Why attack a Canadian school for a free Palestine?

Great Debates
1

Last night in Montreal a Jewish elementary school library was fire bombed. Globe&Mail 04/06/2004

It made we wonder * why is Palestinian terror pan national?* Attacks on Israelis are at least understandable, in that the Israeli government directly impacts inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank. But I fail to see how exporting terror to Jews in Canada or elsewhere can be considered legitimate.
Does this attack justify itself through the belief in a world wide conspiracy of Jews that requires a pan national response?

2

I think you’re basing your puzzlement on the false premises that 1) the terrorists are basically rational or indeed sane 2) that their perverted logic has any deep philosophical underpinning 3) that their terrorism could ever be considered legitimate. Firebombing Jews in Montreal as revenge for perceived wrongdoings by Israelis are not and will never be legitimate. Further it is counterproductive to their cause and thus irrational or at best stupid. And, I strongly suspect, rest on nothing deeper than (Israel = Jews) + (Muhammad hated Jews) => 3) Kill Jews.

3

No they seem rational and hardly insane, unless being filled with hate constitutes insane.

No they seem to have a worldview that hinges on a global Jewish entity attempting to suppress some subset of the Arabs. My question is why? Which particular incident convinces them (and in this case convinces Canadian residents) that Jews in other nations are in anyway legitimate targets for the Palestinian struggle? At least in Europe there was a history of religious Jew hating that could warp into anti-Semitism’s idea of a vast international Jewish conspiracy. Where is that in the Arab/Israeli conflict?

4

Muhammed hated jews? From what do you draw that conclusion?
Whoever perpetrated this attack is obviously loopy. I suspect this “group” could be a single lone nutjob filled with conpspiracy theories and persecution complexes.

5

From their own mouth. Apparently they point, among other things, to these pieces of rubbish purportedly from the mouth of Mohammed:

“The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him “

“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends”

“Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued”

A Danish branch of a Moslem group passed out leaflets calling for the murder of Jews at an open air Moslem prayer last year. Something like “And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out…” supposedly taken from the Koran.

Oh I personally have no doubt Islam can be read in ways that does preach hatred for Jews or other religions (and am not accusing any single Moslem of holding such views – neither have I any idea how widespread they are), however there is no doubt that certain Moslem elements preach and believe in a religion that hold sacred the hatred of all Jews. I would wager people that like to throw firebombs at schools are overrepresented here.

6

its the same as “jesus hates blacks” which you will find in the KKK or other radical groups, who know where it comes from… but it sounds good as a backing to your movement.

7

Rune, those purported quotes from Mohammed or the Koran, where did you hear them? Did they specifically say the words were from the Koran, or from the mouth of the Prophet? Was there a notation for the sura they were supposedly from? I think you need to know those things before you believe the Prophet hated Jews. He didn’t, you know. There are several English translations of the Koran online, try reading one of them and see if you find anything that comes close to that garbage.

8

Well, Muhammad did wipe out several Arab tribes that practiced Judaism, iirc.

9

Please don’t make us go through this again. It’s the same old, same old; Jews are a convenient target because they’re small but have this silly “World Jewish Conspiracy” thing you can hang blame on. They’re a convenient demon, and the history of the issue would take pages to explain. Just chalk it up to a general hatred fuelled by conpiracy theories that date back to the phony Protocols of the Elders of Zion and blah blah blah.

It’s all really tiresome and it comes back to the same thing; they hate Jews because Jews are an easy target.

10

Probably the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Protocols was imported into the Middle East and became really popular. And remember, groups like Hamas don’t just want to kill all the Israelis…they want to kill all the Jews worldwide.

11

The first one is a hadith. And Rune wasn’t expressing an opinon on whether or not Muhammed hated Jews. He was saying that there are passages from the Koran and hadith that can be used to justify hatred of Jews.

12

I don’t believe the Prophet hated Jews - in fact I don’t believe he was a prophet of any kind and don’t know enough of either history or Islam to have any meaning what kind of views he actually held (and naturally I’m happy you (a Moslem i trust) say he didn’t). I just wrote that certain Moslems do believe Mohammed hated Jews and preached they should be murdered – and I think so because I have heard Moslems say so. And I would think chances are such views are represented in groups that throw firebombs at schools in Montreal – of course I have no proof of that but it’s hardly a far fetched assumption.

13

Well, there are certain muslims that hate jews because of the specific actions of the explicitly Jewish state of Israel. The disconnect with reality here is what that has to do with Jews in Canada.

14

Sorry for my misunderstandings, about the statements I was questioning. And thanks to Rune and Captain Amazing for their clarifications.

By the way, I’m not Muslim, I’m an Episcopalian.

15

Canadian Jew here. The news is appalling, but until the perps have been caught, there is no proof it was done by Muslims, other than a note left on the scene which has not been released to the public yet (and which could be intended as a blind, and in any event doesn’t seemingly claim that the attacks were the work of Muslims). Could just as easily have been any random Jew-hating nutter.

It makes sense to assume that it was some radical Muslim group, but I would wait until there is proof …

16

They did it in Montreal because airfare to Israel is expensive and their mommies wouldn’t let them go and there might be nastier consequences if the Mossad got their hands on them instead of the Montreal juvenile justice system.

17

Of course, “they” might equal “one unbalanced nutbag pretending to be an organized movement”.

18

I don’t understand why a Canadian resident would link Canadian Jews to Israeli actions. It boggles the mind. What possible justification can there be to link Montreal Jews to the camps in Gaza?

You’re going to tell me I need to get out more aren’t you? :slight_smile:

Malthus, I agree on reflection that it’s premature to say it was “legitimate” Palestinian linkage. Hopefully it’s just punks.

19

Ah, justification.

Well… I’m not a Palestinian, nor am I a Jew-baiting nutter, so anything I might have to say on the subject is speculation.

First of all, I don’t remember anything in the Koran against Christians or Jews specifically, although “unbelievers” are addressed. I don’t believe it said anything about “slaughter them mercilessly wherever you find them,” though.

On to the Shari’a, which is the basic Islamic code of behavior, a sort of written social more. It’s largely concerned with behavior and law. I don’t seem to remember anything there about slaughtering anyone you don’t like, although there are allowances for the death penalty and for maiming, for criminals found guilty of specific offenses. Then again, it is, literally, a medieval criminal code.

This leaves the Hadith, the collected utterances of the Prophet, which are often used to settle matters not covered by the Koran and the Shari’a. Unfortunately, we’re literally talking about the day to day words of the Prophet, many of which are open to interpretation by the listener.

If, for example, Mohammed (peace be unto him) had ever eaten brussels sprouts, and decided he did not like them, modern Egypt would probably make no comment about this… whereas, the Taliban might well have made the possession, sale, or consumption of brussels sprouts punishable by … well, you get the idea.

…and when you have crazy people, hateful people, or simply extremely stubborn people interpreting Holy Scripture… well… jeez, ANYTHING can happen.

Therefore, ANYTHING is justified.

Holiness is one thing.

The will of men is quite another.

20

Bravo Master, and may I add that Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully for generations, in Spain, Africa, the Ottoman Empire, the Middle East and beyond.

It is only the warped interpretation of religious texts - any religious text - that makes people evil and twisted.