If more had that to come home to, wars was cease to exist. 
What a great pic of her.
Possibly worst Cecil article ever.
First, that insult was wayyyy out of line. Fighting ignorance is going to be more difficult if you can’t even wonder about things.
Second, his data does not really support his conclusion. Or it supports the conclusion that not ALL homosexuals have a preference in that direction. But that wasn’t the question, the question was why many do.
If anything, I would say that his data supports the assumption of the question. If butch women account for 15% of the lesbian population, that would be more than there are in the heterosexual female population.
I think most of us are ignorant on this matter, but yet just as curious as the reader as to why would a gay person seek out somebody that looks like the opposite sex. After reading Cecil’s column, evidently the percentage of gays doing this isn’t that high. He cited one study of lesbians that showed butch types are about 15%, and as he noted, if they pair off with femme women that would indeed put them in the minority of lesbian relationships.
I would have also suspected the butch types a bit higher, way much higher. Maybe I don’t recognize the femme couples as much, mistaking them as just friends instead. Out in public places, or with my occasional visits to sports bars, and also at the straight bars, when they have their pool leagues, a group from a known lesbian bar that comes in are mostly nearly all butch from what I’ve seen, mostly heavyset, nothing much about them was feminine, which surprises me with that one study Cecil shared, which shown 95% of lesbians actively didn’t seek out traits that were masculine.
Could we get some lesbians to go out and do some field research for us, and report back to Cecil?
I think the question author made an understandable error of observational selection: he or she sees the gays/lesbians that fit the stereotype, but doesn’t see the ones who don’t because they don’t. So they think that gays are as they see them. Reminds me of the person commenting about the “ugly American”; sitting in a cafe in Paris, knowing there are a dozen fellow Americans in his sight, but then one family walks by, acting the stereotype, and that’s all anyone notices or remembers. That is how stereotypes are reinforced.
Agreed. It was extremely rude.
My (VERY) limited personal experience: I’m a feminine lesbian, dating a (gorgeous!) feminine woman. A couple we know are also both feminine. A girl at my work is feminine and says she prefers her girls butch.
I haven’t regularly, read the columns since AOL. My bookmark takes me right to boards.straightdope.com. The only time I read them is if someone links to one for some reason. I’m not terribly interested in reading a “Straight Dope Classic” from 1988 and if reading a newer one makes me say “Hey, I’ve wondered about this too” only to make me feel like a jerk, I guess I’m not missing anything. There’s a whole internet out there, HowStuffWorks, Wikipedia, countless specialized forums, youtube videos, tutorials etc. Why would I go to an article that makes me feel like a shithead for asking, what I think is, an honest question.
So, I’ll ask again like I did in the beginning. Let the article stand on it’s own merits, but how about taking out the insults?
And have those columns ever really sunk so low as to call someone a ‘compete dumbshit’?
Did it print in the newspaper that way?
Count me as someone who, upon encountering questions such as that, wants to cringe. Then I think to myself “OK, this person does not have a wide experience of gay or lesbian friends, so this is coming from ignorance, not malice.” Nevertheless I still cringe inwardly.
The reason is that this kind of question tends to make gays and lesbians into “the other” or “them” as opposed to “us.” It assumes that gays and lesbians are so different from straight people that they don’t respond in as many different ways as straight people do. That gays and lesbians are weird and in a singular way. It feels objectifying and rather ugly.
Nevertheless, I think the “dumbshit” comment was, at best, lazy writing. As others have mentioned, it lacked the usual rapier-like wit that we have come to expect. It’s a schoolyard response.
For the record, folks, among the gay men that I know, most of them respond most deeply to personality before looks. So one more anecdote to throw into the pile.
Again, the questioner doesn’t assume that all homosexuals are attracted in that manner. Not even that most do. There is no assumption from the questioner that homosexual people don’t respond is as many different ways as straight people do. You and Cecil are seeing something that is not there in the question.
Cecil mentions that there are 15% of lesbians described as butch. Let’s say that there are 5% of heterosexual women that would be described as butch. (You can question this estimate I just made, but I don’t think you can dismiss it out of hand.) Then many lesbian couples would include one butch woman, compared to how many heterosexual couples would include one butch woman. Thus completely validating the assumption of the question.
The Straight Dope is not the message board.
It’s not unreasonable to ask about the references. Posting citations has fallen behind. We will work to get them updated. Until that point here are some used for this column.
Please review all of them and then you can post an update as to your opinion.
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Felmlee, Diane, David Orzechowicz, and Carmen Fortes. “Fairy tales: Attraction and stereotypes in same-gender relationships.” Sex Roles 62.3-4 (2010): 226-240.
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Smith, Christine A., Julie A. Konik, and Melanie V. Tuve. “In search of looks, status, or something else? Partner preferences among butch and femme lesbians and heterosexual men and women.” Sex Roles 64.9-10 (2011): 658-668.
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Rosario, Margaret, et al. “The coming-out process of young lesbian and bisexual women: Are there butch/femme differences in sexual identity development?.” Archives of Sexual Behavior 38.1 (2009): 34-49.
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Bailey, J. Michael, et al. “Butch, femme, or straight acting? Partner preferences of gay men and lesbians.” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 73.5 (1997): 960.
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Bassett, Jonathan, Sharon Pearcey, and James M. Dabbs Jr. “Jealousy and partner preference among butch and femme lesbians.” Psychology, Evolution & Gender 3.2 (2001): 155-165.
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Skidmore, W. Christopher, Joan AW Linsenmeier, and J. Michael Bailey. “Gender nonconformity and psychological distress in lesbians and gay men.” Archives of Sexual Behavior 35.6 (2006): 685-697.
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Welling, Lisa LM, et al. “Self-reported sexual desire in homosexual men and women predicts preferences for sexually dimorphic facial cues.” Archives of Sexual Behavior 42.5 (2013): 785-791.
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Blashill, Aaron J., and Kimberly K. Powlishta. “Gay stereotypes: The use of sexual orientation as a cue for gender-related attributes.” Sex Roles 61.11-12 (2009): 783-793.
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Sánchez, Francisco J., et al. “Reported effects of masculine ideals on gay men.” Psychology of Men & Masculinity 10.1 (2009): 73.
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Cohen, Adam B., and Ilana J. Tannenbaum. “Lesbian and bisexual women’s judgments of the attractiveness of different body types.” Journal of Sex Research 38.3 (2001): 226-232.
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Levitt, Heidi M., Elisabeth A. Gerrish, and Katherine R. Hiestand. “The misunderstood gender: A model of modern femme identity.” Sex Roles 48.3-4 (2003): 99-113.
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James, William H. “Biological and psychosocial determinants of male and female human sexual orientation.” Journal of Biosocial Science 37.05 (2005): 555-567.
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The Straight Dope: Was Pink Originally the Color for Boys and Blue for Girls? Was pink originally the color for boys and blue for girls? - The Straight Dope
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Glick, Peter, et al. “Defensive reactions to masculinity threat: More negative affect toward effeminate (but not masculine) gay men.” Sex Roles 57.1-2 (2007): 55-59.
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Carballo‐Diéguez, Alex, et al. “Looking for a tall, dark, macho man… sexual‐role behaviour variations in Latino gay and bisexual men.” Culture, Health & Sexuality 6.2 (2004): 159-171.
Thanks for the cites.
I’m not sure why people seem to think Cecil chose this question to start using language such as “complete dumbshit.” That was in the books 15 years ago, already a feature of the column’s style.
Seriously, if you’re not familiar with the column, how did you find the boards, and why did you join?
Here’s the column that led me to the AOL boards. The author managed to write it without calling me a complete dumbshit.
I keep seeing people say that the columns tend to be snarky, but has one over been this nasty. I’m insulted as a reader (that’s had that question myself) and I’d be annoyed with any newspaper that felt it was okay to print that.
Like I said earlier, I don’t read them that often and when I do, sure, there’s some joking, but I’ve never seen anything like that.
I agree - snark is fine and expected. Fun, even. It’s part of the schtick and what led me to SDMB. But downright rudeness and over-the-top jerkiness is a turn-off and I’d be disinclined to follow “Cecil” if I thought that all responses were likely to be that nasty.
Really? As big as the Dope is, you honestly think that most these folks got here through the column? I know I didn’t (I came via a link from Snopes) and I’ve been here for over a decade. Even more, I’d bet there’s whole swaths of members who have never even heard of “Cecil” himself.
Read the whole OP again. The questioner starts by saying “so many” and then the second question appears to me to be assuming that the described attractions are normal for gay men. The comments about lesbians then dial it back a bit. I will grant the possibility that I am over-sensitized to this kind of thing, seeing as how I heard so much of it in decades past from people who then revealed that their questions were not innocuous but had a very barbed point.
“Why do so many black men (fill in your own characteristic or activity)” is, I suspect, not a question that black men would welcome. When they don’t, I understand why.
It appears to me that the questioner hit a nerve. Just liike many others I have also noticed that many (of course not all) gay couples seem to be divided into a masculine and feminine. That means that half of them want someone that looks and acts like the opposite sex with different equipment.
So, the question is valid and undeserving of the kind of response that was written. Especially since this question was culled from hundreds of others for a response.
So, someone picked this particular question, and using their own agenda, decided to slam the questioner. This kind of targeted response is simply uncalled for.
I guess I can tell who is the absurd dumbshit in this particular exchange.
But the Straight Dope is supposed to be fighting ignorance since 1973, not taking offence since 1973. If someone asked how come so many of the best runners are black, I would prefer to read an answer to this question, not a harsh insult to the questioner, even if some people would take offence to it. If Cecil is too insulted to even consider the question rationally, I would prefer that he didn’t answer it, at least.
Then maybe the answerer should have taken a deep breath before they started typing and acted like a big girl or passed off the question to one of the other staff members.
At my work there’s been plenty of times where I get a voice mail with a question or a customer walks in and I say to someone “I can’t deal with this one or I’m going to yell at them, can you handle it for me”. I’m pretty good with customers, but if I’m ‘in a mood’ or there’s an issue that I know ‘hit’s a nerve’ I’ll send someone to do my dirty work. It’s better than losing a customer.