Who's More Wrong Here?

I’m with Jeff on this one.

Had ChoadMonkeyCustomer (who I will refer to as CMC) caught his mistake immediately … as in, before he left the parking lot of the restaurant, I could see it reasonable that he’d go back in, apologize profusely and ask for his $20 back. If he were a decent person, he’d give Jeff $10 of it even though Jeff doesn’t deserve it and apologize some more.

However, he came in 3 hours later. $20 is a LOT of money to me these days and it wouldn’t take me 3 hours to figure out it was gone if I’d accidentally given someone too much money. Jeff has already gone home and won’t be back for a few days. Tough cookies, I say. By the time poor Jeff finds out about this, that money is probably going to be gone and he shouldn’t have to pay it back. CMC should chalk it up to experience and move on. Brand new 20 bills stick together. It's not Jeff's problem that CMC threw the money in the book and left. What are waiters supposed to do? Anytime they get a tip over the normal amount, quiz the customer and go "are you SURE about this?" Do we get customers to sign forms saying "Yes, I meant to give my waiter, __________ (name) ___ for a tip tonight at __________ restaurant."

And the manager is a total wimp for not standing up for Jeff when CMC came in. A manager with balls would have told CMC too bad, Jeff’s gone, nothing can be done, better luck next time. But then managers aren’t known for loyalty towards their employees in the restaurant world, they’re too busy kissing customer ass at the expense of the employees. I’m particularly ticked at the manager because this is an out of town customer who will probably never come back again. Maybe I’d have more sympathy for him if this was a regular customer who ate his lunch there 3-5 times a week.

I’m curious: does Jeff even know about this yet? Last Audrey posted (unless I missed something in my admittedly quick scan of the posts since I last visited) Jeff was unaware of the situation…

What happened, Audrey? I’m curious, as this thread has turned into a really interesting discussion on ethics…

Hi Dopers!

Geez…my thread has morphed into a monster while I was away…

Okay, here’s the Straight Dope, such as I have. :smiley:

When I went into work today, Jeff was there, and had been informed of the situation; he was bitter about the whole thing, but he said, “Well, if the guy comes back for it tonight, I guess I’ll give it to him, but if he doesn’t come back by the end of my shift, it’s so mine!”

The thing is…guilty gulp there’s more than one bar where I work, and I didn’t work at Jeff’s service-bar tonight…so I don’t know if the guy came back or not. I was in a totally different bar in another area of the building.

However, I am inclined to think he didn’t, b/c it was very quiet again tonight, and the other bartender who did work in Jeff’s area said he heard nothing about it. Nor did the (different) manager mention anything about it to me, and I’m positive he would have, just b/c this sort of thing obviously doesn’t happen very often. (And this is a manager who, based on previous experience, would have almost certainly solved the problem immediately had he been present…unlike Chris the other night, whose middle name is Pass The Buck.)

But I won’t know for sure until tomorrow night when I go back to work. wince I know, it’s awful, I started this thread and then went to work tonight and mentioned it to Jeff…got his viewpoint for you all…and then totally spaced the follow-up til I got home because I worked another bar.

However, it is established that Jeff was willing to give the guy his money back, if the guy came back for it tonight. Whether the guy did or not, I don’t know yet…but I’m pretty sure I would’ve heard if he had, b/c gossip is the lifeline of any restaurant. :smiley:

I do apologize for not being positive, though. I hope you don’t all think I really suck. I swear I’ll find out tomorrow for sure!

As for the moral and ethical side of it, which is obviously a hotly debated issue…

Tipping is kind of separate, in my opinion, from other questions of this nature; the intention of any tipper who says “Here is your tip” is, by default, to give the waiter/bartender whatever that tip amount is. Regardless of how huge/small it is. This is a transaction that’s not cut-and-dried; it’s not like working a till, where X amount is required and expected, and anything that deviates is obviously an error on somebody’s part.

I’ve gotten stiffed, I’ve gotten horrible tips, I’ve gotten average tips, and I’ve gotten incredible tips. I never assume that any of them were a mistake; to me, it’s part of the job I took, and I always assume that people give me the tip they intended me to have.

The problem with saying that somebody can take back a tip is that if they can, why can’t everybody else? I’ve gotten tips from some pretty intoxicated people before, and the tips were probably a lot more than they’d have been if the people were sober. Does that mean that they can come back later, when they’ve sobered up, and tell me they made a mistake and want their money back? Does it make it wrong for me to even take such a tip, knowing that they’ve had a six-pack and that they’re feeling more generous than they normally would? Am I stealing from them? Should I tell people not to tip me an unusually large amount, in case they regret it later? What about people who are drunk and forget to tip me at all? Should I assume they meant to, and remind them? Or should I just assume they didn’t want to tip me? It works both ways.

You see where I’m going.

A tip is mine the moment you give it to me, plain and simple. I have no control over what you give me, so I’m going to assume you know what you’re doing, whether it’s a great or a horrible tip. Otherwise there’s room there for you to come back and want your money back, or room for me to “explain” to you that you made a mistake and probably meant to tip me more than you did. That won’t work!

Which is why I say the money belongs to Jeff. Because Jeff, like the rest of us, assumes that what is handed to us as a tip is what was intended to be ours. And I don’t think it’s fair to assume there’s a gray area there…b/c otherwise Jeff also has the right to pipe up and say, “Hey man, you must’ve made a mistake. You only tipped me ten percent.” How pissed off would customers be if we said that! And to me it works both ways. A really bad tip is never assumed to be a mistake, so why should a really big one automatically be under suspicion?

That’s my logic, anyway. You can argue about the morality of taking advantage of the customer’s obvious mistake, but the fact remains that all waiters operate under the assumption that whatever they get is what they were meant to have. And to turn that back around on the waiter, and try to work out some kind of deal where a tip can be debated later because he was supposed to “know” that a mistake was made, just isn’t fair. Otherwise any tip is up for debate, and can be called a “mistake” later and have to be given back. “I didn’t double-check what I gave you” is, IMO, no different from “I was drunk” or “I realized I didn’t have cab fare when I left the bar” or “that tip put me over my credit card balance and I didn’t realize it” or any other number of reasons you could give to get your money back. That’s not how it works; none of those things are within my power to control. I don’t get to assume you made a mistake if you tip very poorly, and ask you to correct it, so why should I have to assume you made a mistake if you tip very well, and offer to correct that for you? A tip is a totally discretionary amount of money, so ordinary rules about the exchange of money for goods don’t apply because there is no set price tag attached to service.

My $.02, anyway.

FWIW, the karma attached to giving the guy his money back is worth mentioning…but that’s a whole other issue. The guy’s right to get his money back is what we’re debating.

Audrey, you suck! :wink: But despite that…I think your post really says it all about the situation.

Audrey, thanks for the update! I think Jeff’s take on it is pretty darn good.

I would only argue against your thoughts via one point. There is, IMHO, a difference between rethinking the huge tip you decided to give someone, and not knowing it was a huge tip in the first place. It’s the difference between looking in your wallet and saying “Boy, I was a dope for tipping so high.” and “WTF happened to the twenty I had in here!”

That’s pretty uncool. Since no server ever makes any mistakes in life, it is only reasonable to assume that when a customer leaves an outrageous tip, it must have been completely intentional. And of course, if Jeff ever makes the mistake of miscounting his money, he will happily write off his loss as “experience”.

Very true, Cheesesteak. My problem is that there’s no way of verifying which one occurred; it would be easy for “Boy, I was a dope for tipping so high” to turn into “WTF happened to my twenty?” in order to get that money back. Who’s going to be able to tell the difference? Unless a credit card is involved, in which the amount is written out and signed, a cash tip could always be called “accidental” if it’s later regretted.

On a tangent…I remember reading a story about a waitress who got like a $3,000 tip from some guy who was drunk…and he tried to dispute it later, saying he didn’t really intend it, that it was “a joke,” etc…

But he’d signed it on his credit card, publicly, making a big deal out of it at the time, so…

He didn’t get it back.

Oh, and js_africanus, trust me, servers give out wrong change all the time, and yes, they have to chalk it up to experience because there’s no way for them to get it back.

Done it myself. There’s nothing like counting out all your money at the end of the night, and realizing you’re short $50 b/c you gave somebody waaaay too much change.

Did it suck? Yep. Did I get to chase down whoever got the gravy money and get it back from them?

Nope. (See, there’s no proof of it. Kind of like in Jeff’s case?)

So yeah, you could say I wrote it off as experience.

Well, I’ll be dipped.

Thanks, Hamlet, for the legal citations from Williston. I honestly had no earthly idea it was possible for someone to legally claim they gave more than they intended, and were therefore allowed to seek restitution.

Would this situation be covered under contract law? If so, Jeff clearly has no legal claim to the money, and I was wrong in my earlier assertions that he did.

Having said that – if the customer never did show up last night, as Audrey Levins indicated, the money should be Jeff’s, I think.

And I’m pleased to hear what Jeff’s reaction to the situation was.

I wonder if the customer is a reader of these boards and decided, after the ethical discussion, to just let Jeff have the 20 bucks :slight_smile:

Just so I understand you, the big determination is how much time was there between the mistake and the person finding out it was a mistake. 3 seconds is enough to allow him to get his money back, but 3 hours is too much? I don’t think the ethics of the situation boil down to simply the amount of time that passed. Sure, it is a factor, but it shouldn’t be the end-all-be-all determination.

Do you have any evidence that this wasn’t a complete mistake by the customer. I haven’t seen one iota of evidence that this guy was fucking around with Jeff. If he was, the legal principles would be different because it wouldn’t have been a mistake, as would my determination, but I’ve seen nothing to lead me to believe this is true.

I’m not sure if you mean this guy, who appears to be a complete choad, and did in fact, get out of the huge tip. Or do you mean this guy or this guy both of whom are now my, and anyone who has ever worked as a waiter, new heros.

Reminds me of a water polo player I once new: He declared that it was okay for him to slash other players with a bent up bottle cap because somebody had done it to him.

Hamlet and Cheesesteak, I agree - it’s clear that the high tip was a mistake. Problem is, if I’ve been reading Audrey correctly, the guy was trying to pin the blame for his mistake on the waiter. Not good, especially if I’m correct about the whole mess being caused by a practical joke gone sour. Naturally, I have no proof that’s the case but its a safe assumption IMO and I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that. Whatever his reason for being in such a hurry, if he wasn’t he probably could have avoided being in such a mess.

Too many Jeffs in this thread. :wink:

I’ll probably regret this, but…

A practical joke gone sour?

Jeff. What the fuck are you talking about?

Yes, this is exactly like that. I don’t know why I didn’t see the parallels before.

Have you got some sort of ill-concealed hatred for waistaff, or what?

That’s the impression I (and I think a few others) got. Perpaps my earlier post regarding the possible joke wasn’t clear. How’s this?

Customer thinks he put $20 in the folder and essentially said to the somewhat dim waiter, “The change is all for you.” There’s your joke, but what really happened is the customer didn’t notice it was two bills stuck together and was in a hurry to leave. He comes back later, fuming, and thinks the waiter turned the tables on him. Except he turned the tables on himself and either can’t or won’t admit that he was caught in his own joke.

Given the information presented by Audrey, this doesn’t seem too far-fetched.

See, this is why you should only tip waiters in small change.

Just get a whole bunch of quarters, and count them out on the table. Even if you accidentally leave more than you thought, you aren’t out much.

As has been said, the nature of tips, which have no set amounts, makes it dangerous to use larger denominations.

Or pay by credit card, giving the restaurant staff the choice if they want the tip or not.

We went to a restaurant a couple of weeks ago (Cowboy Cafe on Columbia Pike) and my SO ordered a house salad. Turns out they couldn’t make a proper house salad because they were out of a couple of ingredients but they didn’t bother to tell us or give her a chance to order something else. I included a low tip with my credit card payment but it wasn’t charged. Guess they weren’t kidding when they said they didn’t want our money.

To be clear, our food was charged but the tip wasn’t.