That’s hilarious!
Now THAT girl was displaying a serious weakness, teh crazy!
Or c.1) Confidently going up to women with lines like “You…me…in a cab…bedroom…naked…lots of screaming…dogs barking…neighbors complaining…”
It’s actually a really silly confirmation bias. The guy probably has plenty of guy friends that he thinks are perfectly nice people, and many of them likely are taken. He wouldn’t dream of breaking them up with their wife/gf (well, I guess if he’s a Nice Guy™ he might), because they’re so nice together. He probably knows plenty of girls with nice boyfriends that are good together.
This fosters jealously, if he’s nice why can’t he get a girlfriend? Then he sees a girl with a rank asshole who he tries to passive-aggressively get to go out with him (or a woman stuck in a self-destructive dating cycle). She’s the only one he wants, because she’s the only one not in a nice, happy relationship with a nice person. Thus the person tends to think “All the girls [I want to date] only date assholes.” Not to mention that Nice Guys, while passive aggressive and assholish, are often meek in a way that attention seeking women who tend to seek out abusive relationships will eat alive (IME most sane women avoid Nice Guys like the plague, it usually takes the fucked up ones to either not notice or actively tease a Nice Guy).
And thus the mutually exclusive facts of “all the girls who like Nice Guys are taken” and the evolved-from-months-of-resentment “All girls want assholes” are born.
At least that’s what I’ve observed from “Nice Guys.”
The thing is that this can be a boon in some cases. I’m not that confident, I’ll admit, and I’m prone to freakouts, but that’s mostly a chemical imbalance issue. When I’m in a normal mental state, I think I’m somewhat blessed in that I can turn big picture and minutiae mode on and off (though sadly I’m not sure I’m as good at either as someone with a brain wired specifically for one or the other). A lot of really good programmers are good programmers because they get caught up on details and can predict and anticipate any tiny little flaw in the system. They can come up with multiple solutions and their implications, pros, and cons when confronted with a problem.
This is a great, necessary skill. But it’s also why many programmers need managers. Because if you leave one of these guys to their own devices, nothing will get done while they contemplate how the second law of thermodynamics affects the two methods they might use to write that login server.
Indecisiveness is a weakness, yes, but it can also lead to very good, analytic solutions. Being too big-picture minded and going with your first whim can be good too, because it gets things done – but can often lead to a project failing catastrophically due to unforeseen consequences. It does, perhaps say something about society that the more confident, decisive, big-picture people are often in charge of the more analytic, small-picture indecisive people (though it does make some sense). However, I don’t think one or the other is better, they’re both important, and they’re symbiotic. Left to their own devices both types of people would probably crash and burn rather spectacularly.
I should have just started a thread about why women don’t like “nice guys.” I figured it would boil down to this anyways. It’s an interesting topic. With that being said, I still appreciate a lot of the responses and try to honestly take the advice thats given.
Canvasshoes - I equate timidity with weakness because that’s how I see it. I can’t think of a single thing in my life I have gained from being timid. I can think of plenty of things i’ve missed out on from being timid. I can think of plenty of times where I was ridiculed and made fun of while being too timid to stand up for myself.
Obnoxiousness, aggressive behaviour would better be termed as “perceived” strength. Which is still better than being timid.
But I think it goes deeper than that. Some examples I’ve pointed out earlier. The homeless, the addicts, the poor, – these people are ridiculed by and large. “Pieces of shit” seems to be the catch phrase that I hear. No thoughtful communication about why they are in their plight. They’re just pieces of shit.
Income inequality is HUGE in this world. Still, people revere the 1% as the “job creators.” Those that are less fortunate, they’re just lazy.
I can be such a cynic sometimes, I make myself sick. I subscribe to a lot of world issues type media because I find them interesting and although they are not “feel good” type material, I think there is a lot of truth to be found. But it definitely has an effect on my psyche day-in and day-out.
I’m really not this bad in real life, at least not all of the time.
Oh good god no. Are you kidding me? Those threads are a predictable bore and they pop up like once a week. This thread is much more interesting.
I’m not convinced that people really, truly hate weak people. There’s certainly a specific type of Objectivist asshole that is rather prevalent in the current political landscape that really plays up the whole “hate the meek and indecisive, hate the poor because they’re not as good as you” etc thing. But I don’t think most people really, truly, hate weak people. I think weak people just don’t ping anybody’s radar – and even when they do, most engage in behaviors that shoo away the ones that notice them.
That’s how I am. I mean, I’m incredibly confident, personable, and outgoing to the point that I get complimented when I’m doing something in my field – or when I’m forced to interact with others. But I have social anxiety, once somebody’s my friend they tend to like me and find me outgoing and confident etc. But I have tons and tons of trouble making that initial connection, I just can’t walk up to somebody and start a conversation, and I have trouble taking the initiative in keeping friendships going until I’ve known the person for weeks or months.
So if I go to places I end up being the shrinking violet sitting in the corner. People don’t hate me, even if I feel that way sometimes, they simply don’t notice me. And if they do notice me, they assume I have a reason that I want to be alone. If people do make an effort to talk to me, it’s usually them doing the initial few weeks of work that it takes to build me up into a true, outgoing friend to them. This leads to problems, if I never call them or approach them of my own accord people tend to assume that I don’t like them, I’m mad at them, or that I’m simply not interested enough in being their friend. This isn’t (usually) true, but it’s not an unfair assumption. So in the greatest irony, my fear of pissing people off and driving them away puts me into a pattern of behavior where I… piss them off and drive them away. (I’m getting better, mostly because I’m aware of all this now, but it’s definitely difficult).
It’s not that weakness is hated, I really don’t think so. It’s that people who tend to be meek and self-conscious tend to engage in behaviors that send signals to people that they don’t want to actually be with them. If you spend all your time in a state that makes everybody else do the work, they’re not going to think you’re worth the effort because it doesn’t seem like you want to be with them. Is it the weak person’s fault? Well… define fault. I don’t think anybody with a chemical imbalance is really at fault, per se. I also wouldn’t lay value-judgment level fault at those who are merely chronically shy. But it’s certainly not the normal or outgoing peoples’ faults for thinking that a person who makes every effort to be alone until Mr. Outgoing approaches them doesn’t actually want to be with them.
I don’t really want to give a value judgment of saying the weak person is “at fault” in a negative way. But the weak one is, unfortunately, the one sending the mixed signals. And thus it’s kind of up to them to send the right ones since people aren’t mind readers and can’t determine magically that the guy who’s avoiding you until you approach them secretly wants to be your BFF and is actually a very good and loyal friend after you build the relationship. Nope. They can get a good, loyal friend without dealing with the mixed signals. No reason to add the extra layer of complexity and possible drama.
This, incidentally, is also the Nice Guy archetype at its most innocent. A Nice Guy is basically a meek person like I described + a ridiculous sense of entitlement and misogyny. All of the mixed signals and quiet withdrawal from society with an added helping of passionate, quiet fury at the world for not giving unto them the woman they are owed. Unfortunately, that added sense of entitlement and misogyny also tends to strip away any chance that deep down a Nice Guy is actually a nice person.
I’m gonna cut to what is, to me, the most important part of this message. Keep in mind that this is all pulled out of my ass like a stringy turd, so YMM most definitely V.
Because the human heart naturally gravitates towards the theory of a Just World, where people get what they deserve. By a tremendous effort of will and rationality, successful people - wealthy, assertive, popular, and by all metrics doing alright for themselves - can accept the fact that social class and economic privilege are largely in-born. They can accept the fact that male and female have no bearing on character and should be allowed equal opportunities. They can accept the fact that physical disability is no marker on intellectual capability. They can accept the fact that other cultures are of equal worth to their own, and that unfounded discrimination has kept people from achievement. Little by little, the notion of a Just World has disintegrated.
But this - this idea that the meek and unassertive have a legitimate disability and deserve extra attention and opportunity - that’s just a bridge too far. If you’re not responsible for your own character, then what is there left of responsibility at all?
Founded or not, the idea that being timid is ‘easier’ than being outgoing is omnipresent - even if one is naturally bubbly and sociable, talking to people and being assertive requires an outlay of energy that private activities just don’t require. (Even if one loves to run, it’s obvious that running requires more of a person than sitting still.) The decisive and assertive of the world would love to start smashing their heads against the wall, plead weakness of character, and have others take care of them (if only as a vacation), the fact that this is interesting to them suggests that they have a commonality with the weak (they both have an inclination), and the fact that they don’t do that suggests that it can be overcome.
To quote a Russian internet meme, dokole? For how long? Just where are you going to put the bar between Care-Givers and Care-Recipients? The Rights of Man are all well and good, but at some point people have to do things for themselves!
For myself, I’ve had to work long and hard to create myself as a person I can respect and who has qualities that I can respect, and I have no mercy for people who throw up their hands and say ‘I’m too scared, do it for me.’ But then, I’m a crazy person, so I suppose the more level-headed of the world will have to take care of me, too…
I couldn’t agree more. Here are a few more things (again, ANNOYING as hell to we girls), that SPNGs believe and espouse. First of, their ideas of what an “alpha male” is and things that constitute “treating women badly” are broad and bizarre.
To many (and I’ve known a few), what makes an alpha man (and asshole taking all the "good women) includes: men who smoke, ride Harleys, don’t want kids, want to put time and effort into their careers, and so on. SPNG believe that the fact that they don’t physically abuse women makes them uniquely and instantly qualified to win and own their very own Perfect Woman.
And their idea of what makes them, personally, a “nice guy” and therefore deserving of a good woman includes: guys who open doors, send flowers, say a woman is pretty and tell her “I love you” all of the time, and so on. Those things can be sweet and appreciated, and may make him a 'nice guy" but they do NOT make him a “Good Man” which is what we really need and want. “Nice” is merely something that people do, it has nothing to do with character traits, abilities, suitability for a long term relationship, meshing mentally/spiritually/physically/life-style-ly (not a real word :D), with another person. Opening doors and being all poetic and sweety-sweet (and not smoking or riding a harley) is not a basis for a relationship, not a good and lasting one anyway.
Lastly, with most SPNGs what they mean when they say they “all the good women are taken” or “I can’t get a date” is really “all the supermodels are taken” or “I can’t get a date with a 10”. These same SPNGs who whine about how they’re being abused and left dateless by the so-called asshole alpha males, generally won’t even consider dating a wallflower or less attractive girl.
I’ve seen this whole “I’m a nice guy” scenario play out a multitude of times with a ton of guys over the years and this (the usual disclaimers and exceptions apply), is generally what it boils down to.
And this sort of thing?
…if done right (that is the IMPORTANT part, done RIGHT, it can’t come off creepy), will generally at least get a girl to laugh with you, and could, at some point end up with said people naked and makin’ lots o’ noise. 
But there’s an implicit assumption that you’re making here. There’s no law that says you can go over to the guy hiding in the corner if you think he’s attractive. But you don’t, so why is that? If it has nothing to do with outward demeanor, then there shouldn’t be a problem, right?
I do understand that someone who presents themselves to you would seem to be more of an ‘open book’ so to speak, but you’ve already torpedoed that myth, so you clearly know better. Even so, we all tend to go with what’s right in front of us, both men and women, so I’m not discounting what you’re saying. But still, you have to agree that there is more to it and that ‘more’ is probably some innate fear of breaching what you perceive as social convention. Women just don’t approach men. But if you think about it, who’s problem it that–really?
But sweetie, these are YOUR perceptions of these things, not necessarily how others see you. Most of us do NOT consider aggressiveness to be strength at all, but rather to be bullying and worthy of being despised in its own right. That YOU perceive it to be strength is something you need to change (meaning your perception of it), rather than be intimidated by.
A few examples (warning this is long)…Before I moved to the states I worked for an AWESOME company, I miss them a lot. My new company is in the same field, but is not as awesome, it’s not horrible, but it’s merely an “okay” company.
The difference between me seeing one as awesome and one as okay is that their management styles are worlds apart. My former company believed in working to the strengths of their employees and helping their employees work around their weaknesses.
It’s kindof corny, but one of the best things I’ve ever heard anyone say was an engineer (and second in command) at my old company. A little background, there’s a guy at the company whom we’ll call Scotty, Scotty’s discipline was not a hard science (neither is mine so maybe I can relate :)), and Scotty didn’t practice his discipline at the company anyway, he’d pretty much become a corporate salesman and “all things client liaison”. And he was quite the talker, but a great guy.
Once after a meeting, a few of the young “Hot Stuffs” were kind of making fun of his slightly flowery happy talk and this engineer overheard them. I then heard him give them a lecture, he said “Look, I don’t want to hear that kind of stuff again, I know, Scotty can sometimes come off as kind of doofy with his talkativeness, but where do you think we come up with million dollar contracts? Everyone has their strengths and their weaknesses”.
Sorry, long story longer. So anyway, so what if you’re shy and timid, I’m a little timid in some ways myself. Work around it, work to YOUR strengths. Being timid is NOT you, as in who you ARE as a whole, it’s just a little part of you.
Going back to the whole “geeky nice guys never get a girl”. Yeah, I had my share of bad boys, (just a few and usually booted them PDQ!), but I learned quickly and mostly dated good men. Then there was Luke. Luke, in HS, was one of those boys who were always considered by girls to be the good-hearted bear of a “big brother” type, never the boyfriend, never the hot guy, never the jock. I met Luke when I was 34 or so and he was a mere fresh young choir boy of 22. Luke was the very epitome of the “nice guy” not popular. He was a marine, but because he had a more moral stance on things (didn’t want to spend time at strip clubs, didn’t want to get wasted every chance off of base, etc.), even his fellow marines considered him a choir boy and a wimp.
I’ve never been a supermodel, but my nickname when I was younger was “da Monroe”, I was a hottie. Luke and I were just friends for about 2 and a half years and then we became dance partners, then it started to get …interesting.
Long story longer, we ended up in a very hot long term relationship. It ended after 7 and a half years, but not for any sort of angry “I hate you” reasons, Luke turned out to be the one not ready to commit and I finally moved away and let him decide what he wanted to do. We’re still good friends to this day (and we still have occasional flings ala “Same Time Next Year”).
Sorry, I know, that’s a lotta information and what does it have to do with you? Luke was the geek, the nerd, the choir boy, yet he still “got” a hottie just by being himself, he didn’t care that it was stupid that he went to the local country watering hole and took line-dancing lessons (that’s where we met, but we went Ballroom pretty quickly :)).
You just need to decide what are your “strengths” vs. what you consider your weaknesses. Look, I’m shy too, or was, when I was in HS, I was excruciatingly shy. Shortly after HS and I’m teaching aerobics at various clubs around town and I taught dance, aerobics, weight training at the university, a senior center, community schools, one for a group of city utility workers, and for various night clubs.
I always ALWAYS get stage fright just before a new class (or a large charity venue), but it only lasts a few seconds and then it’s ON. Judging by my repeat students and customers, it must work. But if I paid attention to how I felt about what I did, I’d never have ventured to do all of that in the first place.
I can’t speak for others, but this is a completely different ballgame than a person being afflicted with extreme shyness.
For many (not all, and of course usual disclaimers apply), these people you list above have done this TO THEMSELVES. I’m on the fence about addictions being “an illness they can’t help”. In a lot of ways, society allows them to perpetuate that belief because enough people are enablers.
Someone, **Manda Jo **probably, DID have a very thoughtful post about the poor. The gist of it was that there are (paraphrased of course) the “situationally poor” and the chronically poor.
The situationally poor are those who are temporarily in a state of poverty due to some catastrophe (possibly their own doing, maybe half and half, whatever) that befell them. These people make a plan, roll up their sleeves and dig themselves out of their hole (I know, I’ve had to start over from square one more than a few times, often with little more than a few boxes of belongings and a friend’s couch upon which to crash).
The chronically poor are those who refuse to do anything but just stay in their situation and blame society and whine about the unfairness of it all. So you don’t have a great job, okay go to night school. So you can’t afford a reasonable apartment in a safe neighborhood? Get a tiny studio, rent a room, share an apartment.
But you mention these solutions/tips and all you get is more whining about how it’s “too hard”. Every suggestion made is met with some excuse why it won’t work, no matter how tiny or unobtrusive it might be.
When I was young, and borderline poverty, I never FELT as if I were at the poverty line, because I did so many other things to counter it, that I made do fairly nicely most of the time. A lot of people who claim to be Soooooo underprivileged and SOOOOO “oh poor pitiful me” define poverty and underprivilegedness as not being able to have a big screen TV, or all the latest fancy gadgets too. But yet they don’t want to sacrifice the least little bit (have a roommate, maybe have a second job, cut back on fast food, and so on infinity), in order to earn these things.
As to the addicts, imho, there would be far fewer if there weren’t so many who enabled them.
It depends upon what you mean by “less fortunate”. If it’s just people who simply don’t happen to be millionaires or billionaires then yeah, that’s a stupid sentiment. However as with my examples above regarding the chronically poor. Part of their problem is just that, they are lazy. They don’t like where they are, but they refuse to do even one thing about it. And that causes resentment among those who happen to be in the exact same boat (physically/earning power-wise, class position) as them but who ARE doing something about it.
I mean the 1%ers might has well be on Mars for all the influence they have on those of us here in the 99% regarding whether “people” despise these so-called weaklings or not. It’s the fellow 99%ers who are doing the despising, likely not the 1%. And the reason is, in a nutshell, “who are YOU (collective you) to be all whiny and demanding when I’m no more capable or blessed than you are, I’m where I am by work and stick-to-itiveness alone, something any able bodied person can do”. To put it simply it is something which will cause resentment when the person acting as if he’s all put upon, downtrodden, and helpless is, in fact, JUST as capable, just as able-bodied and able-minded as his counterparts and yet he’s chosen to make it as if it’s all those fellow 99%ers who are responsible for his living and happiness.
I think there is a lot of conspiracy theory about them. A lot of black “1984” rhetoric which simply doesn’t really exist among the working classes.
Because for most of us, particularly with older generations, we let the men come to us. It’s not done to be mean.
The key phrase here is “Hiding in the corner”. Yes, IF we saw the guy, we’re free to go up and talk to him, but often, the other guys present themselves first, so we never even see the guy in the first place. Either way, it still has nothing to do with outward demeanor, it’s more “who gets to her first”. Whether it’s the outwardly confident male, or the shy one in the corner, for a lot of women (not all, and fewer than in previous generations nowadays), it doesn’t matter, we’re probably going to wait for him to come to us, and we’ll most likely wait for him to do the asking out.
I torpedoed what now?
You’re missing the point. It’s not that we see the one guy hiding in the corner, and then see the guy who’s already come up to us and started a conversation and evilly go “Ha HA, I’m going to make shy guy over there miserable and pick Mr. Alpha Male here inSTEAD of him, just to make him sad and lonely”. It’s that Mr. Confident usually marches up to us prior to any sort of inventory, and simply preempts the whole thing before we even see Mr. Shy in the Corner, in the first place.
Not to be mean, but it sounds as if it’s the problem of those who are excruciatingly shy. Again, we don’t have ESP you know, it’s not as if we do a rehearsal/practice run before we go to the night club, coffee shop, or party and tell ourselves “now Listen! be sure you go in the back door, so that you can scout out every spare corner a shy man may be hiding in, and then make SURE he’s sure he doesn’t want you before you commit to go out with the guys who will actually ask you out”.
And no, we often don’t actively approach men (of either stripe), but we DO have many other ways of getting them to approach us. So let’s say the woman does manage to get around to where she’s seated (without being snatched up by Alpha Male), and can somewhat look around and say “hey, that shy guy over in the corner is kinda cute”. She’ll often go into (for lack of a better term) “fishing mode”. She’ll make eye contact and smile, she’ll do it a number of times (while trying not to look obvious and stalkerish), and then with luck, he’ll get the hint and come over. If not, and she’s still interested (more on that further down thread), she’ll have to resort to other measures, walking by on her way to the restroom and getting a drink near where he’s sitting, dropping something on the floor “accidentally” by him, make a joke about something occurring in the room to give him an opening to start a conversation, and so on and so forth.
I don’t know about women of younger generations, but that’s the way a large percentage of women in my generation do things yes. I certainly wouldn’t say it’s from “fear of breaching a social convention” though. I’m 53, and I’m probably one of the more brave women from my generation re: conversing with men, but I still doubt I’d actually “ask a guy out,” go right up to the edge of it, and make sure he knew he would get a yes if he asked me out? Sure. But actively say “would you go out with me”? Probably not. IMHO? I think a lot of men claim they’d like it, but few, in practice, turn out to actually respond to it. But then, I’ve been out of the dating world for about 8 years now, so maybe things have changed drastically. 
Just to touch on something I said earlier, the whole “fishing expedition” and whether or not the guy will come over with normal womanly encouragement (a few looks and smiles). Why do women often decide not to pursue it if he’s STILL too shy after that? One reason can be (though exceptions and disclaimers of course, apply) we want to be wanted and pursued, if he’s not willing to pursue us, we can (subconsciously) envision a relationship with the guy where we never feel as if he passionately wants us and where we’d have to be the ones to always ALWAYS to the chasing and the pursuing. Being in that position can make us feel really unfeminine and unwanted, NOT a good way to feel. So if the guy seems as if “he’s not that into you” we won’t go for it.
Today, a cashier gave me a dirty coin. At the first place I didn’t realize it was very dirty. The dirty covered almost all over the places. So, now I can’t give it to anyone without cleaning it. I am sure no one will accept it. Anyway! The reason why she gave it to me had a lot of things to do with weakness. Let me explain. I am on abroad. She realized I was stranger/foreigner/whatever-hell. So, even if I had realized, there wouldn’t have been any change. She knew I wouldn’t be able to confront her. People not only despise or demonize weak, they also exploit the weak.
After the realization of dirty coin, I went back to there. I felt so sorry about myself* that I couldn’t confront her, couldn’t say anything to her. I sat down. Just watched her how she treated other costumers. She was greeting other costumers with a big smile. 100% of other costumers get the same big smile. Because none of them were stranger/foreigner as I am. I got a dirty 2€ and and no greeting.
Just a silly example from real life. Choice to believe my story is yours.
*to be honest, I sometimes over-dramatize myself. I actually laughed at what I wrote when proof-reading. But it’s completely true I felt so sorry about myself. The realization of the fact that everyone was trying to find a way to fuck me up, exploit me… devastating.
*
Did she push you off? :eek:
Sometimes you easily understand what people think about you . They don’t have to say to you “Fuck off”. The way they look at you or their tone of voice politely says “You’re not welcome”.
Have you considered talking to a counselor or mental health professional before? You’ve just described a *tremendous *amount of paranoia.
No. Some people are just polite racist. 
They pussyfoot around, with a passive-aggressive attitude, speak in clever double entendre, and pout. As simple as that
From a suicide thread on this forum:
I’m late for the debate, but most people have already said what I think
A main reason would be because people are afraid of those feelings in themselves (the stereotype of the secretly gay person who hates themself and projects that onto gay people as an example). The ego defense term for this is projection.
I think it depends on the person. Truly kind people I"ve met respond to weakness with compassion. It is usually the hard asses who are actively hostile and aggressive. It isn’t so much about weakness itself as the observer.
People who themselves have been weak and worked their way through it are more likely to respond with compassion. People who think those traits will get themselves targeted if they had them seem to respond with aggression.
Tribal populations are mostly very egalitarian. They look out for each other and don’t care much for hierarchy. Even Charles Darwin said that compassion was the most important factor for human survival.
This Lord of the Flies mentality comes from being too far removed from the nature, where our bodies and minds function the best.
Don’t normalise contempt towards the innocent. If you need to have contempt, have it for the evil, the abusive, and the oppressive of the world.
People make a display of despising weakness because it makes them feel strong. People call other people stupid because it makes them feel clever.
Our brains will reward us (internally) for just feeling like we are a thing, without actually being it.