Yes it was frightening. They also want to get rid of the Department of Education.
And I can imagine disbanding NOAA. The amount of REAL data they provide and the services they provide the entire world are priceless.
“Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.”
First thought when reading OP, “Well what’s the alternative?” I have to agree with others that have stated they’ve not seen anything close to that here on the board. As a matter of fact it seems the most common refrain is, “no Biden was not my first choice and I think he’s too old, too conservative for a Democrat, etc… but he’s still a million miles away from Trump and at least we’ll still have a democracy after he’s done.”
Also, I’d like to bring more attention to the @HMS_Irruncible post above. I think that perfectly pegs the general vibe of this thread and why it’s rankled people. The op is built on a flawed and unsupported basis. And in addition it seems to be another attempt to normalize trumpism. “It doesn’t matter if Biden wins, fascism is inevitable.” That’s the general thrust of the OP.
Why do you believe we had a transfer of power in the last Presidential election? Was it:
a. The fascist Trump lost the election and is no longer in power, or
b. Trump actually wasn’t a fascist, so that doesn’t count.
Bonus question: if voting doesn’t change anything, why are the right-wingers trying so hard to prevent people from doing it?
Answer: for exactly the same reason leftists are persuading people that voting doesn’t matter: when everyone votes, it demonstrates that the people want a liberal democracy that supports moderate but definite social progress. The extreme right hates progress as a concept, the extreme left hates progress that isn’t on their terms. Just ask one, it takes no effort at all to get either the Bernie types or the Limbaugh types to launch into a tirade about how much they hate liberals.
I don’t “hate” liberals. I just wish Democrats would do more to address voter suppression, gerrymandering, and outright cheating by Republicans.
Do you believe that voting in a free and fair election makes a difference or don’t you? Pick a lane and stick with it.
I do. It’s just that voting is the bare minimum of participating in and preserving democracy.
Who do you think disagrees with you here?
And to be clear, you agree that doing the bare minimum is required, yes?
And if it is required, then everyone should be encouraged to do so, yes?
With that being the case, you must certainly agree that it’s clearly irresponsible to post cynical defeatist pablum that suggests voting won’t stop fascism. Or are you “raising awareness” or “asking questions” here? What are you actually doing?
I’m not raising awareness or asking questions. I just find it hard to be optimistic for this country’s future when we’re just one election away from fascism.
The way I look at it is this…
Think of all the possible outcomes for the next 10-20 years of the US political system. There are indeed a bunch of those outcomes where Trump or someone like him successfully abolishes effective democracy and sets himself up as fascist dictator, that is pretty much undeniable, we’ll call all those outcome A. But then there a bunch of other outcomes where Democracy survives and no one, Trump or anyone else, becomes fascist dictator, we’ll call those outcome B.
We don’t get to choose A or B directly we do however get to choose if Trump wins the 2024 (individually in a small way but we choose nonetheless). But the key point is Trump winning in November makes outcome A much more likely and outcome B less likely. Of all the possible outcomes the ones that end in fascism are much more likely if Trump wins than if he loses. Additionally if he loses very badly, in a way that makes the rest of the GOP think that backing MAGA is not the best thing for their personal interests, outcome A becomes less likely still. We can argue about the relative chances of outcome A and B in the various situations but this is undeniable: Trump winning makes option A more likely, losing makes it less likely.
Is this a shitty situation? Do I wish the best case scenario was not ‘make fascism less likely’? Of course. But at the end of the day the thing we can control (not a whole bunch but we can control it in a very small way) is making sure Trump isn’t elected and our fascist future is less likely. And I gonna celebrate like hell if we succeed in doing that.
You don’t need NOAA. It’s been proven that all you need to track a hurricane path is a map, a sharpie and the brilliant mind of Dear Leader.
I don’t think defeating Trump defeats fascism just as killing Osama bin Laden did not defeat terrorism. There have been far fewer hijackings since 9/11 and one simple reason for that is because the cockpit door is closed during the flight. There’s more security on the ground and in the air. There are lists of people who are not allowed to get on a flight and if a baby happens to share a name with a person on that list, too bad, the answer is still no. Various law enforcement agencies now share data instead of hoarding it. There have probably been a lot of behind-the-scenes changes as well, the end result of which is that it is a lot harder for someone with ill intent to get on an airplane. It is not to say that it is impossible and there have certainly been notable incidents. But there hasn’t been another 9/11. Is the price eternal vigilance? Well yes, of course.
In a similar manner, what Trump can illustrate for us is where the vulnerabilities are. For example, it is astounding to me (a Canadian observer) how much the power of the executive in the US rests on norms rather than actual rules. The system has a lot of gentleman’s agreements built in and no one ever seemed to contemplate an individual who could disregard those agreements and use party support as cover. There’s also the fuzzy question of whether or not a POTUS can even be charged with a crime. If the answer to that question was that being POTUS was not any kind of immunity to criminal charges, Trump probably wouldn’t be running. Well, he would be running but not in the same way. You’ve even got a situation where there is constitutional law saying “insurrectionists need not apply” but due to some absurd rules lawyering Trump manages to not be excluded despite clearly being an insurrectionist. And then there is gerrymandering where one particular party can shitbag the whole voting process by drawing the maps in a particular way. There’s the weird institutionalized racism around voter ID, geared towards excluding certain kinds of people who are assumed to be Democrats. Et cetera.
The good news is these are problems that can be solved. Clarify the rules and patch up the holes. You still have to remain vigilant because others will come along seeking to exploit this seething anger/resentment/disillusionment among the population. And it’s pretty much guaranteed that the next wannabe dictator will be a lot smarter than Trump. But as with 9/11, the US can start by just closing the cockpit doors and making incremental improvements from there.
Exactly. I’m under no illusions that it would mean anything more than delaying things for another 4 years. But at this point that’s better than nothing. It gives us another 4 years to come up with a new candidate and new strategies to stop things. With any luck, it might even mean SCOTUS swinging a little to the left. But a final victory? No, I don’t think that’s in the cards no matter how things turn out this November.
Haven’t we always been one election away from fascism?
What do you think Republicans should be doing?
None of those nations – in fact, not all of them combined – have nearly the economic or military influence the US has. A United States that’s outright fascist makes WWIII exponentially more likely.
IOW, a Trump victory could very well be the end of the (civilized, technologically advanced) world.
Not letting Republicans only allow one ballot dropbox per county would be a nice start.
Have we? That seems extreme? I feel like the only other serious threat of fascism in our history was Huey Long. And that was also in a time of fascism gaining power in many countries around the world.
For all of its flaws, the system has worked for that.
Not that you asked me but imo no. While there has been a steady decline in Republican commitment to democracy, it has only really reached a breaking point. I always used to say there was a danger in calling the right fascist non-stop because if they ever went fascist nobody would pay attention. E.g., in Canada, Harper was routinely called a fascist.
Obviously nobody can predict the future, and so it is impossible to say if definitely 100% the USA goes fascist if Trump wins in 2024… but it is scarily possible. Project 2025 should be terrifying to anybody that loves a free and democratic USA.
You seem content to blame the victims, and not the perpetrators.