Woo hoo! My first flirt! Well, on the receiving end, anyway. I flirt like crazy with other posters, but no one ever responds. Perhaps I should post flirtatious messages and not just wink at the monitor while stroking my nipple. “I’m dead sexy!”, I shout. Yet no one ever responds. Anyway, on to the flirting.
[sub]Brain: OK, now. Let’s take it easy – we want to handle this one with style and dignity[/sub]
SisterCoyote, I am, um, doin’ well. And yourself?
[sub]Brain: Slam dunk![/sub]
Doh! I almost forgot:
[sub]Brain: Stupid stupid stupid!![/sub]
Wow! Okay. ::cracks knuckles, get ready for some serious typing::
GRIM –
I wouldn’t say I perceive the problem as “behaving differently” around them so much as it is "treating them differently, but I know that’s a fine line and maybe in this case a distinction without a difference.
But that has nothing to do with gender, right? The gender disparity is totally incidental to the (ungendered) interests of the people in the group. This is the difference between: (1) talking to men about golf because you know they golf, and not talking to a woman about golf because you know she doesn’t and (2) talking to men about golf because they’re men and you assume they are or might like golf, and not talking to a woman about golf because she’s a woman and you assume because of that she doesn’t like golf. Then, when you get the new client and you’re assigning his work, you might think “The client likes golf, Joe likes golf, I’ll give him to Joe.” And you’ll never know that Jane likes golf too, and could have had that interest in common with the client just as Joe does. But you don’t know of her interest in golf, because you never talked about golf around her, because she’s a woman and you assume she doesn’t golf. Do you see the difference between that situation and your situation at work? Because they are very different.
SPAVINED –
I’m sorry you don’t find equality “graceful.” On some level, it’s not. There is a lot to be said for the courtliness and “grace” of a woman who demurely allows herself to be handed out of a car, or a man who gallantly buys her flowers. But those sort of behaviors are simply not appropiate in a professional sphere. The problem is that unequal treatment in the work place almost never produces positive results for women. And so if a man really] wants to do the graceful thing for women-kind in that arena, he should avoid it. If you can’t do so “convincingly,” please at least do your best to pretend. The biggest problem I have with men who claim to be unable to sock a woman in the (metaphorical only) chops when she deserves it, is that most of them (not you, I don’t know about you) do not take the blame for that inhibition. No, they blame the woman for running roughshod over them (so they see it) while their hands are tied (so they see it). And they refuse to recognize that she didn’t tie their hands; they did.
Well then, if she takes advantage of your inability to meet her as an equal, I hope you will at least have the grace to not resent it. After all, it’s not her fault you can’t bring yourself to respond to her as an equal – i.e., as you would with a man.
I know you meant this humorously, but I wonder if you see how revealing it is? Why should your mother be responsible for “teaching you how to deal with women,” as if that’s some big secret? And why do you imply that only a woman could teach you how to deal with women? Ah, they’re so mysterious and inscrutable! My mother never taught me to deal with women either, nor did my father teach me how to deal with men. They both just taught me to take people as I found them, and to do the best I can with people in whatever the given situation is. I fail to see why that must be a gendered exercise. Don’t get me wrong – I love GOACA like you; my father is a prime example of one. But I will do my best to drag the whole lot of you kicking and screaming into the 21st century or, barring that, to show you that, if you choose to remain in a “kindler, gentler time,” that’s your decision and your fault, no the fault of women.
RES –
No I’m not. I never intended my statements about men generally (or, rather, some few men generally) to be taken as applying to you personally. In fact, I don’t think they do.
That was not my intention. The generalization actually applies to only a very few men, none of whom, so far as I know, is you. I am not trying to paint you as some sexist oinker; I don’t think you are.
With respect, you’re missing the point. Yes, I think women should be allowed to swear – if swearing is the norm. I also prefer an atmosphere where swearing is not the norm, and I have no problem with a person of either gender attempting to raise the tone (though swearing to me doesn’t usually have moral implications). The problem I had with your position was that you unconsciously feel comfortable with men – swearing your head off, even though you know you shouldn’t, you naughty boy – but if a woman steps in the room – whoops! It reminds you not to swear. This is in your case a good thing, because you yourself don’t like it when you swear.
But a lot of guys who reacted the same way under the same circumstances for the same reason – the presence of a woman – might not feel so thankful. Rather, they would have left the realm where you can “be yourself” (and swear) to act a little artificially, censoring their language, because of the woman. They do not allow themselves to feel or act 100% comfortable with the woman – because they think it would be inappropriate if they did. Who loses there? The woman. She’s on the other side of that door, and it’s the men – with the very best of intentions – who put her there.
Then my work here is done. 
Seriously, I never thought for a second that you were one of the very few men who, trying to be “gentlemen” and help women (or at least behave well around them), do not see that this behavior may in some cases actually hurt women. And they don’t intend that! They love women. They do – they wouldn’t care enough to act like gentlemen if they didn’t.
So it’s a delicate problem. I don’t want to act like I don’t appreciate gender-based courtesies in the social realm. And I don’t want to act like I expect or demand that you (generic you) swear like a sailor or scratch yourself because that’s what you (wrongly) think I expect. And when the deference and self-censoring is done with the best of intentions, I don’t want to act ungrateful, or unaware of that, or like a harridan who doesn’t see that some effort is being made on her behalf. I see that. I appreciate it, in the abstract, as a well-meant thing. But just . . . don’t do it. Just don’t. Please. Attempt to see professional colleagues as just that – fellow professionals. And to the extent you can, leave their genders out of it.
But please, don’t lump me in with the sexist-machismo unsavory types you’ve worked with, or presume to say that I’m secretly thinking sexist thoughts, or that I’m proud of them if I am. This is only the second time I can recall that we’ve directly posted to each other; beyond that, you barely know me. I’m really sad that you would do that.
And that’s your problem right there. You’ve got to change. You must become more of what men want. Let me tell you what men want. We want a woman who will listen to us unequivocally, in an unquestioning manner and with utmost respect for every single movement that we do. You have to do more mundane things, like iron the clothes better and wash up the dishes with finer products. Without this, how do you expect to be a proper woman? A wife? A mother? Listen to me, you must think more like you are my slave (well, not legally but emotionally). It’s kind of like selling your soul to a really nice guy. Try and do that kind of stuff - like kissing the floor after I’ve walked on it etc. It sound all good.
Yes it is. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you can find help.
And that’s why you have to become more needy. We love neediness, it makes us feel big. That you can’t live without us. That we are your every whim. That the wind blows melodiously every time we are there (no flatulance-based jokes here please).
No we won’t. Let me tell you that is nonsense.
Yes you can. Make yourself. It’s easy. Try and use glue.
Yeah, they’re saying that with they’re boyfriends. Nah-nah-na- nah-nah…
No you can’t. Don’t listen to her folks!
Independance or Re-independance? You decide…
I won’t rely on a man for everything- my nature is pretty independent. However, I recognize the fact that I do need help every once in awhile, and that men do sometimes like to feel needed and appreciated (don’t we?). So I’ll ask them to show me how to do something instead. That way, they can feel appreciated, while I’m not compromising my independent nature.
:::hugs Jodi:::::
Whew. And here I was paranoid I’d find a “Fuck you, Res” pit rant for me. Well, at least our respective positions are all cleared up now.
…I gotta get back to studying for this gosh-diddly-darned bar exam, doggoneit.
WOW! That’s BEAUTIFUL!
Thanks, RES. Hugs in the Pit? We’re going to get our Pitizenship revoked. :o
[sub]:: sniff :: I love you, man[/sub]