Why do American Jewish voters favour the Democrats?

[NY_JEW]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

You take your conclusion too far. Non-Orthodox Jews identify as Jews strongly and have a strong sense of unity with Jewish interests. In my experience, that which DOES bind most Jews I know is the desire to protect Jewish interests. Love of Israel, desire to not make this a Christian country, freedom of religion and liberal ideals (like Tikkun Olum and ethical treatment of all people).

You may argue that those are not what you define as Jewish ideals. I would argue that you are incorrect. My experience has as much validity as yours. Just like we do not practice Judaism as was done in the time of the Temple, Judaism evolves as it did to survive the diaspora. It will evolve and survive again.

You may think your attitude is not an attack. You are mistaken. It is an attack on what those of us non-Orthodox Jews hold dear- our self identity as Jews and practicing Jews. It is attitudes like those you’ve described that are the true destructive force today, more so that many other outside assaults.

first of all 90% of the uses of tikun Olam are infect against tikun olam (gay marriage for example in a jewish construct would clearly be describes as destroying the world instead of fixing the world)

second of all every singe federation study shows that Orthodox jews give more money to jewish causes (and the only area where Orthodox jews are less then any specific type of non Orthodox jews in those studies is in giving to the federation which most Orthodox jews think is very anti Orthodox so they give to other organizations)
for example

C-NY-New_York-1998-Main_Report.pdf

please see page 65 (remember they are not a pro Orthodox organization)
though I suggest you read the whole thing and get back to me.
Please explain to me why at most pro Israel rallies Orthodox are usually the majority despite the fact that many Orthodox jews don’t go for religious reasons
(though many times (even satmar) they vote to protect Jewish lives in Israel)
explain to me why the % of people rank Israel in their top few areas of concern when voting are almost always Orthodox.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Your data is a decade old. (published 2000, revised 2003)

And anyway- eh? It’s a continuum. One doesn’t have to be at the extreme end to feel the interests are important. I have many priorities, not one. The fact that you discount certain ones- calling support for SSM against Tikkun Olum, when I use it as an example of my Jewish priorities underscores the biases in your point of view.

You don’t get to re-define the bar and then tell me I don’t meet the standard.

[NY_JEW]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Your data is a decade old. (published 2000, revised 2003)

And anyway- eh? It’s a continuum. One doesn’t have to be at the extreme end to feel the interests are important. I have many priorities, not one. The fact that you discount certain ones- calling support for SSM against Tikkun Olum, when I use it as an example of my Jewish priorities underscores the biases in your point of view.

You don’t get to re-define the bar and then tell me I don’t meet the standard.

your right its a decade old (the new study is not going to be out for a few months) but those numbers ate trending that non Orthodox jews are less involved in anything even remotely Jewish then ever before.
learn all the gemaras that define the words you use and you’ll see what I mean. taking a jewish word and throwing it on the libraeal anti jewish agenda doesn’t make it jewish.

if you want to show me that you have some jewish interests give me examples of tikun olom that would mean that but don’t just give me those words because like I said many of it’s uses are about as jewish as Christianity (also took jewish concepts and turned them on it’s head) is.

[NY_JEW]

here’s a different city and much more recent but has less info
and you’ll see that the pattern holds up no matter what

C-IL-Chicago-2010-Slides_Rabbinical_Leadership_Presentation.pdf

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Liberal anti-Jewish agenda? Yeah, no bias there.

As long as you get to define the words and decide that the rest of us don’t measure up, then of course you get the conclusions you’re looking for.

Well, must go to work. As tempting as it is to keep engaging this discussion, I think I’ll stop here as it will really prove pointless.

[NY_JEW]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Liberal anti-Jewish agenda? Yeah, no bias there.

As long as you get to define the words and decide that the rest of us don’t measure up, then of course you get the conclusions you’re looking for.

Well, must go to work. As tempting as it is to keep engaging this discussion, I think I’ll stop here as it will really prove pointless.

1. you didn’t respond to the Chicago data (or the NY one 10 years old or not) that shows that even using your own types of measures Orthodox jews are way more Jewish then non Orthodox Jews.

2. if you want to claim that something that the only 2 times is directly mentioned in Jewish tradition it’s linked with the destruction of the world, I would think the burden of proof would be on you to prove that the item in question is being a proof of your jewish behavior. in Short all I am asking you to do is before using a statement as proof of your jewish identity show me how the item in question is jewish.

[NY_JEW]

you openly said that Israel is a measure of your jewish identity (where like always Orthodox win big again)

C-PA-Philadelphia-2009-Summary_Report.pdf

page 41

[Knorf]

@NY_JEW

… True Judaism’s positions in most areas are much closer to the Republican party (both ideologically and pragmatically) now the democrat.

But see, this is just your opinion. Some might disagree. It depends what you prioritize.

[NY_JEW]

@Knorf

But see, this is just your opinion. Some might disagree. It depends what you prioritize.

show 5 areas where True Judaism (this means that there is a source for it, or there is no source against it and it’s clearly better pragmatically for Jews/Judaism) is closer to the democratic party. (this is not referring to individual candidates but party platform)

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

NY JEW, may I ask where you’re from?

[Acsenray]

I’m guessing New York?

NY true Jewishperson.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@NY_JEW

… which includes excepting all the commandments plus …

Gee – if I could make exceptions to a lot of the commandments, I bet I could be a true Jew too!

[NY_JEW]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

NY JEW, may I ask where you’re from?

I would have thought that is obvious.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@NY_JEW

I would have thought that is obvious.

Well, New York covers 55,000 square miles. Could you be a little more specific within that area?

[Finagle]

@NY_JEW

Judisim has clear rules over who’s jewish and the only ones who meet those criteria are people who’s mothers were jewish or had a valid conversion. And since a Conservative conversion is worthless then unless she had valid conversion (which includes excepting all the commandments plus being administered by non heretics) she is not jewish no matter how much she claims to be. (though if she would want to be jew and be fully excepted she should get a Orthodox conversion and practice Judaism. In those same Orthodox communities that you love to bash take the commandment to love a convert very seriously and we will never say to someone who truly converted that they are not truly jewish and are in fact forbidden to ever bring up his old life)

Various denominations have different standards for conversion, and only the Orthodox denominations would go as far as saying a Conservative conversion is worthless. And seeing as there is no actual central authority in Judaism, then your saying that a conversion is “worthless” is pretty meaningless unless that person wants to be accepted into your specific community. (Or, I suppose, get married in Israel where they seem to have taken the “truly converted” bit to heart, and will happily say to someone who is converted that they are not truly Jewish unless the rabbit doing it was Orthodox * enough *.)

[NY_JEW]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Well, New York covers 55,000 square miles. Could you be a little more specific within that area?

Manhattan

[Farmer_Jane]

@NY_JEW

Judisim has clear rules over who’s jewish and the only ones who meet those criteria are people who’s mothers were jewish or had a valid conversion.

Hi. Newsflash: There’s a bigger Jewish world outside of Brooklyn. Your answer to the “Who is a Jew?” question is not found in the Torah.

Your position on “Who is a Jew?” (and similarly, “Who is a Good Jew?”) is a direct result of the Orthodox’s rejection of Reform Judaism. It has nothing to do with halachah and you should be ashamed of yourself for how you speak to other Jews about it.

[Farmer_Jane]

Oh, and P.S.: If you were truly Orthodox and didn’t believe in revisionism and adaptation, then you wouldn’t believe the stuff you say. Rejection of less- ‘observant’ [new to the Tribe] Jews is a modern thing.

Although the Hatam Sofer’s position was dominant, other Orthodox voices called for a more tolerant attitude toward those who veered away from the halakhic way of life. Rabbi David Zvi Hoffman (1843-1921), the leading figure in Berlin’s Adass Jisroel Orthodox community, favored a “cooperative separatism” i.e. the Orthodox needed to maintain their distinctiveness, but also had to find ways of cooperating with the non-Orthodox. [3] In an earlier generation, Rabbi Yaacov Ettlinger (1798-1871) had sought to ameliorate the halakhic status of the non-observant Jew through the classification of “tinok shenishba”-comparing the non-observant Jew to a Jewish child who had been captured and raised by non-Jews and who therefore could not be held responsible for ignorance of Jewish laws and customs.[4] Thus, while the non-Orthodox masses certainly fell short of Jewish religious requirements, they should not be rejected out of hand; they simply did not know any better. This halakhic argument fostered a more sympathetic approach than that taken by Orthodox isolationists.

snip

Professors Avi Sagi and Zvi Zohar, in their study of halakhic literature relating to conversion, suggested that the first halakhic authority to equate conversion with total commitment to observe mitzvoth was Rabbi Yitzchak Schmelkes-and this was not until 1876!

You must be a 3rd generation revisionist. We are not. Apparently we’re closer to halachah than you are re: conversion.

The views of Rabbis Schmelkes, Schlesinger and others of like mind emerged as “mainstream” Orthodox halakha up to our own day. This is true not only in the “hareidi” Orthodox world, but also in the establishment institutions of so-called modern Orthodoxy. When I was a rabbinical student at Yeshiva University (1967-70), we learned “practical halakha” from Rabbi Melech Schachter. He articulated the position of Rabbi Schmelkes as though it were absolute, uncontested halakha.

[NY_JEW]

@CitizenPained

Hi. Newsflash: There’s a bigger Jewish world outside of Brooklyn. Your answer to the “Who is a Jew?” question is not found in the Torah.

Your position on “Who is a Jew?” (and similarly, “Who is a Good Jew?”) is a direct result of the Orthodox’s rejection of Reform Judaism. It has nothing to do with halachah and you should be ashamed of yourself for how you speak to other Jews about it.

the shulchan aruch which was written over 100 years before the reform heresy was even thought up already, says all this. only an ignoramus would ever make such a claim which may explain why you missed the Manhattan line right above this.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

Your position on “Who is a Jew?” (and similarly, “Who is a Good Jew?”) is a direct result of the Orthodox’s rejection of Reform Judaism. It has nothing to do with halachah and you should be ashamed of yourself for how you speak to other Jews about it.

@NY_JEW

only an ignoramus would ever make such a claim

This is becoming too personal, and as I’ve tried to point out a couple of times, this entire topic is not relevant to the original discussion. If you want to discuss Jewish law and matters related to it, start a new thread.