This seems to be in the same territory as Ender’s hypothetical.
If it really was an honest mistake, why would you feel like you were being taken for a sucker? I don’t get that.
Is there reason to believe the customer intentionally left the money?
Unless, of course, you had already spent the money on something you wouldn’t have otherwise… in that case, I don’t think you would be morally obligated to return it.
The management should really be dealing with this situation, rather than setting up an employee for a confrontation without even knowing if he still has the money.
Come on Sauron, you can keep up.
A reasonable time for the customer to make it an issue. He needed to get back to that place one way or the other before it closed that night. Or damn early the next morning (If you’re going to toss the, 'Well what if the restaurant closed ten minutes after he left? Huh!?!).
It doesn’t matter at all when the waiter left, only the customer and how much time elapsed from when he left and when he made it an issue with the restaurant/waiter. It needs to be reasonable.
I mean, the other way, the waiter could grab the money, get the hell out of their right away, and claim a reasonable amount of time had passed, and still be within a parsers window of opportunity.
Sorry, no dice.
No, I’m not talking about a hypothetical. I’m saying some people would feel that if they caved in to the unreasonable demands of the fellow, they’d feel like he’d taken them for a sucker – that they’d let him browbeat them into doing something, that they’d let him get his way by disrespecting them. I’d certainly feel a bit like that in a similar situation.
Daniel
And I’m sorry Sauron. I see that in my earlier post I came off crabbier than I meant.
Apologies.
OK. Personally, if I believed the person when they said it was an accident, and if I still had the money, I don’t see a reason to feel like it was beneath me to give it back.
Also, we don’t know exactly how the customer is asking. While it is possible he is saying “you stole me money!”, which would make me mad, but not make me think returning it was the wrong thing to do, it is also possible he is saying “I didn’t mean to leave that money, and I need it back”, which while not exactly humble, isn’t insulting in my opinion.
No worries, CnoteChris.
I’m confused by “reasonable time,” though. Even allowing for variables among individuals regarding personal integrity, introducing something so vague as “reasonable length of time to make it an issue” seems … I dunno, contrived.
Two hours isn’t enough time, but three hours is plenty? I just don’t see that.
Why would someone intentionally leave that much money and then change his mind hours later? It was obviously a mistake. Did he think it was a truly fabulous meal — for a little while?
The waiter kid will look like a little sleazeball if he doesn’t pony up the cash…
And yes, I still think the customer was a jerk (unless there was a truly pressing reason for retrieving his $20). But that’s hardly the point.
I’m sorry Daniel but even after your explanation I cannot fathom how anyone can feel they have been made a sucker if they give the money back. If this had actually happened to you and you gave me that excuse I would probably laugh and say, “Yeah, right. Funny how maintaining your personal integrity makes you twenty doallars richer.”
Ethically, that’s probably not the point. From a self-respect standpoint, it may well be the point.
And Octopus, I’d laugh right back, and say, “Yeah, right Funny how your interpretation of ethics would make YOU twenty dollars richer.” Ain’t this fun?
Daniel
OK. Here’s a direct quote from Williston on Contracts:
Or how about this, also a direct quote from Williston on Contracts:
Williston on Contracts, Section 70:207.
As I said earlier in this thread, the waiter has, nor should have, any claim to the money. Suppose the guy caught his mistake a mere 3 seconds after giving the two twenties to the waiter? Suppose he handed the money over, said keep it, and then 3 seconds later realized it was 2 twenties instead of 1? Would any of you really be saying that the waiter wouldn’t, nor shouldn’t, have to give it back?
I agree with, gulp, sailor, that the idea that the waiter has some entitlement to property that wasn’t supposed to be his, is a troubling sign.
Who has the burden to prove that gift was or was not more than intended? How long after the tip can can the tipper claim the mistake?
Can I go back and demand bak tips from a year ago on the grounds that it was more than I intended to leave?
Also, what if the waiter already spent the money and no longer has it? What recourse does the tipper have? Should he file in small claims court for a chicken twenty dollar “debt?” Is he really likely to do that?
I think the waiter should make the tipper actually jump through the hoops if he really wants the money back. He shouldn’t volunteer anything. Make the guy get a judge to order it first.
Also, what if the waiter already spent the money and no longer has it? What recourse does the tipper have? Should he file in small claims court for a chickenshit twenty dollar “debt?” Is he really likely to do that?
I think the waiter should make the tipper actually jump through the hoops if he really wants the money back. He shouldn’t volunteer anything. Make the guy get a judge to order it first.
To answer your concerns, Diogenes, the burden, if it went to court, would be on the tipper to prove, by a preponderence of the evidence, that the extra $20 was a mistake. Given that the tip was over 100% tip, and that he reported it relatively quickly, would indicate to me that it was, indeed, a mistake.
I will leave it to those who actually practice civil law, but there is a statute on how long after you can file a suit in civil court (3 years, if memory serves, but don’t quote me). If you want to be a buttwipe, feel free to go back and sue for your prior tips, of course, you’d have a real tough time proving it was a mistake.
And speaking of being a buttwipe, making the guy who made a mistake jump through hoops and force him to sue you before you’ll do the right thing, kinda qualifies you, in my book, makes you a buttwipe.
Exactly. His mistake.
[quote**…a mere 3 seconds after giving the two twenties to the waiter? Suppose he handed the money over, said keep it, and then 3 seconds later realized it was 2 twenties instead of 1? Would any of you really be saying that the waiter wouldn’t, nor shouldn’t, have to give it back?**[/QUOTE]
Yes, of course he should. And if the guy had paid at a register, the person operating the register should catch the extra $20 and return it. But neither of those things happened.
[IMHO]What we have is a guy who tried to pull a fast one on a somewhat dim waiter by making it sound like he was leaving a larger than normal tip. Which, as it turns out, is exactly what happened, through no fault of the waiter. The customer knows he got burned by his own joke and is being an ass by not only demanding restitution but also implying that the waiter played him for a fool.[/IMHO]
Why would you give him that much control over your emotions?
Hypothetical: You have determined for yourself that any amount less than (fill in the blank) is not worth a quarrel. You acknowledge to yourself that sometimes people will take advantage of you but that in the longrun, you will be a happier person if you don’t let these things get under your skin. No one can really make a sucker of you if you have decided this ahead of time.
What you have to decide is what amount goes in the blank. How much is your peace of mind worth?
Just for the fun of it, imagine what might happen if Jeff not only gave him the $20 back, but said something really outrageous such as, “If you came back for this, you must need it more than I. Would you like a bite of lunch?” Or “Here’s an extra $5 for your trouble.”
(I’m not beyond the mischief of finding it worth it to see his reaction.)
You are right that each person has to decide these things for themselves. But one thing that you said does intrigue me because I think it may reflect an almost automatic mindset for many people:
Why?
I am enjoying your posts.
Varies by state and by type of civil lawsuit. In Illinois, it’d be 5 years.
(Sorry for quoting you.)
Has anybody else ever done this kind of thing to him/herself? Scene: My roommate had gone home for an undetermined amount of time for a family emergency & Christmas holidays. We were still young enough that “home” was where our parents lived even if 1000 miles away.
Meanwhile, the landlord came through with paint to do the kitchen. While getting everything out of the shelves I found, on the very top shelf where nothing was ever stored, $75 in cash.
I immediately called another friend and we went out on the town.
Couple of days later I get a card from my roommate. (Does anybody else see what’s coming here?) It said something like, "Family situation cleared up but I’m staying through the holidays, forgot to tell you, in case I don’t get back in time my half of the January rent is on the top shelf in the kitchen!
Uh oh.
Boy was I mad at the person who’d led me to believe that money had been left there by the previous tenant for me to find. . . and spend.
This is why I’m with Jeff. If he’s already spent the money, which he quite legimately regarded as his since it was, after all, handed to him, why should he have to reach into his pocket and give it back?
At what point can you regard money someone gives you as your own? And particularly where it’s a tip, which is the main source of all your income.
Has anybody else ever done this kind of thing to him/herself? Scene: My roommate had gone home for an undetermined amount of time for a family emergency & Christmas holidays. We were still young enough that “home” was where our parents lived even if 1000 miles away.
Meanwhile, the landlord came through with paint to do the kitchen. While getting everything out of the shelves I found, on the very top shelf where nothing was ever stored, $75 in cash.
I immediately called another friend and we went out on the town.
Couple of days later I get a card from my roommate. (Does anybody else see what’s coming here?) It said something like, "Family situation cleared up but I’m staying through the holidays, forgot to tell you, in case I don’t get back in time my half of the January rent is on the top shelf in the kitchen!
Uh oh.
Boy was I mad at the person who’d led me to believe that money had been left there by the previous tenant for me to find. . . and spend. Oh wait, that person was . . . me.
This is why I’m with Jeff. If he’s already spent the money, which he quite legimately regarded as his since it was, after all, handed to him, why should he have to reach into his pocket and give it back?
At what point can you regard money someone gives you as your own? And particularly where it’s a tip, which is the main source of all your income.