Somebody help me out here.
How do they know a rape occured if it is unreported?
I think we can all agree that some rapes surely go unreported, for a number of reasons…but how can they quantify that?
How can they say that x percentage of rapes are unreported when the only way that we know about them is that they are reported?
It does seem like someone is pulling numbers out of the air.
From the BoJ, where the above numbers were pulled:
In other words, they ask people directly, instead of culling data from police records.
Thanks.
On several different programs I have seen a woman named Linda Fairstein who was (maybe still is) head of the sex crimes bureau of the DA’s office in New York who said rape is a crime of violence with sex as the weapon. So now the question becomes, why do men commit crimes of violence?
Whatever contributing factors there may be (childhood abuse, etc.) I still think it’s a control thing.
Some of the underreporting estimates also come from rape crisis hotline calls and visits to crisis centers. From the site linked on the first page: “In the state of Arizona, the number of calls received by rape crisis hotlines is about 10 times the number of sexual assaults known to the police.”
It does seem likely that rape (like many crimes) is about power - which leads to the question: Why do so many men feel so powerless?
As long as we’re asking questions: Why do so many rapes go unreported? I know that if I was taken advantage of, I would head to the police station a-friggin-sap.
I would, too, but I’m not worried about my parents or my husband blaming me for getting raped (because they wouldn’t) or my neighbors gossiping about how it was my own fault because I did something they think I shouldn’t have, or the police deciding I was just trying to cover up a fling , or a defense attorney trying to make me out to be a slut. Not because I think those things couldn’t happen to me, but because to be perfectly honest, my opinion of myself matters more to me than the opinions of my neighbors or the police.
What I don’t understand is why we have all sorts of classes and seminars teaching girls to avoid rape, but virtually none to teach boys not to rape in the first place.
False reporting:
less than 5% of all reported rapes turn out to be false – about the same rate as any other violent crime.
http://www.welcometobarbados.org/stand.html
More statistics than you can shake a stick at:
http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html
Especially read the stuff about how many rapists ultimately end up serving any time at all. Kind of explains a lot about the massive underreporting…
Sailor doesn’t believe that such a high number of sexual assaults occur, and thinks we should look to our own lives and the people we know to find the veracity of that. Well, how about that?
Out of the women I’ve known in my lifetime, just off the top of my head, I know of 5 including myself who have been assaulted. And those are just the ones I know about. Keep in mind I have very few women friends with whom I am close enough to talk about crap like this. In fact I can only think of 3 or 4 I’m that close to who haven’t been assaulted. Hrm… my sample’s running 50-50…
I was silent for 4 years because I believed (correctly, it turned out, as I later verified with a friend who was an Assistant DA) that the courts wouldn’t deign to prosecute him. I’ve also seen first-hand the attitude cops give you when they find out you’ve been assaulted. (In regards to a stalker sometime later, they literally asked me, “what do you want us to do about it?”)
Educate yourselves instead of blaming the victim. We’re not the ones responsible for these crimes. The criminals are.
Because some people are just no damn good.
>> What I don’t understand is why we have all sorts of classes and seminars teaching girls to avoid rape, but virtually none to teach boys not to rape in the first place.
Well, I believe boys and girls are taught that raping, stealing, assulting, killing and many other things are wrong, but some of them go and do it anyway. That’s why we need police and courts and prisons. The idea that if all boys really realised how wrong it is to rape then rapes would never happen is just silly. Just like thinking if we all realised how wrong it is to steal nobody would do it. The fact is there are criminals out there and the state cannot protect you against all of them and it is up to you to protect yourself.
>> Sailor doesn’t believe that such a high number of sexual assaults occur
I did not say that and I did not argue any particular numbers. I said the numbers cited from the DoJ around 100,000 a year seem reasonable to me. What I do believe is that people and groups who inflate numbers just to support their cause are not doing anything good for that cause. people who define rape so broadly that the numbers become meaningless are not increasing support for them. You can define rape as “unwanted attention” or as “felt a bit pressured to have sex” or whatever but that just cheapens real rapes.
But, as I said, the exact numbers are not the crux of what we are discussing which is what is the best way to diminish the number of rapes, regardless of the exact number which we all agree would be much better if it were much smaller.
I disagree with the idea that harsher penalties would significantly reduce the number of rapes. The majority of rapes are committed by guys under the influence of alcohol or other drugs and the last thing they are weighing in their minds are the number of years they may spend in jail. The idea that just toughening penalties will get rid of unwanted conducts is not supported by experience and the war on drugs is a good example.
The fact is the US is a violent society with a lot of violent crime and rape is just a part of that picture. You can go to Japan where crime levels are much lower but also police and government intervention in your life are much higher. The US is based on the idea that, until you commit a crime, the government has no business interfering in your life and so you have to wait for someone to commit a crime before you can do something. If all Americans would like to have a society like Japan then crime would diminish but you cannot have it both ways. As long as American culture is the way it is, it will have higher levels of crime than other countries and it is up to each individual to protect himself or herself. Anything else is delussion and just likely to make you a victim.
In many cases the opportunity makes the criminal and if the opportunity did not exist the crime would not be committed. Not creating opportunities is a good prevention for crime. Companies and banks do not leave money lying around for that very reason. They are sure everybody is honest but even honest people do stupid things if given the opportunity.
So do you want to be right or do you want to avoid being a victim? Nobody is denying your right to put yourself in certain situations just pointing out possible consequences. If then you are raped I will say you were within your rights but you are just as raped as if you weren’t. I am a practical man and do what is practical to avoid becoming a victim.
It is interesting that you use Japan as an example, because sexual assault is vastly underreported in Japan. Victims are frequently ashamed and unwilling to make trouble, and the government and police are generally happy to ignore things as long as the victims keep quiet. In this respect American and Japanese societies are all too similar.
Nother question: Given these stats, why aren’t more women armed?
> > why aren’t more women armed?
Lovely image. A woman saying “where’s my '38? I’m going on a date tonight and may have to blow his balls off”.
I can just imagine dates where both have been drinking and now they are on the couch and he gets pushy and she pulls a gun. Under these circumstances chances are she is as likely to be shot as he is. I still think avoiding getting to that point is a better alternative.
This is where my problem with your argument lies. You seem to be saying that it’s the victim’s fault for providing an opportunity to an otherwise perfectly law-abiding person. Many of us are given the opportunity to rape on a daily basis, but most of us don’t do it (hell, it doesn’t cross most of our minds). I’m never one drink or snort away from raping a women, as there is not enough alcohol, drugs, short skirts, teases, etc., in the world for me to do so. These things don’t create rapists. Rapists have been known to “make” their own opportunity, when none is given to them.
Wring said it best:
>> You seem to be saying that it’s the victim’s fault for providing an opportunity to an otherwise perfectly law-abiding person.
I am not blaming the victim for being raped or robbed. I am blaming people for putting themselves in situations that may lead to trouble, whether trouble does or does not ensue. In a perfect world I would not have to lock my house or my car or my money and I would be safe walking around SE DC in the middle of the night. The fact is if I go and walk certain parts of town with a lot of cash in my pocket I am putting myself at risk and chances are my money and myself would soon be parted. The fact that the criminal who will beat me up and steal my money is 100% at fault does not diminish the fact that putting myself at risk is foolish and that the best way to avoid the trouble is to avoid the situation.
Everybody jumps on me for “blaming the victim” but nobody here offers any practical solutions to diminish the number of rapes. It seems a lot of people enjoy the bitching and that’s all they want to do and I am spoiling the fun by proposing any solutions. Sorry but regardless of who is to blame, not putting yourself in a situation where you may become the victim of a crime seems like pretty good advice to me. Now you can do whatever you like. You are all free to do as you wish and you have all the right. I, on the other hand, have accepted that the world is not the perfect place it should be and I take reasonable precautions. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Bitching does not change anything. We live in a violent world where you have to take certain precautions because the state just cannot be protecting everybody and I do not know that we would want it if it was possible. You have to watch out for yourself and arguing that it is unfair and imperfect leads nowhere except to make you a victim. We can bitch all day about how bad some people are but that accomplishes nothing (except it seems that some people get satisfaction from bitching but I am not one of them). So yes, there are plenty of bad people in this world and that are bad, very bad, and they deserve to be punished for being so bad and we hate them for being so bad. Having agreed on that now my practical side wants to know what I can do so my wallet stays in my pocket and nobody seems to want to deal with that. It is almost as if some would dislike any practical solution because it would end the reason and justification to bitch and bitch some more. Sorry but I hate people who just want to bitch. Sorry. If you have a solution let’s hear it and if not I don’t want to hear your bitching.
Greater punishment I do not think that would make any significant difference because, as has been said, most rapes are by guys who are drunk and the consequences of what they’re doing are just not in their minds. Rape should and is prosecuted and punished. Whether the punishment should be harsher can be discussed but I do not think harsher punishment would make a huge difference in the incidence. The war on drugs is a very clear proof that just imposing harsh penalties does not stop certain conducts. It may provide satisfaction to thos who condemn the conduct but it does not stop it from happening.
And “to teach boys not to rape” I find almost laughable. It is wishful thinking to say that if people are taught not to commit crimes they will not commit crimes. Boys are already being taught that raping and killing and stealing are bad things.
I still think that, regardless of who is at fault, a woman can greatly diminish her odds of being raped if she avoids certain situations. Again: what is your interest? Is it bitching or is it being safer?
You are also free to hire a bodyguard when you go out on a date just like I can hire a bodyguard if I feel like strolling with loads of cash around certain parts of town at midnight.
Nobody here is seriously proposing or discussing any solutions, just bitching, bitching and more bitching. Man, that “manual suicide machine” proposed by Justthinks must seems pretty attractive if all you can do is bitch all day about how unfair the world is.
Lovely, no. Call me paranoid, but I always lock my car, and when walking through a crowd, keep my hands in my pockets. I feel safe, for the most part, because I’m large and unattractive enough to deter the unarmed predators, and not distinguished enough to deter the armed ones.
But honestly, can’t a women on the couch as sailor described leave, or call the police? It’s really disturbing to think that an average guy would lose the ability to discern that she doesn’t want this after a few drinks.
An armed woman is only armed if she can get to her gun. If it’s in her handbag, and the handbag’s in the other room, she isn’t armed any more. At best, she could kill her assailaint after the fact, which, if this became common, would deter some rapists, but not very many, I would think.
The roots of rape aren’t about misogyny, I think. It’s just that most men date/marry women, and are able to overpower them. It’s about power, and a sense of entitlement, not a hatred of feminity per se. I have no idea how to cut back on these things. A greater emphasis on respect for humanity (and not just women) would help, but it also feels, as sailor mentioned, like a cop-out.
As an aside, I’ve heard varying statistics about how X % of women will be raped in their lifetimes, but I’ve never heard the converse. What percentage of men rape women in their lifetime? How many rapes do they commit? Is the problem of rape as staggering as looking at the victims alone suggest, or are we facing a relatively small (but very busy) number of repeat offenders?
Lola’s question cuts to the heart of the matter. I cannot imagine committing a violent rape. I can imagine being so enraged that I attack a woman, prhaps even kill her (although I never have and, I hope to God, never will), but I cannot comprehend a situation in which I’d force myself on an obviously unwilling woman. When talking about rape, we focus on the mantra “don’t blame the victim”, as perhaps we should, but what makes these monsters tick?
sailor I certainly am not suggesting that a woman cannot ‘reduce her chances of getting raped’. What I am suggesting is that in order to substantially do so, from your own scenarios, she must absent herself from damn near any human contact except in a large group.
For example - one can reduce one’s rate for car theft by:
Always locking one’s car and installing anti- theft devices.
Only purchase POS cars and always locking them etc.
not owning a car in the first place.
Would you suggest to the BMW owner that they’re partially at fault for their car being stolen by purchasing a car that’s high on the car theft ‘want list’?
I agree that people should lock their cars and not leave keys in them, but what is the analagous situation for a woman/rape?
I’d suggest that going out on a date, riding in the same car, drinking (anything, remember GHB), is in the rhelm of normal day to day behavior, and people should not be chastized from doing these things because some people are evil.
IF that’s the case, no one should ever invite anyone else into their home. SHould never leave their house. Should never get into a car w/some one else. SHould never accept a check from them. Should never buy something (since it could be stolen) etc etc etc.
What you seem to be focusing on is that women should ‘reduce their risks’ by refusing to place themselves into what you call ‘risky’ situtations.
However, rape can happen anywhere, anytime. So, by taking a cab, riding a bus, walking to the subway, a woman could be placing herself into a situation where a rape can occur.
How about you telling me which actitivites you believe are ‘too risky’ for a smart woman to do, so as to ‘reasonably’ reduce their risk?
As a pre-emptive:
WHile you may think that the suggestion to ‘not get drunk’ in the company of people she doesn’t know/trust is a good one, let me point out that there’ve been rapes where the person was known and trusted, and also with the drug GHB, anything the woman consumes can in fact create a ‘drunken’ situation.
>> What percentage of men rape women in their lifetime? How many rapes do they commit? Is the problem of rape as staggering as looking at the victims alone suggest, or are we facing a relatively small (but very busy) number of repeat offenders?
You know, this is an interesting question because like in other crimes, the criminal and the victim probably have very different views. When my money is stolen I have a very clear view that the person who did it is a thief while he probably sees himslef as someone who is not so bad and even finds a justification for his act. We have had people on this board justify buying stolen property or infringing copyrights. While they see it one way, the victim on the receiving end surely has a totally different sense.
I imagine this is the way it is with rape. If you consider the majority of rapes where the guy and the woman were acquainted and probably under the influence, then I can see the woman feeling she has been raped and yet the guy feeling he just had to put some pressure on her to get what he wanted. He does not see himself as a rapist just like someone who shplifts or who pirates software does not think of himself as a thief. people find amazing ways to justify what they do.