And, by the way, people hit on my wife all the time. As long as she turns them down, why should I care? I’d rather she get hit on and say “No” than not get hit on at all, to tell you the truth.
I hate to pull the “they aren’t your real friends” motherly advice, but I don’t think there is a way to entrap a woman into cheating. I don’t understand why you should care if your SO is hit on. It’s not an insult to you. It’s something of a compliment to her (if not done sleazily). As long as she says, “No” there is no harm. And, if she says, “Yes” then chances are she is not a very significant O.
FinnAgain, you’re coming off as lecherous and rather creepy. Five makes your point far better–it’s the woman’s decision. The boyfriend/husband/lesbian-love-interest doesn’t own her, pre- or post-commitment. She can do whatever she wants. But Christ, stop leering at her like that. She’s not just something to fuck in your bed.
That’s how I use them, anyway. By the initial criteria in this thread, i.e. if you consider an agreement to exclusivity to be “engagement,” I’ve been engaged to quite a number of people - in fact, to practically everyone with whom I’ve been on more than 2 or 3 dates.
Wow, that’s terrifying. Well, at least I guess I’m not a commitmentphobe. And here I thought I’d never been engaged before.
(And yes, in case you haven’t figured it out, I think it’s wrong to pursue someone else’s S.O. in any concerted fashion. Hinting that you might be interested if he/she were single is one thing; the full-court press, pun intended, is something else.)
I don’t even see the argument here.
If you hit on a woman that’s in a relationship and she’s happy in that relationship…she’s going to say no.
If she says yes…it ain’t the asker doing the hurting.
To paraphrase the original question, yes, I think it’s all right to hit on someone’s girlfriend (if you are in fact single!). I don’t think it’s all that terrible to hit on someone’s wife. If you are on the receiving end of the hit, then it is absolutely wrong to accept.
If I come back from the bathroom at a bar, and there’s some dude hitting on my wife, I’m not going to muster up my testosterone, grab a pool cue and go to town. I’m going to sit down the bar, smile a little smile, and let my wife deal with it. She’ll probably even brag about how she’s still got it on the cab ride home.
And, I get hit on occaisionally too. I tell her about it. Though I embelish a bit, and the frumpy woman at the gym is suddenly a college aged, super model in my version…
Obviously there are levels and levels here, and no hard and fast rules about what it appropriate. The more serious a person’s romantic relationship appears to be, the less appropriate it is to send out signals. That said, it is often ambigious how serious a relationship is. The whole fucking point (or at least one fucking point) of marriage is to get rid of that ambiguity.and stand up before god and everybody and say “this is, unambigously, a commited relationship”. You don’t have to do that to be commited–commitment is a private thing–but if you want a public acknowledgement of your commitment, it is your job to make your commited status unambigously clear. It doesn’t have to be through marriage–that’s just a quick and conventional way to do it–but the burden is on you to do so.
If you have not made your commitment status unambigiously clear in some form or fashion, then I don’t see how it could be considered disrespectful for someone to be unaware of it. And if someone’s commitment is still somewhat amorphous and ambigious, then I think seeing if they wouldn’t prefer someone else is legitimate. I mean, if you meet someone, and fall head over heels into amazed awe and admiration and lust, why should the fact that she’s sorta seeing this guy from work keep you from pursuing her?
One last thought: I knew a guy once who had a real abhorance about the idea of anyone ever even entertaining a romantic notion about a girl who was dating another guy. In this particular case, it was because all his important relationships were with other men, and his conception of a sort of “men’s code” was central to his life: he felt a sort of kinship with the never-met boyfriends of women he met, and betraying that kinship was literally unthinkable to him. To him, women were sort of like “the other team”, and betraying one of HIS team for the sake of a member of the other team was not an option–it was like apostacy. At the time I thought it illustrated why it was he never had a girlfriend. Obviously, not everyone who feels any dating women is taboo has the same motives as this guy, but it was interesting to watch.
Whoa! Reeder nails it! (After all these years, we agree on something.)
Ok, Shakes, since I’m one of the offenders in the original thread, I’ll respond.
Go back and read the OP in that thread. The girl was alone at the function where she and CG started their conversation. She subsequently spent two hours alone on Friday night and three hours alone on Saturday night . She spent this time online chatting with CG. Where’s the alleged boyfriend in all this? Does a girl in a committed relationship act as she’s been acting? The answer is NO!
If the relationship with boyfriend was ever serious, it’s blown now. The girl herself has invited CG to “hit on her”. Whether or not the Bf, or even the girl herself are yet fully aware of it, she’s lookin’ for a better situation.
Somebody’s going to fill the void. It might even be Our Hero, if he gets off the computer and goes to see her before somebody else does.
Yeah I don’t get that either. Why would there have to be a ring on your finger or some indication that you’ve followed a tradition they believe in before they consider you actually in a comitted relationship? Not everyone has designs to get ‘married’, and not everyone follows the lockstep ‘stages’ of a relationship - some people can have committment without all the cookie cutter steps.
And apparently to some people in this thread is only accepted if it’s made in a manner they indicate. As in ‘there has to be a ring on the finger’. That may be their way of doing things, but it’s certainly not mine.
Unless the traditional date-engaged-married thing isn’t for you and you’re not interested in getting some piece of paper to prove the validity of your relationship. I wouldn’t consider a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with my SO to just be ‘dating.’ I don’t put that much effort into ‘dating’.
Dating is when your interaction consists mostly of going on dates. A relationship goes far beyond that, and may even include less dates and more days where you’re at each other’s homes (or even live together) doing normal, daily things together. There’s cooking, laundry and grocery shopping involved in ‘relationship’. There’s the whole idea that it goes without saying that the other person will be there at events like the family barbecue for Memorial Day or on a random Thursday afternoon. You can drop in on each other unplanned (if not living together) and it’s not a big deal. Dating is way, way different than relationship status.
I don’t think it’s that terrible if you’ve hit on them, but if they say ‘I have a boyfriend/girlfriend.’ as an answer to the hitting-on, the game is over. That is not an invitation to a challenge.
I was in a very comitted long-distance relationship for 2 years. he’s now moved over to be near me, we’re living together, and getting married in September.
So, for 2 years, I would have been alone at functions, on my own on Friday and Saturday nights, and most definitely NOT available.
It pissed me off when guys would ask me out, I’d tell them I had a boyfriend and that wouldn’t end the chat-up attempts.
“If it’s so serious, why isn’t he here?”
“What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him.”
“Why don’t you find someone who’s actually in the same city?Like me!”
Etc etc. Some of them just would not take no for an answer.
The only person who didn’t piss me off was one of my friends. It was St Paddy’s day and all our friends were out of town on a trip, so we went to a bar, and then back to his for a drink. At some point he said “So, is irishfella cool about you hooking up with other guys?”, I said “No, and neither am I”. That was that and we’re still friends to this day.
Fine, ask if you must, but keep it classy, and don’t push the point.
I think the argument comes in if you know that the person is seeing/dating/whatever qualifier you put with the relationship. Then it’s an issue of respect.
If a stranger does it, it’s fine as far as I’m concerned. If someone who know that the person that is in the relationship does it, then they are teh sux0rs.
A while ago, a person at work was hitting on Alias fairly persistently. This was back when we worked at the same job. He knew we were in a very long relationship but kept trying anyway. I never thought that Alias was going to leave me. The guy was a bit of a pansy. Not that he was skinny; he worked out quite a bit. He was just kind of a weeper. It was just a matter of respect.
He knew me. He knew Alias. He knew that we had been together for a loooooong time. He just thought that he was the better man. :mad: Almost had to drag him behind the woodshed for a whuppin’.
I would agree with that. If one of my buddies hit on my wife, yeah, there’d be a problem. Some guy in a bar? Nah. I don’t care.
I have only to say that I have seen many unmarried couples who appear much more committed to each other than many of the married couples I have met.
Perhaps, a marriage certificate has absolutely nothing to do with the value of a relationship?
Hah! By saying what, exactly? That people aren’t property? That it’s always fair to tell someone you’re interested as long as you’re not obnoxious or rude? Those are creepy, lecherous? I think you’re far too easily creeped out.
How wonderfully sexist. You think a boyfriend has never been tempted?
You can see someone leering, through text? Damn, you’re good. :rolleyes:
But, guess what? Even if you see someone who has a SO, and you hit on them for just sex, that’s stil okay! You’re allowed to want what you want, and if the object of your desire isn’t intersted, there’s no game. It’s as simple as that.
Who used the phrase less value?
If you’re in a commited (ie. lifelong) relationship that’s one thing. But being boyfriend and girlfriend is just dating. Even if you’re monogamous. Even if you have to break up to be apart. If you’ve got a lifelong commitment that’s something different than just dating. But even if you had a lifelong commitment, someone is still within their rights to hit on you. (So, just to clarify, boyfriend/girlfriend are disposable. But if you’re agreed to spend your life with someone they’re no longer just a boyfriend/girlfriend. They’re a fiancee, with or without a ring on their finger)
NB: Dating can, and does, include things far more ‘serious’ than ‘going on dates’. Got a live-in-lover? You’re dating. Got someone who you see every day? You’re still dating. Dating is what you do before you make, with the ‘proper’ symbols or without, a comitment for the rest of your life. If you’ve got a boyfriend/girlfriend and you’ve A) agreed that you’re getting married B) want to spend your life with each other they’re not just your sig’ nif’ other’, they are, in quite a real sense, your fiancee. (And it’s still okay to hit on them.)
Nope. Most dating is monagomous. It’s still just dating.
No, it’s still just dating, and having a monogamous agreement. Agreeing that you won’t sleep with other people while you’re dating you SO is hardly a lifelong promise.
True enough. But even if someone’s decided to be monoagmous with someone else you’re well within your rights to hit on them.
Ooh! Pulling an Othello! Quite tricky of you! 
But no, I don’t buy that. If you were in a relationship, and then someone came along who was, without a doubt in your mind, a better person for you to be with, would you stay with the one who wasn’t as good for you? Just because you were with them first?
Does it make sense that, necessarily, someone better than you for the person would have to come along?
Sometimes, it makes sense to leave your lover, even if you had been in a monogamous relationship, even if you’d been in a commited relationship.
And simply as a caveat, even if the person who you ‘steal away’ would be likely to leave you too some day… so? Would you really want your SO to be somewhere that wasn’t the best place for them? If so, that’s not love, not contact and connection. It’s power and possesion.
Who said it was easy to seduce them away? Maybe it was just because you’re right for them. Or, let’s say it was easy. As long as you weren’t attempting to force your SO to do something which they weren’t hapiest with, it wouldn’t be a problem. As long as they’re with you because they want to be, you have nothing to worry about.
Again, what logically dictates that they must be fickle in such a situation? What if someone’s got an SO and it’s just out of momentum, and the spark has gone out, and it doesn’t make them happy anymore… and you showing interest is enough to get someone to change their life and get out of a rut, with regards to the relationship?
Bottom line, any relationship is volitional.
Jesus christ on a crutch, remind me never to speak to you on ICQ, no matter if we are both the worlds #1 and 2 experts on underwater backet weaving and we want to casually discuss UnderSerbian pre WW2 baskets, because I will have been having a wild fling with you behind mrAru’s back!
Can’t someone freaking TALK with someone that they find interesting without it becoming a hitting upon affair? Can I at least TALK to a man without it being seen as me flirting with them?
Crap on a stick, I talk to LOTS of guys online on a day to day basis, so I must be the whore of Babylon. And yes, they all know about mrAru, and that I am not looking to screw around, I am interested in talking about WoW, EQ, Rammstein, what is on TV, how crappy PorkLipz Now is, or my best recipe for scallops.
:smack:
Hitting on? Yes. But flirtation is notoriously ephemeral. You can sometimes flirt with someone by saying the same exact things you would to anybody else, but by smiling. Or pitching your voice just right, or…
So you might just be acting friendly, and someone will think you’re flirting with them. No big deal, it’s not like they threw you over their shoulder and tried to escape with you, just that they thought you were interested. There are far greater sins in this world, right?
Fact of the matter is, many guys, having a woman talking to them for hour upon hour on an friday and a saturday night, would probably assume some from of interest, no matter how minor.
I think a lot of the argument here is that there’s a world of difference between hitting on someone and actively pursuing them. Asking once and accepting a shootdown is one thing; telling a woman that her relationship doesn’t matter and she should go out with you is something else altogether. The former is fine, the latter is being a shitheel.
Like Irishgirl, I’ve had guys keep pushing after I’ve turned them down and told them I was in a relationship. One went so far as to tell me that if Dr.J loved me, there would be a ring on my finger, so I should ditch my relationship of six years and go out with him. As she said, that’s a fabulous way to piss a woman off. It’s also a real good way to get yourself a lecture about who the fuck you think you are to pass judgement on a relationship you know absolutely nothing about when the fact that she said no should have been enough to shut you up entirely in the first place.
And Finn, you’re coming across as skeevy because your comments seem to convey an utter disdain for boundaries, both the ones society generally recognizes and the ones people have individually drawn. People like that, as a general thing, tend to be really freakin’ creepy. You sound almost like that guy I nearly ran over with my car to get the hell away from him after he wouldn’t be dissuaded by my refusals to go out with him and started not only trying to convince me that my relationship wasn’t that great but asking me questions about where I lived and worked.
And I have to disagree that going after anyone you want is fine. Wanting what you want is fine, yes. We don’t have any control over what we want. But we do have control over what we do, so doing whatever we want isn’t fine. It’s fine for me to want to jump over the counter and strangle a major asshole client. It’s decidedly not fine for me to act on that urge.
CCL, would you say the following is objectionable:
Man sits next to woman (alone) in bar.
Man: Can I buy you a drink?
Woman: I’m not sure that’s appropriate. I have a boyfriend.
Man: So, is he, like, a serious boyfriend?
Woman: Pretty serious. Yes.
Man: So, then I have no shot?
Woman: None.
Man: All right then.
That’s the kind of situation I’m talking about. I see no problems with the above man’s actions.
Agreed. You do not actively persue someone who’s made it clear they don’t want you. It’s rude.
I disagree… if the way you hit on someone is to say “Yeah, I know you’ve got a lover, but I’d be better for you.” Well… as long as you accept no as an answer, you’re not being a (total) asshole. And yes, you have the right to pass judgement on anything in your peceptual sphere, up to and including the relationships of other people. If they don’t agree with you, and feel their relationship is worth more, and that you’re just an annoyance, that’s their call. But it’s still not wrong to suggest that someone leave their SO for you.
So while it might offend you that someone doesn’t value your relationship as much as you do, they’re under no obligation to. And I’m sure, every once in a while, the guy/girl saying “I’d be better for you.” is right, right, right. But I will agree that depending on the exact phrasing/attitute/body language, it could be skeevy. Doesn’t have to be though.
CCL… no offense, but what the fuck???
As for individual boundaries, if someone tells you to stop hitting on them, you stop. Unless you’re a stalker or a rapist. And you can’t know their boundaries until you ask.
As for societal boundaries, are you honestly going to support them? Gay marriage is wrong? Homosexuality is wrong? Polyamory is wrong? Please… society is no arbiter.
Cite for where I’ve even implied that it’s polite to keep persuing someone once they’ve made it clear they want you to leave them alone? I think you hit the nail on the head, what I’m saying is, for some reason, reminding you of a skeevy guy. But I challenge you to find anything skeevy about my actual claims
Horrible analogy, and you know it!
Jumping over a counter to inflict violence upon someone who most certainly wouldn’t consent to being beaten is lightyears away from asking some if they’d consent to being with you and accepting ‘no’ as an answer.
[Robert’s Rules of Disorder] Seconded [/Robert’s rules]