Why are MEN intimidated by an Independent Woman

A lot of men like dating independant women. Clingy types creep us out, and only men who have their own issues with self-worth or control issues like the “whinny” types you talk about.

I like when I’m dating someone and they WANT to be around me 24-7, because if I’m into that person as well, that’s the way I feel. But there’s a big diference between WANTING to be with someone and NEEDING to be with them. I like it if I can spend every waking moment with a person I’m dating, but I also like like it when they can go off and do their own thing without me and not have their whole world fall apart (and vice versa).

Like many people have pointed out, there’s a big difference between “Independent” and “closed off/self-centered/disatatched/just plain bitchy”. Maybe a re-evaluation is in order.

Women with bitchy attitudes blame the world for disliking independent, assertive, women while lots if intelligent women go about their lives successfully. What the world (not only men) dislikes is bitches (of both sexes) with attitudes.

I’m not sure why anyone would want to get a gefilte fish jar open.

Are you on the rag or something? :smiley:
runs away very, very fast indeed :wink:

Yes, dear.
Hey, TwistofFate! Wait for me!

Fuck independant women!

As often as possible!

Well, I find Lara Flynn Boyle’s Practice character attractive, and I was rather, ahem, fond of Carey Lowell and Angie Harmon on Law & Order. A woman can be as independant as she wants, as long as she wears tight skirts.

But putting that aside, I agree with the op that wimpy women with “I am a doormat” stamped on their foreheads are icky and boring, as are codependent men who scare easily.

Independent women don’t need to be attention whores.

Context is all, my dear RES IPSA. Professionally, women absolutely should not be treated differently. IMO, every person you interact with on a professional level should be treated in an ungendered, professional manner. Does that mean you can’t “notice” a fellow lawyer is a woman? No. But ask yourself how often you bother to “notice” that a fellow lawyer is a man. When men deal with other men professionally, gender is a nonissue. It should be a nonissue when dealing with women professionally as well, because it doesn’t help women if you treat them differently in the work sphere. Saying that women “raise the tone” by inhibiting swearing, for example, is just another way of admitting you’re comfortable doing one thing with other men – and connecting with them or “bonding” with them on that level: hey, we’re guys, we’re comfortable enough to swear around each other – but you’re not comfortable doing that thing with women. In the working or professional sphere, this is another way to reinforce the male club and keep women out of it – a very minor way, but a way nonetheless, and you may not intend that result but that is the result. You can connect with the guys through the comfort of swearig, but I can’t connect that way with you, because you choose to inhibit yourself around me and change your behavior solely because of my gender. This is a disservice to me as a fellow professional because I can never interact with you on that level – because you won’t let me. You might say that it doesn’t matter, but sometimes it does – when the contract goes to the guy you’re most comfortable with, or when the referral goes to the guy who laughed uproariously at your hysterical off-color joke – you know: the one you’d never tell to a woman.

As a professional matter, if you’re not comfortable swearing, then you shouldn’t swear. If you are, then fine. But don’t use the gender of the people whose company you’re in to justify inhibiting your own behavior. Personally, though I can be quite profane in other contexts, I rarely swear in a work situation – because some people are offending by it. Once I recognize and respect that some people are offended by it, and therefore choose not to do it, I see no reason to make that decision a gender-based one.

In the social sphere, men and women treat each other differently (if not unequally) in a lot of ways, through social relationships and attractions. A man may place his hand on the small of my back to guide me through a crowd on a date – that’s okay, he’s subtlely connecting himself to me and indicating a desire to see to my welfare and comfort, which is totally appropriate in a social context of a date. It would not be appropriate for a professional colleague to do that, because all those subtle signals of connection, protection, attraction, whatever, are not the message you should want to convey to a strictly professional colleague.

I do not advocate a double standard. If I ask that men treat me equally in my professional world (and I do), then I can’t disapprove if one fails to hold the door for me, or doesn’t offer to tote my heavy boxes. Because if he wouldn’t do it for a guy, then I have no right to expect him to do it for me, and disapproving of his failure to do so would be hypocritical. But I can and do disapprove of men (and there are some) who seek to “punish” my expectation of equality by being far ruder to me, and far less helpful, than they would be if dealing with a man. But whatever. I can tote my own water. Just treat me as an equal; that’s all I ask.

Well, ok, I get that…

Although I don’t view swearing or crudeness as a “social circle” thing (although other men might). Admittedly, my potty mouth tends to run a little more when the guys are around, but I credit that more to atmosphere than a social barrier. (It’s like the old saying: if everyone around you is a smoker, you’ll only be used to dirty air.) Yeah, I’m more “comfortable” acting a certain way around other men–but I shouldn’t be. It’s a “connection,” so to speak, but not one to be proud of. (Cussing used to be a bad habit of mine, and when I’m stressed, I unfortunately still slip into the sailor talk.)

In other words, I think the presence of a woman is a good thing to the extent that it suddenly makes a man realize the inappropriateness of the behavior. Think of it this way: when the woman leaves the room, I’m less inclined to go back to swearing, as I was just reminded that what I was doing wasn’t positive or professional. In other words, I wouldn’t want you interacting with me like that. I wouldn’t want me interacting with me like that.

Now, if the boys at the office are only swearing when the woman’s not in the room, and go back as soon as you leave, I can see the exclusion you’re talking about.

I’ve had many friends, both male and female in my life. I noticed guys tend to bitch about women who don’t like “nice guys”.

I’ve also noticed women who bitch about men who don’t like “independent women”.

My theory is that these are flip sides of the same coin. It is easier to blame others instead of facing the fact that you are doing something that the opposite sex finds unattractive.

I think you hit it right on the head there–it’s not the independence or the niceness that scares the opposite gender away…it’s the desperation that those who are inclined to bitch about such things are feeling.

But, RES, the problem is that, consciously or unconsciously, a man is probably not going to appreciate a woman for pointing out to him (whether she meant to or not) that he is acting inappropriately. And that discomfort may come back around – again, perhaps purely subconsciously – when it’s time to hand out the professional goodies, like contracts or clients or assignments: “Joe’s our new client, but he has a mouth like a septic tank, so I’d better not give his account to Jane, because he wouldn’t want to swear around a lady, and since she’s a lady, she probably wouldn’t appreciate his swearing anyway . . . .”

So you swear like a sailor around the boys, and then the mere presence of a woman makes you realize you shouldn’t do that? What’s up with that? Why does it take a woman breathing the same air as you to make you realize you’re acting inappropriately – if, indeed, you believe you are? And even if you thank her for bringing that to her attention – something she apparently can’t help but do, because of her gender – do you really think other men feel as thankful to have their inappropriate behavior pointed up? (Again, something she isn’t even doing, but apparently in your world cannot avoid doing, simply by existing.) Do you think they feel as comfortable around someone with whom they have to censor their usual means of discourse, in order to avoid something they presume will offend?

And the thing is, they don’t presume it will offend because swearing is vulgar or profane – they assume it will offend because she is a woman. Don’t you see what a disservice this is to her? It may be a “good thing” to you, because it reminds you to behave yourself as you apparently believe you ought, but believe me, it’s almost never a good thing for her. Please try not to act differently around your female colleagues than you do your male colleagues – it almost never benefits the women. If you feel you cannot swear around one or the other group, then decide not to swear in front of either of them.

The swearing thing is actually a very good example of the bind women continue to find themselves in. As a woman, I cannot join in and swear like a truckdriver, even if I wanted to, because that is still considered an inappropriate thing for a woman to do – it will mark me instantly, in the eyes of some men (IMO, a lot of men) as “coarse,” “vulgar,” and “unfeminine.” Of course, these same men don’t find it coarse coming from a man’s throat, only from a woman’s. So a woman can’t be one of the group, because if she even tries to do so, by jumping on the fuckety-fuck-fuck wagon herself, she only sets herself even further off from the men. In other words, we have this club, you can’t come in, and if you even try to come in, then we’ll think less of you. It’s surpassingly frustrating.

I don’t care if people swear or not. I generally don’t (believe it or not). But don’t forbear to swear around me “because I’m a woman,” at least not in the professional sphere. Any action by you that has the effect of setting me apart from the men professionally – whether you are well-intentioned or not – is not going to help me. So please don’t do it.

The term independent woman itself doesn’t really leave room for the guy. I think “non-dependent” would be a better description, which allows for attachment.

Personally, I would never attach myself to a woman who couldn’t get along just fine without me. I do have friends who married women who if they were men would have been described as “without prospects”, and in every case it ended badly.

Sometimes it takes a few generations for attitudes to shift. Here is a good song about a guy who wants a non-dependent woman, though. Its Sacto-rock, which is hard to describe, but their music is making it into lots of movie/commercial soundtracks nowadays.
Band:Cake
Album: Comfort Eagle
Song: Short Skirt, Long Jacket

Psst! that song is about the economy.

link

So, um, eris and Giraffe

How YOU doin’?

:wink:

BTW - I don’t do bugs. Ick. That’s what roommate is for. (that was, in fact, part of the conversation we had before deciding to share an apartment. SC: “Can you kill bugs?” Roomie: “Yeeesssss…”

I’ve always been independent, (except the math stuff, because me and numbers are ships sinking in the night and I am not embarrassed of this in the least.) because, being raised by a widowed mother who’s own personal motto is, " That’s a man’s job" or " Girls don’t do that" I would watch whatever it was that needed to be attended to *never ever get done * by any of my three older brothers. (who are mechanically retarded.) and I would end up doing it.

I have learned the basics to alot of things. * It’s just common sense.* Y’know, survival stuff. Can’t rely on the Mr. to do all of this because *one day he will drop dead * ( It’s statiscally proven, boys.) and I’m (you/eveyrone) going to have to know how to do these things or *I/you/everybody will get screwed * by some tradesman in the non-biblical sense.

I have witnessed too many times women who have become widows who are fucking clueless on how to do things (whether menial like yard work) or more complex ( buying a house/car) and are just sooooooooooo helpless. One woman I worked with who was about 45 had her husband drop dead who did not know how to pay a bill, gas her car, (this just killed me) *Load the dishwasher *. (She was working her first job ever for ‘fun’ when he died.) It’s one thing to pamper someone, it is another thing entirely to make someone entirely dependant on you. It 's just sick.

In conclusion to this jabberfest I leave you with a Shirley-ism:

*In life there are sheep, shepards and sheepdogs. Most are the first, very few are the middle. Strive to be the latter. They are the most respected, help the shepards and know how to get the flock outta here :smiley: *

Shirley I knew a woman who didn’t know how to write out a check 'cause hubby always did it. (she also didn’t drive, mow the lawn, fix things that broke etc.)

Is there still a lot of that going on? (I’m sure it happens, but I wonder about frequency.)
I worked at an engineering/manufacturing firm for 19 years as both an employee and as a contractor. The place had a seriously warped “male” culture in which women often had to prove themselves to be accepted. Still, a guy who was free with the foul language was quite likely to be derided, scorned, or otherwise treated with contempt. On the other hand, as long as she did not try to “out cuss” the “boys,” I don’t remember ever hearing comments regarding the inappropriateness of a woman’s language. The two women who did draw remarks on their language were generally compared to the few guys who were similarly considered to be outside the bounds of propriety rather than being considered “unladylike.” Most people, male and female, stayed inside the bounds and an occasional expletive on hearing really bad news or in the heat of a discussion never drew comment from or toward either group. (I have witnessed guys being told to moderate their language–not that it was really common. I have never encountered a situation where a woman was similarly admonished.)

That’s what I meant to say. :smack:

SisterCoyote: we allowed to wink in the pit? :wink: I don’t kill spiders, though. They’re good guys.