This almost actually certainly something you’ve instilled in them.
Meh. There is more than one context in which “it takes a village” is a meaningful aphorism.
In any case I suspect Lego sets were pinked up because more were sold when some were made girly and princessified. Not out of some trying to keep standard Lego sets out of girls hands. And I don’t think that exclusively came from parents. Just like some of parents of boys were upset that our sons wanted gun toys and used sticks to shoot at each other when no toy gun was around, some girls whose parents try to avoid the Disney princesses still endure lots of requests for pink and purple and yes princess outfits.
Yes this has to do with how dance is viewed in a cultural context. My eldest (now powerlifts as his hobby) asked to take ballet after seeing Nutcracker. He kept it up for a few years but dropped because there were too few other boys doing it. A friend kept it up and was also a great football player. The friend’s answer to any razzing was his zero injury rate that he credited dance for training him to be aware of how he placed his feet. (If he ever responded about how he as a straight male was well placed with a group of attractive girls my son shared not.)
We internalize cultural norms even if make a conscious effort not to.
And it is far more subtle than you can believe. I remember a study in which playground monitors (usually teachers) were videotaped over some weeks. They were then interviewed about how often they intervened for what they saw as unsafe behavior on the equipment, for girls vs boys. Every single one said they made no distinction by sex at all. The video showed them intervening for girls something like twice as often. For boys, they were far more apt to coach them or encourage them. Girls were pulled off and forbidden to engage in that activity. Every single monitor was amazed at what the video showed.
Gender norms are like the air we breathe, and only the most egregious displays of bias are even noticed.
Women do not dance to impress men. They dance for other women. There is a subtle competition going on.
Women do not dress up to impress men. They dress up to impress other women, then they all go to the bathroom together and talk about the way that skank Rosa is dressed. All of the time checking out each other. Again, competition that may not be obvious, but it is there, and all of the women know it.
We will never understand why.
I share an n of one. My wife has some vanity indulgences (hair, nails, whatever…). They are not to impress me. She knows I don’t even notice. They are not for other men. They are not for other women. They are clearly for herself. I am suspicious that it is hard to paint in too broad of brushstrokes here.
I don’t enjoy dancing because I can’t get my body to do what I want it to; I find that frustrating. I’m sure my wife wished I felt otherwise, but she’s fine dancing with her friends.
None of that applies to me; or to most of the women I know. We are not dancing as competition, with any gender. We’re dancing because it makes us feel good. We’re dressing in what we’re comfortable and feel good in, and we don’t think one person looking good has anything to do with anybody else not looking as good. And when we go to the john, or for that matter when we don’t, we don’t go on about how we think anybody else is badly dressed.
You will certainly not understand anything coming at it the way that you are.
[quote=“thorny_locust, post:147, topic:1012501”]
None of that applies to me; or to most of the women I know. We are not dancing as competition, with any gender. We’re dancing because it makes us feel good.[/quote]
Do you dance differently alone than when you’re in a room with other people? If so, why?
Women, can’t live with 'em, can’t live without 'em, amirite?
The difference is that when I dance in a room with other people I have to keep an eye out so as not to knock someone to the floor. Cramps my style a bit.
In that I sent her to nursery because I was working full time, and let her watch television probably more than I should have. She certainly didn’t decide she wanted to wear nothing but dresses and pink or that ‘jeans are for boys’ from seeing me wear jeans every day. She didn’t become obsessed with makeup after seeing me wear it once to a wedding, but after reading a book that featured a character dressing up nicely to go out - but we read her many books on many topics, why did this one appeal to her in particular?
However much you shelter them, it’s impossible to shield kids from society forever, and that includes whatever gender roles exist. Plus as @DSeid says,
Kids have their own likes and dislikes and for most these fall along gendered lines. I’m no more a fan of forcing kids to be androgynous than I am of forcing them to follow gender roles that don’t fit them. Let them like what they like.
I danced at plenty of clubs when I was younger, and neither me nor any other woman I saw there was dressed for comfort. Dressing to impress was the rule. If you feel better and more confident when you dress nicely, isn’t that because you’ve experienced being treated better by other people when you do? Not to mention that unless you have off-the-chart levels of self-confidence or indifference, it’s very uncomfortable being dressed worse than those around you.
I go to a dance group once a week (primarily for the social aspect, but I chose it because I enjoy dancing), and I wear a skirt and nicer t-shirt for it. It’s what most of the other women wear, it’s fun to dress up occasionally and wear something pretty, it’s nice to get compliments, and I like the way a skirt moves when I dance. I don’t bother when no one’s going to see me, because what would be the point?
I guess i have off the chart levels of self confidence. I prefer not to dress too far below the norm because I’m afraid I’ll offend someone. But i definitely dress for comfort. It turns out that a nice wool suit is very comfortable if it fits properly. And a tailor can add usable pockets to one that fits a woman’s body. A suit works great when there’s an explicit dress code. And if you take off the jacket, it’s good to dance in, too.
But… My daughter loved to dress up as a child. We sent her to nursery school wearing three dresses one day, because she really wanted to wear all three. Because they were pretty. Anne we could never interest her in playing catch. She’d do it for a whole as a way to interact with us, but it clearly wasn’t something she cared about. In contrast, my son wanted to wear a hat, and didn’t want to wear warm clothes, but otherwise was pretty indifferent to what he wore as a child. And when he was about three, we had to create an elaborate set of rules around what he was allowed to throw where, because throwing (and catching) were among his favorite activities.
Sadly, despite both their parents loving building blocks, neither child had any interest in playing with Lego, or any of the several other building sets we acquired, which turned out to be toys for us.
Kids are very aware of gender roles, but i think they are also aware of their parents’ reactions to their fulfilling or violating them. My daughter, who was reared by very “egalitarian” parents, struggled with wanting both to be girly and to please her parents, which didn’t always coincide.
I largely dance for the social aspect. My “dancing” alone is mostly either tapping my foot to the music or practicing steps to dance with others. (I dance a complex style of square dance, and actually practice more by moving coins around to learn how the dancers interact than by moving my body.)
Off the chart levels of self confidence is the guy who went to the Leaver’s Ball in a dinner jacket and bow tie on his top half and brightly patterned boxer shorts on his bottom half. 
I think it was in imitation of a scene from some then-popular movie.
Off the chart levels of indifference would be going dancing in a baggy tracksuit with stains and holes in.
I can’t imagine being comfortable in a suit; suit jackets are so confining, you can’t raise your arms or put them forward comfortably. Plus I avoid wool because it’s horribly itchy. And I just don’t buy trousers without pockets, though sadly I do have pocketless skirts.
Yup. Most parents who have kids of different sexes say the same thing. It’s one reason I don’t believe gender roles are entirely learned or entirely malleable. They influence kids for sure, but they are based on what those kids naturally prefer.
I gave up trying to force my daughter to wear anything but dresses except on rare occasions when they would be very impractical. I drew the line at all-pink outfits, though. Thankfully she’s grown out of that one. She does like to build Lego sometimes with my husband, but isn’t interested in playing with it on her own. My nephew who’s the same age is far more into it and even building complicated technic Lego sets. I wish she was more into it, then I’d have an excuse to buy her lots and play with it myself. 
Yeah, I’ve tried to avoid this. I encourage her to try different things and take reasonable risks, but I don’t want her to think there’s something wrong with being girly. That’s a far bigger risk in my social circles than anyone trying to enforce traditional gender roles.
Sounds interesting, are there videos of the style of dance you do? I do Scottish Country Dancing, which is like a cross between ceilidh dancing and ballet. I’m a lot better at remembering the figures than dancing them well, but I think I’m improving on the latter.
I don’t think that I do; at least, unless we’re talking about a square or contra dance, which I can’t very well do at all on my own.
Oh, yeah, there is that. Though if I’m dancing alone at home I have to watch out for the cats and the dog. And the dog sometimes wants to get in on the act.
You and I hang out, and hung out, with different people.
I don’t think that I have been, actually. That is, I’ve had people sneer at me for being dressed as a hippie; but I wanted to be dressed as a hippie, and I didn’t think I’d look better if I dressed as they wanted me to. But I’ve had plenty of people act dismissively towards me when I was dressed up, and plenty of people take me seriously when I’ve got fieldwork clothes on.
I have some nice shirts I like to wear to town; and occasionally somebody compliments the shirts, and I like that. But if they’re wearing a shirt that I like at least as much, that’s great! We both get to look at shirts that we like! It wouldn’t remotely occur to me to take this as a competition.
And if they weren’t comfortable, I wouldn’t like them to wear, however much I liked them to look at.
I like to wear those shirts at home, too. I like them, whether or not anybody’s going to see me.
There are quite a lot of us who don’t fall neatly into those categories, however.
Not to mention entire societies which code things differently, so that what’s considered naturally feminine in one is considered naturally masculine in another.
Yeah. There’s nothing wrong with being girly.
Nothing wrong with being girly if you’re a boy, either. Though claiming that position in this society is likely to be a lot harder on the kid.
Maybe (certainly) going off topic on my part…but the last suit I had expertly tailored (not bespoke,
but tailored extensively by an in demand local tailor)…I could and have slept in it.
Like a pair of comfy pajamas, really. Or a glove. Whichever.
Not expensive…a lower-end Italian OTR suit…and it’s black, so limited chances to wear it. Church and funerals, pretty much.
Okay, that’s me.
Depends on the cut. I can raise my arms easily in my better suits. (I used to work in a suits-mandatory place, i got good at buying suits.) If you can’t put your arms forward, your jacket is too tight. That shouldn’t be a problem.
Ladies trousers have shallow pockets of limited use. I take them to a tailor who makes them larger. I can but a couple of apples next to my phone in my pocket.
I wouldn’t say I was ‘hanging out’ with the 10s or 100s of other people who happen to be in a pub or club. I’m talking about my observations of strangers, in a variety of dance clubs with a variety of music styles. So either you were dancing at a different kind of venue, or this has varied over time and place. 
Obviously this is context dependent, but there’s plenty of research showing clothing influencing first impressions, and I don’t think it’s controversial that there’s a halo effect from looking more attractive.
I believe you, but that doesn’t mean no one else sees it that way. Aren’t there pretty common concerns that kids will be judged at school for not having the latest designer brands, and girls will suffer low self esteem from comparing themselves unfavourably to perfectly made-up, airbrushed Instagram models?
Do you wear things that are impractical, uncomfortable or take extra effort when you aren’t going to see anyone else? That’s what I’m getting at.
For sure, but we’re not the average.
There are differences, but also common themes. Like, ‘dance’ could be considered masculine or feminine, but it probably won’t be the same dance. Think @puzzlegal’s war dance vs the ballet the other girls were doing. If it stresses strength, violence or technical moves, like moshing, breakdancing or Cossack dance, it’s likely to be seen as more masculine. If it stresses grace or sexiness, it’s likely to be seen as more feminine.
Yes. And even if there were no prejudice, which there is, it’s still harder being different from others.
That, alas, is very true.
Thus initiating the long, slow process of turning Androids into iPhones 
Yes, i wished, for the point of that sentence, that my pocket phone was an Apple, too. But it’s an Android.
And i meant to say, “put”, not “but”, of course.