For a gentleman of a “certain age,” it is not independent women that cause unease, but loud, assertive, aggressive, vulgar women. A certain fraction of young female lawyers seem to fall into this pattern. Somehow it is a bit off-putting when you make a settlement offer and the alto voice from the other side of the table responds with “Oh, fuck that!” There is an appropriate response when this comes from a male, in fact the response is almost reflex. When these words come out of the mouth of a person who shares primary and secondary characteristics with your mother and the Blessed Virgin Mary the natural response on the part of a gentleman of a certain age is unease. The lousy thing about it is that the loud, assertive, aggressive and vulgar woman knows that she is making the G.O.A.C.A. uncomfortable and sometimes pushes the matter until the G.O.A.C.A. either withdraws from the field or responds in kind. In either event, the Independent Woman then gets to climb on here gender enhanced soap box and make speeches about men being threatened by I.W.s.
I am occasionally loud, though professionally I avoid it as I believe it indicates a lack of control. But I can be assertive when need be and, yes, aggressive if necessary as well. And while I avoid vulgarity in most aspects of my life except this Board, I respect a woman who exercises her right to be just as vulgar as a man might be under the same circumstances. Except, of course, when a man does it, he’s “strong.” It’s only “vulgar” when it comes out of a woman’s mouth.
If the GOACA is uncomfortable with vulgarity, he should make his discomfort known, he should either get a thicker skin or, if it’s egregious (like not just swearing, but swearing at you), make his objections known. If the GOACA is uncomfortable with vulgarity when it comes from a woman (because, gee, every woman must be like Mom or the BVM), then he should get over it.
Treat a female adversary as you would a male. If you would not normally “withdraw from the field” if it were a man, then stand your ground with a woman as well. If you’d give it to a guy with both barrels, because he deserves it, then give it to a woman as well. “Responding in kind” is as appropriate (or inappropriate) with a woman as with a man. And if the woman then pretends hurt that you failed to treat her as a delicate flower of femininity – shrug and tell her she can’t have it both ways. Because she can’t. If she wants to play the way she thinks the boys play, she has to be prepared to have the boys play as rough with her as they would with each other. And if she’s a woman worth her salt, she wouldn’t have it any other way.
Jodi, “young female lawyer” who privately heaps scorn on males “of a certain age” who think they can tell her how she ought to act, and who try to use her gender as an excuse for pulling their punches.
Note to Spavined – That is not directed at you at all, much less particularly. I have nothing but respect for you. But you touched a bit of a raw nerve with me.
It’s no treat to attempt to be successful in a profession where you are expected to be an effective advocate and to stand your ground and fight for your client, when you’re dealing with guys (and it’s mostly older men) who think you should be quiet and deferential and god forbid you be vulgar. “Quiet” and “deferential” don’t jibe well with “fight for your client.” So IMO it’s not most young female lawyers who want it both ways – it’s that some men we deal with want to be sure we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t – because if we’re appropriately “feminine” or “womanly” then we’re likely not great at our job (at least in the adversarial world of trial work), but if we’re great at our job (with the willingness and ability to fight that you need to be an effective trial lawyer), well, then we’re not sufficiently “feminine.” We’re “emasculating” or “pretending to be men.”
And it bugs the shit out of me. I am a woman. I do not become less of a woman if I look you directly in your manly eye and tell you that your offer is crap and that you cannot browbeat me into taking it. I am not less of a woman if I refuse to allow you to talk over me at a deposition when I’m trying to register an objection on the record, even if I have to raise my voice to be heard. I am not less of a woman when I refuse to allow you to browbeat my witness on the stand, and argue vociferously that you have no right to do it.
It’s the 21st century, and I’m still dealing with men who claim not to know how to treat me. For crissake: Treat me as an equal. Equal, not below you (as if I am incompetent). Equal, not above you (as if I’m not allowed to use profanity lest I sully my entire gender). Equal. Just like you would a man. Equal. It’s not that effing hard.
Oh crap, I forgot text.
I also did a line by line reply/flame to your post before I stumbled on:
It sounds like this is a fresh wound. In that case, let me just offer my sympathies. Life moves on and sometimes gets better. Besides, any flame I would have posted has already been done with more style by someone else… except this one:
You bought it? Maybe they’re just scared of the firepower!
p.s., independence is a human trait. Independence is a proper noun.
Gotta go with some of erislover’s sentiments here. There’s a social problem at my law school where many of the women don’t want to date anyone, or break off a relationship after a few months. (Admittedly, there’s other factors at work here…duh, law school.) There seems to be an underlying assumption that independence and intimacy are mutually exclusive; hence, most of the relationships don’t get very far.
The men have, like it or not, taken their business elsewhere (so to speak, no belittlement intended). It was almost funny when we had our barrister’s ball at the end of the year, and many of the women couldn’t understand why they weren’t being asked out…
Jodi, I totally dig the equality thing, but just to clarify: does it mean that men can’t treat women differently? Off the top of my head, I might use cuss words around other men, but I’m less inclined to do so around women. Which I think of as raising the standard…women tend to have a civilizing effect on me, and I’d hope that it’d be the same for most men.
…but what do I know, I haven’t gotten that big firm job yet…
I hope you take advantage of their lowered guard and shred them as they deserve.
Oh, and to the OP, you should ask my wife, who is doggedly pursuing her PhD in a scientific discipline I only partly understand, whether or not she’s strong and independent. :rolleyes:
You know, among my friends, I’ve found that men/boys aren’t intimidated by an independent woman, but rather are annoyed by women who can’t do a damn thing for themselves, who can’t make up their minds, and who never express an opinion of their own.
I’m a pretty independent woman. I can change a flat, work with a computer, do some basic car stuff like checking fluids and jump-starting, make a meal, clean, entertain myself, and take care of myself when I’m sick. I’m also reasonably intelligent, will open the door for myself, and take a rather equal attitude towards paying for meals (though, due to upbringing, I am likely to try to insist on paying). It’s only when I–or my friends–have become emotionally or physically needy for no real reason that we’ve had trouble with males.
Independent women are just that. Independent. Thus, not dependent on anyone. They don’t NEED anyone.
I wonder how well this would work in a bar…
Man: Hey doll.
Woman: I am an independent woman!
Man: AAAHHHHHHH!
or
Man: Hey, it’s dark. I should walk you home.
Woman: I’m an independent woman. I don’t need your help with anything.
Man: AAHHHHHHHH!
And why the fuck in this day and age to women feel they need to call themselves independent women? Was their a time in their life where they weren’t? They needed someone to wipe their asses?
I hate independent women who insist on ramming the fact the they’re independent at every possible moment.
And as for Destiny’s Child, m’dears, If you are going to claim to be so independent, why do you need your father around to fire members of the band who more talented than you? You’re not very independent when the success that enables you to buy your house, and your car, and the “Rock you’re rocking” was handed to you.
Truth, you went to the airport to pick up your hubby’s new squeeze and let her stay at your house. That doesn’t really speak well of your expressed self-confidence and independence.
The guy is a prick and a clod, but it wasn’t your strength and independence that turned him away. Other forces are at work there, I think.
From your posts, it seems you are a person who needs attention from others. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all. We all need somone else from time t time.
Having read the two threads that belladonna linked to, I think I can see that Truth is exploring independence as a new concept in her life. I’m not surprised that she’s overdoing it with the shouty capitals and all. It’s a shiny new thing, and she’s learning to play with it as part of getting over the shitfest that was her marriage.
Best of luck, Truth. I hope you settle into your independence, and that it becomes natural to you, so you don’t have to shout about it. That way, you should find it much easier to have mutually fulfilling and mutually respectful intimate relationships.
After taking the time to read the previous posts, I don’t see any independence here. A woman is independent when she goes with her husband to the airport to pick up his online girlfriend? A woman is independent when she falls for a guy online and spends most of her time wondering what his mindframe is?
We need the definition of independence here.
I don’t see it with the owner of this OP in any form, except that she supports her non-working husband.
A truly independent woman doesn’t need to claim her independence, it is a form, style and way of life. It does not include excluding the opposite sex from her life to support her independence.
I have been single for 10 years, minus 5 months, raised a son alone, and for the most part have enjoyed many relationships with the opposite sex, and I have yet to find one male that has had a problem with my being independent. Most appreciate the fact that they don’t have to spend their every waking moment catering to my whims.
Men are no more threatened by a woman’s independence than a woman is threatened by a man’s. It’s the attitude displayed here that’s the problem, nothing to do with independence.
I don’t see independence here, just a mild case of attitude. And just a tad of martyrdom at the alter of early 1970’s feminism.
But it’s a message board so there really isn’t enough to form a view. But as in life, we do form view on that which is presented to us. So I did.
Next up: ‘Men don’t respect single mothers’.
