Only men should swear?
Hoo, boy. I’m in BIG trouble.
Jodi, in your opinion does this apply across the board on all workplace behaviors? Reasonable Hypothetical: Workplace X has a large number of male employees 90% of which are fans of the local professional sports teams. Is it unreasonable for these men to discuss sports in front of the 1 or 2 female coworkers (who in this scenario have no interest in sports)? IMHO there is indeed a somewhat exclusionary effect on the women in this case however IMHO it’s relatively innocent and is without malice. The genders are different and, in general, that will be reflected in the common experience and interests of both men and women. I think it would be unreasonable to limit ones workplace conversation to topics that tend to be equally interesting to both genders.
Grim
Eris - flirting happens everywhere around here.
And I don’t kill spiders, either. Although I was completely freaked out by the one that crawled out of my shorts…
…while I was wearing them. :eek:
It’s hard to say. Because part of the problem is that men, even good-hearted and well-meaning men like RES and SPAVINED, who still ascribe to the idea that girls shouldn’t swear or like to swear, or girls are all like Mom or the BVM, don’t state those opinions right out. Instead they privately think “whoa, that chick’s a little coarse,” and who knows what the future implications are of that privately held opinion? The guy disapproves of the woman, however mildly, when in the same situation, he wouldn’t disapprove of a man. Consciously or not, a double standard is still often applied and, as I said, it almost never will benefit the women.
But that double standard absolutely still exists: Given the same aggressive behavior, a man is “strong,” but a woman is “bitchy.” Given the decision to work late hours instead of going home to a family, a man is “dedicated,” but a woman is “a lousy mother.” Given the projection of a degree of arrogance, a man is “confident,” but a woman is “stuck-up.” I’m not saying sexism is some mountain I’m toiling up, but I don’t know a single professional woman who would tell you it doesn’t still exist, and doesn’t present at least the occasional bump in the road.
GRIM_BEAKER –
If you know that your coworkers have no interest in sports, what does their gender have to do with it? I assume you don’t generally have protracted discussions with people of either sex on subjects that you know bore them, right? Whether it is “unreasonable” to discuss sports in a group, knowing that a small percentage of the group doesn’t follow sports, depends on whether you think politeness requires that a conversation include every person in a given group. And I can’t answer that for you, but of course it has nothing to do with gender.
I think that’s a dangerous assumption to make in this day and age. Why would you assume that people must hold interests or experiences in common based on gender? Because guys don’t like to cook? Because girls don’t like baseball?
Do you generally pick topics based on the gender of your audience? Why? Why not just talk about something that interests you, or that you know interests the person to whom you’re speaking? Or, if you don’t know, ask them: “Do you follow baseball?” If no, well there you go. Again, why is this in your mind gender-based?
And Go Mariners.
I perceive your stance to be: “By behaving differently around women you are marginalizing them by denying them the capability of bonding with you in the same way you would with men”. My stance isn’t that there aren’t men who like quilting or women who like truck pulls. Rather that:
- There is a tendency for there to be more men who are interested in certain topics then women and vice versa.
- Regardless of the fact that interests are unique from person to person the practical effect can be that in a given situation all men/women may share a given interest which the other gender in this situation does not.
Let me use an example from my last workplace. I worked as a computer programmer with a small staff of other computer programmers. The number of programmers fluctuated from as low as 10 to as many as 25. All of the male programmers and none of the female programmers (the most female programmers we ever had was 2) while I worked there were interested in computer games. Even though I’m sure there are women who like computer games the fact of the matter is that the majority of computer gamers are men and in this case all of the computer gamers were men. If we discussed computer games at work (and we did) are we guilty of marginalizing the two women programmers because they didn’t share that interest? I guess this is a separate issue because we weren’t behaving differently around them because they’re women even though the effect is the same (women being denied a bonding opportunity that is in practice being offered to only other men in that particular workplace). What are your thoughts?
Grim
Jodi, before we get too far into the war between men and women (copyright, James Thurber), let me tell you that loud, assertive, aggressive vulgar men bother gentlemen of a certain age just as much as the female counterpart. The problem is that anyone who has spent any time in a locker room or a barracks knows how to respond to the LAAV man. You shout back, you tell him to stick it, you pound on the table, if you are big enough you stand up and speak directly into the jerk’s nose at close range (their organ of hearing is in their nose) and generally go into an Alpha Wolf act. Those are instinctive and reflexive reaction learned when you learned to relieve your self while standing. Those behaviors are, to the thinking of a GOACA not appropriate when dealing with the female counterpart. The mantra that women and men should be treated the same is fine in the abstract but it just does not come with any grace and conviction in reality. Some of us cannot bring our selves to beat on our chest and let lose with the Tarzan yell when confronted with an obstreperous woman where, confronted with a man in the same situation, there would be lots of growling and baring of canine teeth.
I suppose it’s all my mother’s fault. My father taught me how to pee and fight and throw a baseball, but my mother never taught me how to deal with women. Mrs. Gelding likes it that way.
;)I find independent women extraordinarily attractive.
They, however, are not interested in puny geeky weirdos like me.
"… "
THERE ARE THREE DOTS!!
Just wanted to say that. 
Yes, but you aren’t marginalizing them because they are women. If they think that they should or should not like something because of their gender then that is their fault.
See, now you’re putting words in my mouth, or in this case, thoughts in my brain…
It’s not that I think women shouldn’t swear…it’s that I think people shouldn’t swear. I don’t recall ever thinking “wow, that girl’s a little coarse” in the presence of female foul language. I’m a little upset that you would presume to state my private thoughts.
The reason my mouth tends to relax is this: I grew up in a blue-collar area where foul language was common. That’s all. It’s a hard habit to break. Now that I’m in a more professional environment, I’ve managed to both consciously and unconsciously clean up my language a lot. But I don’t like it when I slip back into old habits. That’s all.
So let me clarify our respective positions as I see them: you think women should be able to swear with the guys; I don’t think either should be doing so. I think I understand your position: the professional world is a competitive one, and being able to “click” with the people in power will help you get ahead. Fine. It sucks that the workplace has come to this. It sucks that asking people, men or women, to behave with a little civility, will get you passed over and disliked. I can only hope that wherever I end up next year, that kind of treatment will be at a minimal, and that if it IS a rough environment, that I can hold onto my morals.
If this helps: I do try to point out to the guys that I don’t like to hear swearing from them either, and given your frustration, I’m sorry I didn’t mention it earlier. Does that help? That’s equal treatment: preferring that neither men nor women have a potty mouth. And if it helps, your comments have made me realize that my language needs a little work, and I thank you for it. If I haven’t, as you assume, disapproved of a man where I would a woman, then I should probably start.
But please, don’t lump me in with the sexist-machismo unsavory types you’ve worked with, or presume to say that I’m secretly thinking sexist thoughts, or that I’m proud of them if I am. This is only the second time I can recall that we’ve directly posted to each other; beyond that, you barely know me. I’m really sad that you would do that.
Did you manage to open the jar of gefilte fish yet, or would you like to borrow my jar wrench?
I’m scared, because apparently there is only one independent woman.
the only people I dont swear in front of are clients and my parents. Anyone else, and I could use “fuck” several times to describe a new born puppy.
Me, too, Twisty. “Cute as fuck, and his little ears are so fucking soft” (Before Tinuviel gets jealous, let me clarify - I’m talking about the puppy ;))
Tansu, share my ciggies, share my men… 
only if you ask nicely though! 
Anyways talking of puppies, I’m just gonna hijack this and say that one of the dogs in my local has just had 5 puppies! w00t!
Jack Russel puppies are so cute!
you sound like a total bitch. maybe you should look into that before blaming the entire other sex.
Ooo, I want a ride on the fuckety-fuck-fuck wagon!
p.s. Jodi, I’m with you . . . half of “gentlemanly” behaviour is nothing more than an impediment to progress, and the other half is just common sense politeness and kindness which should be practiced by both genders, without considering the gender of the recipient.
Beware of all generalizations, including this one…
or
All generalizations are nonsense, including this one…
or something like that…
Ennyhoo…
I had the misfortune to be associated with two “Independent” women in past years. Both were wonderful ladies and I had (I thought) terrific relationships with both of them. They were intelligent, outgoing, talented, forthright, strong…you name it. (And BTW, very sexy). I could support them when they wanted it (emotionally and otherwise) and cheer them on when they didn’t want support.
The first one dumped me (maybe not the proper phrase for the complicated dynamics going on then, but…) because I wasn’t “strong enough”. The second one dumped me after I sunk basically my life savings into helping her open her business (tip: ALWAYS GET RECEIPTS) …because I wasn’t “strong enough”.
WARNING: HUGE GENERALIZATION TO FOLLOW!!!
It seems to me that many ladies who complain about not being treated as an “Independent Woman” (btw, a phrase that is notoriously slippery to define) only complain when they don’t get their own way. When things are going great for them, then golly gee whiz, everything’s right with the world. When things go against their wishes, it’s not so much that, hey, you just can’t do things that way, instead it’s more that Men can’t handle an Independent Woman.
To use the current example of cursing, I don’t like to hear women (and men) curse. I try not to curse, either, and my beloved gets to charge me a quarter every time she catches me. But she just retired from the Air Force after 20 years and if the situation warrants, can make a truck driver cringe when she lets loose. But the fact that I don’t like her to curse HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME BEING INTIMIDATED BY HER INDEPENDENCE!!! It’s simply that I don’t like her cursing!!!
The two aren’t linked, in other words.
And the above example has nothing to do with the situation that there ARE men who are intimidated, etc etc etc etc…sigh…
I would think men would love an independant woman.
“homey, you jsut sit here watching the game, I’ll go kill this bug, and fix the car while I’m at it.”
“Great!”