If you want to nitpick the rules like that, then your statement
“it is a public proclamation of a community’s beliefs.”
does not contradict you believing in Zeus.
If you publicly proclaim that Zeus exists, you can still say that the community believes in the one god, and still be OK.
Also, the second commandment says “Do not have any other gods before me”. So, as long as you put Zeus after God, and not before him, you are OK with that commandment also.
If you want to nitpick the rules, I think someone believing in Zeus has as much evidence that they are religiously Jewish as someone who is an atheist.
Seriously, what part of “Jews determine who we grant membership to” is giving you problems here? Does the Loyal Order of Moose and Squirrel also need your input to grant membership?
Jews have decided that believing in other gods and publicly converting to such faiths means you’re out of the club. That’s the rule. It’s just how it goes. Trying, as a gentile, to come up with Gotcha Ya! exclusions for why that shouldn’t be the rule are immaterial. That’s still the rule.
What exactly are you hoping to achieve here? The millions of Jews who subscribe to certain views on Jews and Judaism will, all of a sudden, say “Wow, a guy on the internet doesn’t agree with how we define in-group membership. Let’s change.”
I already said, Judaim isn’t concerned with what you believe privately.
The public-Zeus proclaimer is caught by “thou shalt not have any other gods before me”, of course. As this has been interpreted, that means not publicly believing in other gods at all - even as minor demiurges or whatever.
I am not “nitpicking” the rules, I’m explaining 'em. It is you who are attempting the IMHO impossible task of attempting to argue that Jews are wrong in the interpretation of their own religion!
The bottom line, to me at least, is that we’re talking about religion. It is sometimes contradictory in it’s own beliefs and inconsistent in practice. It is the result of thousands of years of analysis, debate and different factions finding their own way.
Finding inconsistencies and yelling “aha, see you’re wrong” won’t change anything. We are telling you what the belief system is for most denominations of Judaism. It just is- we live it every day with the (literal) blessings of our communities.
It’s an interesting theological debate and in two generations it will probably look different (Conservatives finally accepting patrilineal descent, for example), but it doesn’t change the realities that overt atheism is not inconsistent with religious Judaism. I just don’t believe there are enough believers of other Gods who want to practice Judaism just like people who believe in the Jewish G-D or believe in no God and get much from practicing Judaism fr me to care about the outcome of this silly debate.
ETA: And for the record: If a Zeus believer self-identifies as being Jewish and wants to wholly follow the practices in Judaism and be a part of my community, they can sit by me. What do I care?
Interesting that publicly stating “God is one” has been interpreted as “the community believes that God exists and is one, and says nothing about my beliefs and whether I believe he exists or not” (i.e. Interpreted in the most literal sense of the phrase possible) and yet the statement “thou shalt not have any other gods before me” is not allowed to be interpreted in the most literal sense possible (which would allow someone to put some other god after God)
Y’all can believe anything you want. But if I just wanted a straightforward explanation of Jewish religion, with no debate, this would have been in GQ, not in GD.
As it is, if in GD we come across any religion that has contradictory rules/practices we are free to point out that they are contradictory, even if the people in that religion have accepted them for the past several centuries. This is done frequently here in GD with Christianity for example, and for a Christian to reply with “this is just what we believe in, it’s not up for debate”, would not make for a good GD discussion.
The difference, I think, is that believing Christians are attempting to argue that their faith is correct. Obviously, what they hope for is to convince others of its correctness, as well.
I’m simply telling you what the Jewish faith is. For some odd reason of your own, you are taking exception to this explaination.
I’m not trying to convince anyone that Judaism is “correct” or to convert anyone to Judaism! For one, the rules discourage that …
And in any event, this is all a digression from the “point”, which was alleged Jewish racism.
Well Malthus, part of the problem is that you often can’t get any two Jews to agree what the Jewish faith is, so explaining it to others can get a little dicey. Arguing about it is part of the tradition.
I’ve always loved this story (odd cite to find it in though):
Certainly Judaism’s leaders has not always tolerated that which they saw as atheism - remember that Spinozawas excommunicated. Even though some us believe that he was a great thinker in the Jewish tradition.
Sorry to multi-post, but this was something I just had to respond to … the thing is that there won’t be much of a debate.
PROPOSITION: Judaism has within its umbrella rules, practices, interpretations, and positions that are mutually contradictory.
Anyone want to take the contra position? It’s probably one of the few things that could be said about Judaism that most Jews wouldn’t argue between themselves about.
Anyway - nice to see that a bit of a goofy op turned into an interesting discussion. No it is not racist, or even bigoted, for a member of a minority culture to be concerned about the preservation of his/her culture and to be aware that marrying someone of that culture makes it easier to pass on that culture’s identity, values, and traditions. That said, not too many American Jews are really all that concerned about it, since “over 50% of American Jews today marry non-Jews.” And honestly, of the 50% that do marry within the faith many do based more on the fact they have some shared background and values and understand some of the same cultural references, than out of any conscious choice to marry within the group. My wife had no intention to look for a Jewish boy to marry. She wanted to marry someone who shared her values and she happened to find that, to no great surprise, in someone of a similar cultural background.
To the op - again 50% of Jews marry outside their religiously identified group. What percent of Christians do? For the Christian true believer this verse probably informs: “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14, NIV). Why do the born again get a pass when it comes to such racism?
BTW, I understand as well that Catholics marryingnon-Catholic Christians, outside the Church, without dispensation, are not considered married by the Church. Is that racism too?
We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
:dubious: This argument was made in the 1800s. Like I said, the Orthodox are rather useful in reminding the rest of us what happens when we disregard our heritage. I totally support the local yeshivas.
We wouldn’t exist without the Orthodox. We wouldn’t exist without the Reform. Judaism needs branches just like any other nation.
Finding what makes us all “Jewish” is something that Jews need to figure out amongst themselves. It’s not really anyone’s concern but ours.
also: to the Zeus-er:
We are commanded to remember that God brought us out of Egypt
and have no other Gods but Him
but nowhere does it say that we must believe in Him.
This isn’t Christianity. Belief in God isn’t required for … well, anything. I’m going to bet that if there’s an afterlife, Baruch Spinoza and Hillel will dine at the same table.
Sounds contradictory, but so is the rule against chicken and cheese sandwiches.
If you ask me, not believing in God and being observant (to whatever degree) requires a bit of chutzpah. That’s putting your faith in the Jewish people. Humanity has been known to fail us.
Although several people have addressed it already, I think it’s worth mentioning that affirming the oneness of god doesn’t mean affirming the existence of god. God = echad doesn’t mean god = is.
I may have told this joke on the SDMB before, but I think it illustrates the way this works: A Reform Jewish child comes home from playing with her friends. “Daddy!” she says. “My friend Peter says God is three: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is that true?” Her father slams his fist on the coffee table and says, “Dammit, Rachel! There’s only one God and we don’t believe in her!”
ie you don’t have to believe something is real to define and argue about its properties, as the Shma does.
The five pillars of faith of Islam include affirming that G-d exists. The creed (apostolic creed? Nicene creed? I don’t remember right now) of Christianity includes affirming that G-d exists and that Jesus is His son. NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything.
The commandments require us to do things- rest on the seventh day, give to charity, etc. They require us to not do things- no eating pork, no adultery etc. The commandments do not requires us to believe or think anything.
Last time I checked with Maimonides and Rashi, an atheist who gives to charity and rests on the sabbath is a better Jew than one who believes in G-d but is not observant.
Shefichat Damim: Murder is forbidden: The life of a human being, formed in God’s image, is sacred.
Gezel: Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do as we please.
Gilui Arayot: Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.
Ever Min HaChay: Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. Genesis 9:1-17. The other six laws are considered to have been imposed at the Garden of Eden, but they are Noachide because with this law they are complete.) 5. Avodah Zarah: Idolatry is forbidden: Man is commanded to believe in the One God alone and worship only God. 6. Birchat HaShem: Cursing the name of God is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting God, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.
From these derive one positive category of laws:
Dinim: Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.
Karl Rahner, among others, has made the same point regarding the “unconscious Christian,” meaning not that such a person is “really” a Christian, but that such a person is really doing the will of God.
