Why do people hate sex work?

[wring]

(by the way yosemite, I’m female -doesn’t change anything else, but didn’t want to leave an inaccurate picture)

First: wring says:
“haven’t thought honestly about it” (I paraphrased** Stoid**). What gall. How dare you presume to tell me or anyone else here that we 'haven’t thought about it honestly", while also chiding us for 'being judgmental about other people.

stoid responds:

Uh, Wring…I hate to break it to ya, but you made this one up all on your own! It followed you quoting me saying this:

"Originally posted by ME
(stoid)I don’t believe that. But many people have said precisely that. And some people probably have not thought about it much, and perhaps if they did they would realize that what they are reacting to is the idea of doing it themselves, not the idea of anyone doing it. "

You took the words “some people have probably not thought about it much” and magically transformed them into “haven’t thought honestly about it”, complete with quotes, TWICE, even.

This does call into question the accuracy of your reporting, I’m afraid. If you can’t accurately recall what you are looking directly at, well… I’m afraid I’ll have to keep the salt close by when I read what you write in the future.

(once again, I’m polite. Being rude does not improve your position.) Your OP asked us to think about sex workers, not ourselves doing it, but anyone else. Then, you state the above, which includes: “they would realize that what they are reacting to is the idea of doing it themselves, not the idea of anyone doing it” . This means that you were charging us with not responding to the OP, and instead, substituting how we’d feel about it personally. so, I paraphrased that to ‘not thinking about it honestly’, which I would say is a fair characterization of your position. You don’t like the word “honestly”? give me your choice instead. But don’t accuse me of “if you can’t recall with accuracy what you’re reporting”…

Other judgmental statements by you, who decry our judgment of prostitution as being something less than wonderful(you actually state on page two: “So, don’t be so quick to judge, folks.”):
From your first response on page two : "How dare we tell anyone else how they should be experiencing it(sex)? " and "It’s MY meal, right? Well, it’s MY sex life, and if I can use my sexuality to make a buck, who are YOU to in any way interfere or judge me for it?

From page three, your first post on that page:

“they happily choose to have sex with other couples, who are you or anyone else to judge them as wrong?”

from your post at 6:47 pm "If we stepped back from our personal distaste for sex work (meaning we wouldn’t do it ourselves), and looked with an objective eye at what it is, perhaps we could stop treating it as something so unworthy "

Now, you started this thread on 1/4/01 at 2:20 am. So far, we’ve been treated to your opinions, your quotes from your step mom and you quoting documents and studies without providing enough information for anyone to check your numbers You’ve quoted the CDC and other health reports without giving us, for example, the year of the data or any other way to check and verify your information. You’ve repeated your assertions that street walkers are rare amongst prostitutes, without providing any documentation of that. You’ve said, oh,yea, my step mom has all that stuff, several times. I’d say we’ve given you plenty of time to come up with it. I’ve been checking as well, and haven’t found anything that supports your contentions. I have, however, provided many cites, (and Jodi has also provided specific source information -including page numbers) of information that refutes your assertions.

And yet, you continue to post such statements as( 1/9 at 2:43 pm) “I am talking from a place of knowledge” and “I’m only asking you to consider the possibility using new information instead of ingrained (and inaccurate) assumptions.”

You quoted an article A law student named Julie Pearl wrote her dissertation on prostitution which was published in the Hastings Law Journal Vol 38 #4 April 1987. It was titled: “The Highest Paying Customers, America’s Cities and the Costs of Prostitution Control” Her sources included FBI, Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Dept of Justice and various police departments around the country. but when Jodi asked you for a page number so she could check your fact, you’d ‘get back to us on that’. Still waiting.

In fact, you’ll get back to us on that has been your mantra. total reviewable cites provided by Stoid: Zero.

I have quoted sources. In addition, personally, I have known street walkers (20+ years history), strippers, some out call workers, and one who ran a out call service. The street walkers were far more in number than the rest. once again, I am calling on you to provide a cite to prove your assertion that street walkers are the 10% you claim.
For the record, I am not including those who are not having sexual contact directly with a client - so a stripper would not be included, nor a phone sex person, nor a massage parlor worker (unless she was also by manual means bringing the client to orgasm), nor the Playboy centerfold.
So, that would leave those who manually bring a client to orgasm if it be in the streets, or wherever else. You also don’t reference your numbers as being US or world wide, but I would still maintain that the ‘call girl’ that you are focusing on is still the minority, and the street walker the majority. As a quote:

: wring says:
Now, I would consider the person who hangs out on the streets and does the client either in the street or in the local 2-hour Inn to be a street worker. and I would believe that they account for roughly 90% of the prostitution trade. to which stoid replies: You are right about your description of the street worker, just wrong about the number.

To which I repeat for the umpteenth time “prove it”.

So, on to your next assertion:

Also, let us not forget that a great deal of my argument here is that if we stop despising prostitutes and what they do, perhaps they wouldn’t be so damn miserable?

Ok, so your basic premise is that “if people would stop despising prostitutes” (in other words treat them better), then “they wouldn’t be so damn miserable”? (ie be beaten up, robbed, murdered, stabbed, run out of neighborhoods etc.) Well, yea, and if GWB wasn’t a republican frat boy who bought his way into office by in part metaphorically sleeping with big business and oil interests to the detriment of us all, you probably wouldn’t hate him so much, either. Point being that you can make the if-then statement true about anything. If you wish serious consideration of your position, please:

1. Finally provide us with verifiable information about your assertions of the numbers of and types of sex workers. Your assertions of the relative infection rates of STD’s (both how many are infected and how many infect others)

2. How exactly at this point, are sex workers demeaned other than what is a cause and effect of their field IOW, if you increase the frequency of your sexual contacts and partners, you will also, as a result increase your chances of STD).

3. Explain how this ‘change in attitude’ would change the potential for their physical abuse (other than gee, if serial killers didn’t view prostitutes as disposable, they wouldn’t select them as victims so often )

And a new one, heretofore not explored - if your assertion of (in essence) my vagina is part of my body, and I am free to do with it what I will, and charge money for it, as no different intrinsically than my hand (with which I may bake bread or stimulate my client’s penis) is taken on by society as a whole, then there’s this other ramification:

4. Also, explain why rape/sexual assault should be a different classification with different (and more serious) punishments than other assaults. A person convicted of a physical sexual assault can be and often is sentenced to many years in prison (and the fun of being listed on the internet afterward), when there may be very little or no physical injuries. The same person committing the same level of assault on other areas of the body would not be subjected to the same level. Why should they get more time in prison simply because they chose to touch the woman’s vagina instead of her arm - after all, they’re both simply parts of her body.

As for this exchange:

wring says:" I’ve not even joined in on the nasty comments about your dad and step mom. " to which Stoid replies:"Were you looking for points that you refrained from making nasty remarks when you coulda? Well, ok, you get a point. "

No, I’m not looking for ‘points’ from you. I am requesting that you treat me with respect, which I’d found lacking, and pointed out. I have listed sites, as well as anecdotal information from 20 years in the business. You, on the other hand have dismissed most posters arguments on the basis that “they don’t know what they’re talking about, my step mom does” and “I’ll be back with sites later”.

Officially, stoid, it’s later. time to put up your sites or admit that all you have is anecdotal remarks from Norma Jean and her friends.

I did a search on your step mom and came up with a couple of places that mention her, in connection usually either with the book you mentioned or her association with Coyote.

Here’s one:
http://www.gauntletpress.com/magazine/gauntletmag7.htm

which also include such topics as “Sex worker and Incest survivor, a healthy choice”, “you’re under arrest, now spread your legs”, and “bad luck at Lucky’s -caught between a rapist and the police”, and “HIV + Prostitutes have a right to work”

In my other searches on this topic (which you brought on, so please don’t complain about the amount of time you’ve spent attempting to defend your position) is this:
http://www.arts.deakin.edu.au/guymer/asw222sg/asw222sg_topic5.htm

which includes this:
“We chose the acronym WHISPER [Women Hurt In Systems of Prostitution Engaged in Revolt, (Giobbe: 1990, p. 67)] because women in systems of prostitution whisper among themselves about the coercion, degradation, sexual abuse and battery upon which the sex industry is founded, while myths about prostitution are shouted out in pornography and the mainstream media, and by self-appointed ‘experts’. This mythology, which hides the abusive nature of prostitution, is illustrated by the ideology of the sexual liberals …
(Giobbe 1990, p. 67)”

[Stoid]

*Originally posted by Eft *
**

But you’re a terrible advocate for your position. I’ve read this thread with interest but have seen nothing but anecdotal evidence from you. **

Apart from the Farley study, which I have addressed as being both limited to street walkers (the study says so itself) and have called into question anyway because of the way the researcher conducted herself, what evidence has been offered to refute what * I * have said? And even if we take that study at face value, what does it represent? Self-reporting from hookers. What have I offered? Self-reporting from hookers!

And now I ask you: what evidence, other than anecdotal, exists for the feelings and personal experiences of hookers? That is primarily what I am responding to at this point, and I made that clear. I told Jodi that I was not trying to change her mind about sex work itself, if she disliked it, that’s fine, and I thanked her for answering my OP query. My objection was to her statements that hookers do not, cannot care for their clients, it’s all just money, etc. Jodi happens to be one of those here who does NOT have any personal interaction with sex workers (the only one that has, if I’m not mistaken, is Wring – he also said that his only experience was with streetwalkers, whom he met in prison – why is that more valid than the variety of prostitutes I have met socially and in a political context? Can you explain that to me?) so I think I had a right to object to her making blanket statements about the feelings and experiences of prostitutes, when she knows not a one. Or do her assumptions, based on negative feelings, have more validity than my direct knowledge gained from actual prostitutes themselves, and if so, can you explain why that would be true?

**
But don’t expect people who’ve seen a different side of prostitution to instantly believe you just because your stepmother is an activist for COYOTE or a like group and has studies to support her position.
**

Really? Why not? Am I lying? Because if I’m not lying, then why wouldn’t I be believed?

And for the record, would everyone please stop telling me that the only prostitute I know or have offered as evidence of anything is Norma Jean. I have met, talked to, and socialized with dozens of prostitutes whom I met because of Norma Jean. I have talked to them about their work usually because the setting had something to do with their work or just because I was curious. I’ve met college girls doing it on the side, and middle aged women ready to retire, and everything in between. Thin hookers, fat hookers, black hookers and white hookers and male hookers and madams and dominatrixes. Some real expensive and others economy. And I’d like just a LITTLE acknowledgment that MAYBE this gives me a LITTLE bit of credibility. Maybe just a LITTLE bit more than most the people debating me on the subject. And if you won’t give me that, would you tell me why not? Because what does count in this debate, then?

And can you also tell me why Norma Jean, who is widely considered to be ** one of the foremost experts on prostitution in the world ** is being dismissed here as a not-credible source? Again, could it be because she is positive, rather than negative? Because while the Dopers may feel she isn’t a credible source maybe you can explain this partial resume:

**
Only sex worker invited to attend and participate in the current Surgeon General’s (David Satcher) conference on promoting responsible sexual behavior.

Speaker at the World Aids Conference in Geneva in 1998.

Regularly speaks at Universities and colleges all over including Stanford, Princeton, UCLA, USC, and Cal State Fullerton (speaks there every year, on the criminal justice symposium)

One of 5 NGO delegates to the UN Women’s conference in Bejing in 1995.

Co chair and co-organizer of the International Conference on Prostitution, hosted Cal State Northridge, which included law enforcement, health care workers, sex workers and acadacademics researchers, feminists.
**

Again, Wring meeting drug addict streetwalkers in prison is a more credible source the woman with this background because….? (Especially considering what I pointed out about his deeply flawed reporting skills, as demonstrated right here in this thread!) Could it be because Norma Jean’s view, the positive view, is unpopular? Ya think maybe?

**
If you’re going to argue persuasively, then you’ll have to acknowledge your bias and provde more balance. Maybe you feel balanced, but it sure doesn’t come across that way. **

Have you not read the multiple times I have acknowledged that there is a grim side to prostitution? Have you not read where I acknowledged Norma Jean’s bias, and that she acknowledges it, but bias exists everywhere on this topic…why is the only bias that is being called into question the * positive * bias? Why do I have to “show balance”, but no one else debating it does? And why would I * need * to *“show balance” * – is there any question in anybody’s mind that the negative side exists? Isnt’ my point here to try and get people to see that there IS a different side to it, and what I’m getting back is: “That’s aberrant: prostitution is grim and horrible and life-sucking and almost no one would choose it freely or feel good about it afterwards, your stepmother is a weird exception to the rule.”

As an advocate for a TRUTH that I know to exist, but which others are denying (without showing any balance of their own or willingness to believe anything that doesn’t fit into their world view) what exactly is it that you are expecting I should be saying here? Because it sure seems to me that by being an advocate for the positive view of prositution, balance is ** precisely ** what I am providing.

Factoids from http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html:

—Some researchers suggest that prostitutes, in general, suffer from ‘negative identities’ or lack of self esteem. A 1986 study by Diane Prince, however, found call girls and brothel workers had ** higher self esteem than before they became prostitutes. 97% of call girls liked themselves ‘more than before.’ ** (This study also examines suicide rates, and is often misquoted, referring to a statistic regarding call-girls. In the context of pathologizing prostitutes, some mistakenly report that 75% percent of call girls have attempted suicide, however, according to this study 76% of call girls considered (not attempted) suicide, along with 61% of non-prostitutes, and only 42% of brothel workers.)15

– The ratio of on-street prostitution to off-street (sauna, massage parlor, in call-outcall escort) varies in cities depending on local law, policy and custom. ** Whereas street prostitution accounts for between 10 to 20% of the prostitution in larger cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York, ** 3 in some smaller cities with limited indoor venues (or when indoor venues are closed down) street prostitution may account for approximately 50%.4

– Incidence of substance use and addiction varies widely. Studies in the United States found prevalence of substance use and addiction ranging from 0% to 84%, depending on the population being studied, with ** substance addiction relatively common among street prostitutes (c. 50%)6 but rare among women who work off the street. ** One study showed that nearly 50% of one population of women who used drugs did so before becoming prostitutes.7

– The U.S. Department of Health consistently reports that only 3-5% of the sexually transmitted disease in this country is related to prostitution (compared with 30-35% among teenagers). There is no statistical indication in the U.S. that prostitutes are vectors of HIV. ** Although a small percentage of prostitutes may be HIV positive, William Darrow, CDC AIDS epidemiology official, cites no proven cases of HIV transmission from prostitutes to clients ** .8
To sum up:

1. I asked why people hated sex work and sex workers.

2. People told me their reasons.

3. SOME of their reasons were based on inaccurate, incomplete information. While I have not and would not tell people how to feel, I don’t think there is anything unusual in my offering more complete, accurate information to people who don’t have it. Isnt’ that what “Fighting Ignorance since 1973” is all about?

4. Some of these others, who are still welcome to their opinion of sex work itself, chose to make statements about sex work and sex workers that were, again, inaccurate and incomplete. Not to mention actually rude. Again, I chose to step in and say: “No, you are wrong about that”. Again, fighting ignorance…

5. I have explained that I have a great deal of personal experience with sex workers. I am related to a woman who is acknowledged by highly prestigious organizations as an expert in the field of prostitution, with an international reputation, and I get my information through her. Yet I continue to be treated as though I’m talking out my ass, or worse, am outright lying. No one has yet explained to me why this makes any sense, or even why it is acceptable.

6. Finally, I have admitted I would prefer it if people did not have such a negative view of sex work in general and prostitution in particular. I think such views are destructive and counterproductive. I particularly object to the negativity if it comes from a place of ignorance about the realities of sex work. No one has yet answered the question: “what is to be gained from maintaining an attitude of disgust and hostility towards sex work in general/prostitution in particular?” On the other hand, the gain in a more positive view is first, legalization for prostitution. When you legalize it, you make it 1000 percent safer, and that is certainly a positive thing, yes? (I was talking to NJ this morning about a project she’s working on, “The NHI Project” – NHI is unofficial police slang/code for murdered prostitutes. It stands for “No Human Involved” – and this is what we want in our society? Not me, thanks anyway.)

I don’t think I left anything out…I’m sure I’ll hear about it if I did.

stoid
Done for now…I have work to do!

[Diane]

Some of these others, who are still welcome to their opinion of sex work itself, chose to make statements about sex work and sex workers that were, again, inaccurate and incomplete.

My statement “You have yet to offer a convincing argument that getting fucked for $10,000 is more honorable than getting fucked for $10. Having a dick put in you for money, is having a dick put in you for money, no matter how “high class” you claim to be.” is inaccurate and incomplete? How? Was is erroneous about that statement?

I particularly object to the negativity if it comes from a place of ignorance about the realities of sex work.

My statement again “Having a dick put in you for money, is having a dick put in you for money, no matter how “high class” you claim to be.” pretty much sums up the reality of prostitution, doncha think?

I’ll ask again. Are you a hooker Stoid? If not, why?

[Stoid]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diane *
**

I’ll ask again. Are you a hooker Stoid? If not, why?
**

Nope. Doesn’t appeal to me. I would be one of the people I referred to in the OP when I said it’s “certainly not for everyone”.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diane *
**

My statement again “Having a dick put in you for money, is having a dick put in you for money, no matter how “high class” you claim to be.” pretty much sums up the reality of prostitution, doncha think? **

No, actually, I don’t think so at all. It can be that simplistic, and it can be a great deal more complicated and nuanced than that. But you don’t really care one way or another, Diane, because you are not interested in understanding or really discussing anything, that’s pretty plain. You have addressed nothing I’ve said to you or to others, you simply pop in and come up with some “question” as an excuse to spit vulgar and inflammatory language at me about this topic.

You are very hostile to prostitution. You think it’s disgusting. I think you’ve made that abundantly clear. If you have something to add that is about anything other than you expressing this fact in the most unpleasant language you can muster, please share. But if not, don’t expect me to keep acknowledging your pointless hostility. I’ve given it all the acknowledgement I care to and don’t see any reason to give it any more.

Stoid

[ENugent]

Originally posted by Stoidela
And for the record, would everyone please stop telling me that the only prostitute I know or have offered as evidence of anything is Norma Jean. I have met, talked to, and socialized with dozens of prostitutes whom I met because of Norma Jean.

And this in a nutshell is why many of us feel that your perceptions of numbers of “happy” hookers is not statistically accurate. You’re just not going to find the miserable and unhappy ones at a COYOTE meeting - they’re over at the WHISPER meeting across the street. So we believe that it is easy to get an unduly rosy picture from the type of experience you have described. You have asserted that anyone who doesn’t believe you must believe that you are lying. I don’t believe you, and I don’t believe that you are lying. I do believe that it is not unlikely that you are mistaken, because the type of experience that you have described does not seem to me to be likely to give an accurate picture of the general experience of prostitution. For the record, I think Wring’s experience is probably skewed somewhat in the other direction, and I believe that the reality lies somewhere between the two of you.

I also support the legalization of prostitution, but I wouldn’t want my daughter to become one any more than I’d want her to become a model, because it seems to me that the working conditions would tend to make it easy to objectify oneself in ways that I find distasteful.

[wring]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Stoidela *
** why wouldn’t I be believed? ** Because after 5 days, 4 pages we’ve still not seen ** any verifyable site* for any of your information. Norma Jean may ‘know’ stuff, etc, but as has been seen, she is only considered to be an ‘expert’ by those who share her belief (and frankly, I’m the only one who linked to anything regarding her in the first place, you’re the one who attributes all sorts of stuff to her).

and ok, FTR , you know more than one prostitute, you say dozens. Good for you. I’ve known a couple hundred, and from many walks of life (most, of course at one point or another on the street, tho’ some started out as suburban moms on a fling), but of course, you don’t want to admit that my experiences, and more importantly, my sources that I’ve linked have any relevance or validity. You summarily dismiss all talk about street walkers 'cause they’re not representative. Frankly until you come up with source documentation of that oft repeated mantra, I suggest you stop. Unsourced quotes aren’t helping your case any, either.

By the way, as I’ve stated quite often on these boards, and, frankly, just above your most recent posting, I’m female, so the correct pronoun would be “she” or “her” rather than “he” or “his”. I work in the community with people who have been convicted - including prison, jail, probation, parole, their friends, family etc. (so some did not have convictions at all).

You claim Norma is a credible source because **you ** say so, you quote some one without a link, etc. Not evidence. The link you finally provided, shows a summation of information then a list of sources, some that are verifiable, many that are not. A quick read of some of it offers once again, the same self serving position that you have (one that struck me was the sauna club owner who’s workers were often injured, but they’re quick to point out it was domestic abuse injuries, not from the cops or customers - which, as far as I’m concerned goes again to the source of the dilemma - if a woman has self respect and is emotionally healthy, it is a very rare thing for her to ‘choose’ prostitution as her occupation - Norma Jean, of course, excluded) And, of course, it’s interesting to me that this site actually says that your assesment that ‘street walkers’ only constituted 5 - 10 % of prostitutes was wrong. But of course, since the “source” of that statement was (and I quote)4 “In the early 1980s, after the closure of massage parlors, street prostitution escalated to comprise a majority of the prostitution in Portland, Oregon (based on first hand accounts by local service providers and prostitutes).” I’d question it’s validity.

I notice, too that COYOTE is mentioned frequently as a “source” of the information on that site - hardly an evidentiary source. Kinda like quoting the “Reagan” site in all those political threads as proof of the demonic Democrats, and I know how you (and I) responded to that.

I also find this interesting: ‘One study showed that nearly 50% of one population of women who used drugs did so before becoming prostitutes.7’ - Gee, who’d have thought? IME, two of the more common ways some one begins to be a prostitute (there’s not a lot of subsidized training programs for that), are either because of an existing habit or some boyfriend/family member sends 'em out to earn $$ for them. Those, of course, often end up with a habit as well.

The source listed for the statement “small percentage of prostitutes may be HIV +” was in 1988. I believe I’ve linked to other, more recent sites that show this to be untrue today.

To sum up: Check your resources for information - they do not seem to add up.

You claim that you’re being treated poorly here - what I’ve seen is many, many people saying “show us your proof”, and now, 5 days, 4 pages later, you link to ONE page with questionable source info as your proof. That’s where the reaction is coming from. I agree, some people have gotten blunt to the point of rude with you (especially about your step mom and father’s relationship). However, you’ve gotten rude/snide right back, and in fact, started your OP with a " :rolleyes: ".
Finally, please, once, once again, explain exactly how you believe that this will happen: “When you legalize it, you make it 1000 percent safer, and that is certainly a positive thing, yes? (I was talking to NJ this morning about a project she’s working on, “The NHI Project” – NHI is unofficial police slang/code for murdered prostitutes. It stands for “No Human Involved” – and this is what we want in our society? Not me, thanks anyway.)”

Of course I don’t agree with the NHI stance - jeez. Some of those people were people I knew. While I may not have agreed with their life choices, I always wanted them to be safe so they could chose differently some day. One former prostitute annually asks me for help writing letters/ getting positive stuff done, and one year it was writing a letter to the editor personalizing a woman who’d been found dead, she (and I) were appalled that there wasn’t more of a hue and cry about her murder. Hell, I was outraged when one of my former clients was found dead of a drug overdose, and didn’t even have a ‘notice of death’ in the paper (let alone an obit).

[Stoid]

*Originally posted by ENugent *
**
And this in a nutshell is why many of us feel that your perceptions of numbers of “happy” hookers is not statistically accurate. **

Actually, until that last post, I hadn’t given any numbers of “happy hookers” - people were rejecting the idea that there were any at all to speak of, outside of Norma Jean. I never claimed that all were happy, I repeatedly acknowledged the fact that many are not, but no one seemed willing to acknowledge MY side of it, which is that many ARE.

Originally posted by ENugent *
**
I don’t believe you, and I don’t believe that you are lying.*

Well, I appreciate that.

*Originally posted by ENugent *
**
For the record, I think Wring’s experience is probably skewed somewhat in the other direction, and I believe that the reality lies somewhere between the two of you.
**

I can respect your feeling that way. It’s pretty much the fact of it. My beef with the reaction I’ve been getting is that the folks debating with me seem ready to believe anything negative without a second thought, but repeatedly reject the positive.

There’s plenty of both. And part of what I’ve said, and continue to say, is that much of the negative could be mitigated or even eliminated if we change our attitudes, and of course, our laws. I think it’s perfectly fine and understandable that people wouldn’t want do sex work themselves or have their kids do it. I understand completely the idea of intimacy between to people, sex being precious, etc. That is what my sex life is. I’m deeply in love, sex for me is absolutely an intimate thing that I wouldn’t be sharing with others. But it’s also been pure recreation for me, and I know for many, many others. But just because we don’t choose to participate doesn’t mean that those who do are scum, any more than people who have recreational sex are scum. And if we stop treating them like scum, their lives would improve, our society would be that much more compassionate. there would be less violence, less disease… on and on.

The point is that most people don’t really know much about sex work and workers EXCEPT the negative. There IS a positive, and it isn’t at all insignificant. If you think sex work is horrible because it’s pretty mucuh a laundry list of horrors, maybe if you understood that the laundry list of horrors is NOT representative of all prostitution, you wouldn’t think it was so awful, eh?

I appreciate your willingness to look at it with a less than hostile eye, though. That’s all I ask.

stoid

[ENugent]

*Originally posted by Stoidela *

*Originally posted by ENugent *
And this in a nutshell is why many of us feel that your perceptions of numbers of “happy” hookers is not statistically accurate.

Actually, until that last post, I hadn’t given any numbers of “happy hookers” - people were rejecting the idea that there were any at all to speak of, outside of Norma Jean. I never claimed that all were happy, I repeatedly acknowledged the fact that many are not, but no one seemed willing to acknowledge MY side of it, which is that many ARE.

Well, I think the debate has gone something like this:
“Many prostitutes are happy. My stepmother is an example.”
“Your stepmother is not a representative example, and most prostitutes are unhappy.”
“But I know many happy prostitutes.”
“But I know many unhappy prostitutes.”
“But why won’t you believe that many are happy?”
“Because you have a skewed perspective, and your stepmother is an [expletive deleted]”
ad infinitum

But the statements that “there are many happy prostitutes” and “most prostitutes are unhappy” are not inconsistent. Many feel that the latter provides a stronger basis for public policy, though. If you had data tending to refute the latter, people have indicated that they would like to know about it. But strong data supporting the former doesn’t mean a whole lot, because people are trying to understand the lot of the majority, not just anecdotes of those who may or may not be in the majority.

Those who say, “we don’t care about your anecdotes of happy prostitutes” aren’t saying it because they don’t believe the anecdotes, but because anecdotes cannot be used to illustrate the experience of the majority. And everything that you have said so far about who the majority is seems to consist of either “these are numbers that my stepmother told me about” or “these are the people that I know” (without regard to whether your or your stepmother’s experience is representative).

I appreciate your willingness to look at it with a less than hostile eye, though. That’s all I ask.

You’re welcome. Although I think there’s a number of people in this thread who are willing to look at it with less than a hostile eye - but they’re still applying a critical one.

[Diane]

Nope. Doesn’t appeal to me.

What exactly makes it unappealing to you?

I’ve given it all the acknowledgement I care to and don’t see any reason to give it any more.

Typical Stoid. You can’t show my statement to be erroneous, so dismiss it. Whatever. It really doesn’t change the fact that whether the price be $10,000 or $10, the women is still letting a man violate her body for a price. Period.

[Jodi]

. . . But I want to respond to every point STOIDELA raises.

First, however, I would like to remind you, STOID, that the question you presented is something like “Why don’t people like or approve of sex work?” It was NOT “Should prostitution be made legal?” – an issue I believe has already been tackled in other threads, though not by me. I have already stated in this thread that I could not care less about whether prostitution is legal or illegal – doesn’t bother me a bit, either way.

But having solicited people’s opinions on the general savoriness of sex work, and prostitution in particular, you have now attempted to argue that those opinions are wrong. Since opinions are almost always subjective, that’s a tough sell. I think your success rate speaks for itself, in that after four pages you have succeeded in changing no one’s mind.

Now, to the specifics.

You say:

At least I have anecdotal evidence from the actual people involved, you present nothing at all that proves you “know” what prostitutes and their johns are feeling. You just make pronouncements based on your opinion of their lifestyles.

I make my pronouncements based on the general understanding of the value of prostitution, everything I have ever read about the value of prostitution, and the evidence I have found on the Internet regarding it. News flash – the general weight of evidence is that prostitution is a bad thing, not a good thing. Moreover, if you choose to attempt to prove my opinions of it wrong – and you have – it is up to you to prove your case, or disprove mine. You have done neither. I grant that you have set yourself a tough task, because there is a notable dearth of statistics and scholarly work on the issue, but that is hardly my problem. Unverifiable anecdotal evidence is next to worthless, as you must know.

Yeah, what would a prostitiute know about her own life, right? Much less thousands of prostitutes that Norma Jean has known personally. I’ve known dozens. I’ll be sure to tell them when next we meet that their assessments of their own feelings and experiences is meaningless, they should go check someone else’s statistics, taken from other prostitutes reports of their feelings and experiences to see what they really feel and experience.

Please do not be disengenuous. The question is whether prostitution as a whole is a good or admirable thing and whether prostitutes as a whole enjoy what they do. Finding five or ten or fifty or 1,000 prostitutes who do means nothing when we are trying to assess the value of the entire profession as practiced by 2 million or so people. The problem with your anecdotal evidence, since you don’t appear to get this, is that there is (a) no way to verify it; and (b) no way (and no reason) to believe that the experiences of these few women are the same or similar to the experiences of most prostitutes. I may find 10 people who enjoy pulling the wings of flies, and they may really, truly enjoy it; that doesn’t mean the experience is generally enjoyable or worthwhile. (And please do not bother accusing me of equating prostitution with pulling the wings of flies; it’s that analogy thing again.)

And by the way, there is no “generally” in regards to experience.

Ridiculous. Going to the dentist is generally a bad experience. Do some people enjoy it? Undoubtedly. But not many. Getting presents is generally a good experience. Do some people not enjoy it? Undoubtedly. But not many. The fact that a few may have a contrary experience in no way invalidates the general experience of the many.

See, Jodi, that’s all you want to hear or consider. Surveys of the lowest strata of prostitution.

How would you have any idea of what I “want” to see or consider? I posted those figures because they are the ones I have found. This may be difficult for you to accept, because it will disarm your entrenched seige mentality (“they’re out to get us”), but I have no agenda here. I don’t care enough about the issue to have an agenda. Unlike, say, your stepmother.

No, I’ve said lots, thousands of women, are known to be happy with their choice.

You have posted nothing – NOTHING – that would tend to prove this is true. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

I have told you why and how I know this to be true, which is direct, personal knowledge of prostitutes that I have come to know through my stepmother.

You have entirely failed, however, in explaining why the experiences of those few should be taken as indicative of the experience of most prostitutes.

What’s your source? Why is my direct, personal knowledge of actual human beings engaging in this less believable than your pieces of paper reporting what others have learned from asking?

Are you serious? Because published reports generally carry indicia of trustworthiness – and, no, I don’t mean the mere fact they are published. Published reports and studies are fact-checked and are subject to scrutiny and criticism. If you publish something in a reputable forum, then you better have the verifiable facts to back up your assertions. And something more than “I heard this from a friend of my stepmom’s, who sent this e-mail.”

Why is my asking less valid than theirs?

Because they back up what they say. You cannot. You say “trust me,” and don’t get me wrong – I do. I absolutely believe that your stepmom and her friends just loved the heck out of prostituting themselves. As I have said, there is no reason to believe that is true of most prostitutes.

If I take down the information and publish it, will you accept that?

If it has more indicia of trustworthiness than “this one girl told me,” absolutely.

Really, I don’t get it. Why is some reseacher going out and asking questions of streetwalkers more valid that the reports of a woman whose entire life has been devoted to prostitutes, the legalization of prostitution, and education of the public about sex work?

It’s not inherently “more valid” but it is just as valid. And a draw is not a win in terms of changing people’s minds.

One more time: she’s not just sitting at home thinking: “Gee, I like it, it must be great for eveyone and I’ll tell the world that!” It’s much, much more than that and you keep dismissing it.

Actually, I don’t; I keep giving the value it deserves. I generally do not find “my stepmom’s friends say this” to be proof of much of anything. The fact that your stepmother is a prostitition advocate doesn’t change that either way.

She knows more than anyone you’ll ever meet about this subject because the cause of legalization and legitimization of sex work and the people who do it is her life’s work. She has been devoted to the subject for almost 20 years. But she’s not a legitimate source of information? Give me a break!

No breaks here, I’m afraid. Your stepmother appears to be a partisan advocate for the legalization of prostitution. And more power to her. You have given me NO REASON to value her opinion MORE HIGHLY than the opinions of those who think prostitution is indefensible. That does not mean I dismiss her opinion; it means I am not persuaded by it. You appear to wish to insist that I have to be, but of course I don’t.

I said you end your debates by saying, in effect “Well, if you still think X, Y, and Z, then you don’t know what you’re talking about.” To which you replied:

You’ve just summarized virtually every debate on this board.

No, I haven’t. You are only the second person I have ever run across in this forum who takes refuge in this obnoxious and indefensible means of “debate” – i.e., if you don’t agree with me, you don’t know what you’re talking about. It is up to you to prove that I am wrong, and this you have utterly failed to do.

Re: Melissa Farley is anti prostitution and was looking for negative information.

Your stepmom is pro-prostitution and is presumably looking for positive information. So?

She is a dishonest researcher.

According to Norma Jean. :rolleyes: This is one of those opinions I should just take as gospel because Norma Jean says so, right?

Tomorrow I will provide E-mails that NJ received from the associations in South Africa, where Farley did some of her research and misrepresented herself and went on to take the information she got from them and completely distort it.

Hmm. I certainly would be willing to look at anything tending to show that the information I am in part relying on is faulty. But I just checked my e-mail and nothing was there.

SEE: Hastings Women’s Law Journal Volume 10, #1 Winter 1999 Symposium Issue Economic Justice for Sex Workers - For their Own Good, The Results of Prostitution Laws as Enforced by Cops, Politicians and Judges. By Norma Jean Almadovar (that would be my stepmom, writing for the law journal).

See for what? Your stepmother argues in this article for the legalization of prostitution. She says nothing about it being an admirable profession or one worthy or respect, or why that should be so. In addition, and with respect to your stepmother, she fairly cites to works that are contrary to her position (which intellectual honesty would demand – points for Norma Jean), but she doesn’t realize that sometimes a comparison of those cites tends on its face to undermine her position. For the anti-prostitution position, for example, she cites a Report on Violence Against Women from the United Nations Women’s Conference. For the pro-prostitution position, she cites the Sacramento Bee. These are both legitimate cites, of course, but they are not on the same level, I’m afraid.

More to come.

[wring]

*Originally posted by Stoidela *
** Actually, until that last post, I hadn’t given any numbers of “happy hookers” - people were rejecting the idea that there were any at all to speak of, outside of Norma Jean. I never claimed that all were happy, I repeatedly acknowledged the fact that many are not, but no one seemed willing to acknowledge MY side of it, which is that many ARE.

**, you had, however claimed (and continue to do so here) that “many” and “most” were, and that “street walkers” were rare. You agreed that the street walker’s life was abysmal, but since you dismissed it as being unrepresentatively rare, it didn’t matter. Of course, you’ve still not been able to follow through with reliable stats that your assesment of the relative numbers are correct (the one you listed got those numbers from a single city, years ago, and questioned the massage parlor folk specifically, see my above post for the quote).

FTR, I’ve never accused you of lying (and don’t recall anyone else doing so either), but simply only looking at carefully selected information from less than reliable sources and frankly, without a critical eye. The link you provided gave summations of information, but attributed them to very limited studies (the above mentioned one, for example, another stat that you quoted was derived from speaking to exactly one massage parlour owner, for another example). These are not reliable sources.

I have admitted that there are (obviously) some prostitutes who say they are happy with their choice. We obviously disagree on the number of them, their motivation and other factors. I feel, strongly, that the great majority of those women who end up in prositution are not happy about it - they may be resigned, stoical and a host of other things, but not happy. I’ve based that on the hundreds that I’ve known personally, and their anecdotal info from their friends etc. You’ve based your assesment on those that you’ve met. You site the COYOTE stuff, I’ve linked to dozens of other sites.

You continue to say this would change if people would change their attitudes, but have yet to answer “how?” and “why”?

Also, you avoided my other challenge - if you contend that a woman’s vagina is her own to do with as she pleases, with no difference attached, would that not mean that some one who stuck his penis into her vagina w/o her permission, causing some bruising, should be treated the same as if he’d grabbed her arm roughly w/o permission, causing some bruising? Why not? After all, it’s just another part of her body, which holds no more magic, mystic, emotional response than her arm.

Interesting that you say this:

And if we stop treating them like scum, their lives would improve, our society would be that much more compassionate. there would be less violence, less disease… on and on.

since you keep on assuring us that diseases linked to prostitution are not significant.

Perhaps the fact many of us don’t know much about sex work except the negative might just be because most of it **is ** negative. And I, for one, hate to see people in the position of getting diseased, battered, robbed, degraded, murdered etc. I want it to not happen as much, I just don’t see that legalizing the trade that puts many **in ** that position would change the results. And you have completely failed to even suggest why it would be so.

[Norma_Jean]

Hi, please let me introduce myself- I’m Stoid’s wicked stepmother, Norma Jean the Whore. I use the word “Whore” not in any negative way, but as a declaration of who I am and how I see myself.
Stoid has been sharing with me bits of the ongoing debate regarding sex work, and since defending sex work and sex workers is what I have been doing for 18 years since I left the Los Angeles Police Department where I formerly worked as a CIVILIAN traffic officer for 10 years (in the 1970’s, the height requirement for sworn police officers was 5’10" and, unfortunately at 5’4" I was just too short to qualify). Lest someone think that this was not a dangerous job, consider that I was assigned to the night watch in Hollywood/ Rampart, from 6pm until 2, 3, or 4 am. I was given a regular patrol car to drive, had NO partner for most of the years I worked at night, and did not have a gun to protect me. I handled radio calls having to do with stolen cars, directing traffic at the scene of homicides, fires etc.
Interestingly enough, no one was concerned about the danger that I was in on a nightly basis back then, nor were they concerned about the serious psychological damage done to me by working with some very corrupt police officers. The crimes I witnessed them committing far exceeded the charges that the average criminal faced, yet the cops got away literally with murder. By the time I left the LAPD in 1982, I strongly felt that I would rather be an honest whore than continue to work in ANY capacity for the LAPD (by this time, the height requirement had been lowered and I qualified to become a sworn officer but chose instead to become a prostitute.
I would like to share the reasons I also became an activist, to educate people about sex work and sex workers, and why, although I personally could not care any less what anyone other than my loved ones think of me, I have spent what should have been the best and most financially rewarding years of my career trying to change the laws so that women like me are not treated like “NHI’s” (the unoffical police term for a murdered or raped prostitute, meaning “No Humans Involved.”
In my library, I have thousands of articles, copies of research done by academics from around the world, and can give you points of information about this topic from every perspective. It will take time to locate the references, so you must be patient. I don’t have a lot of time to spend on forums because there is too much work to be done in the field of advocacy and, as the president of a nonprofit international sex worker organization, there simply are not enough hours in the day to do it all. Plus I am in the middle of an art project for an upcoming exhibit of sex worker art (art created by sex workers- not necessarily about their work).
I am also forwarding the link to this forum to my peers online, and will ask them to join in the discussion, because if you don’t count this one voice as having sufficient credibility, perhaps you will listen if you hear from other sex workers. Thank you for your thoughts on this complicated and immensely important subject.
Norma Jean (PS that is my real name- and I never used an alias in my work as a prostitute because I was not ashamed of what I did.)

[Jodi]

STOIDELA says:

Also, let us not forget that a great deal of my argument here is that if we stop despising prostitutes and what they do, perhaps they wouldn’t be so damn miserable?

Where you have failed is in giving us any compelling reasons to stop despising prostitution.

Gay people used to (and sometimes still do) despise themselves and be miserable people. . . .

An inapposite comparison, since gay people do not choose to be gay, but by your own admission some prostitutes voluntarily choose to prostitute themselves. Why should I respect them for choosing to do something I think is distasteful and counter-productive, when they could refrain from doing it if they chose?

Well, Norma Jean sent me 25 pages of material from a sex worker discussion group. I’m obviously not going to post it all here, but I’ll share some pertinent quotes. (All of this is in response to Jodi’s objections that I only offer Norma Jean as any kind of proof that perhaps not all prostitutes hate what they do, etc. etc.) All the following quotes are from sex workers, primarily prostitutes. . . .

STOID, could it be that you truly do not see why this is basically worthless as proof? You have gone from “my stepmother says” to “here are what some other unknown people have told my stepmother.” Next time, why don’t you post an e-mail about a rumor that someone heard from one of their friends and sent your stepmother? Have someone explain to you why that’s not all that persuasive. In any event, and as I said before, you have posted NOTHING tending to show that the positive experience of your stepmother is shared by most prostitutes – is, in fact, the general experience of prostitution. Even if I accepted e-mails to your stepmother as proof of anything, they are themselves conclusory and tend to prove nothing. Example, from “Spinthecat”: “[The researcher’s] research methods are shoddy, although they obviously involve a lot of field work. Her reporting is unethical (biased), and her conclusions are illogical.” Guess we’re just supposed to take ol’ Spinthecat’s word for that, huh? :rolleyes:

I mean, the bottom line from your perspective appears to be “how can you assert that prostitution is not fabulous when I’ve pointed to all these women who say it is fabulous?” I’m sorry; that’s just not persuasive. And I’ll point out again that it is not only me that you have failed to persuade, and that, your apparently belief to the contrary, I am perfectly willing to be persuaded, since I don’t have an agenda on this issue at all.

Also, it bothers me because I see that people are frequently basing their opinions on an incomplete understanding of what prostitution actually is, how it works, who is practicing it.

Ah, yes, there it is again: If you don’t agree with me, you must not know what you’re talking about. Let’s see: What prostitution is: The selling of sex. How it works: The hooker provides a sexual favor or act in exchange for a sum of money or something of value. Who is practicing it: Apparently, some 1.4 million women, of whom 10% are streetwalkers (the low end), less than 5% are high-class call-girls (the high end), and the rest are in whore houses, escort services, massage parlors, and other venues. I think I’ve pretty much got a handle on all of those.

I believe that reviling sex workers is counterproductive, even destructive. There is nothing positive to be gained from such attitudes, while there is good to be gained in changing them.

What good is gained by society as a whole in embracing prostitution?

Jodi happens to be one of those here who does NOT have any personal interaction with sex workers . . .so I think I had a right to object to her making blanket statements about the feelings and experiences of prostitutes, when she knows not a one.

Kindly point out where I have made blanket statementsabout the feelings or experiences of prostitutes without referring to citation.

Or do her assumptions, based on negative feelings . .

My opinions – not assumptions – are based on everything I know and have read about the utility and value of prostitution. There are every bit as valid as your opinions, and if you cannot disprove their validity – and you apparently cannot – then you ought to at least respect them. Especially since you asked for them.

I have talked to [prostitutes] about their work usually because the setting had something to do with their work or just because I was curious. I’ve met college girls doing it on the side, and middle aged women ready to retire, and everything in between . . . And I’d like just a LITTLE acknowledgment that MAYBE this gives me a LITTLE bit of credibility.

I freely admit it gives you a LITTLE bit of credibility. Have you truly never figured out that “take my word for it” counts for very little around here?

SOME of their reasons were based on inaccurate, incomplete information.

Absolute, unmitigated bullshit. You have offered very little in the way of proof that the reasons people dislike prostition are inaccurate. I said:

"Sex work is reviled because (among other reasons):

1. It cheapens sex by making it a commodity that can be bought and sold.

2. It provides a counterfeit of intimacy and of a loving relationship which is in fact an illusion and will only be provided until the john maxes out his credit card.

3. It is almost always a dead-end profession, with no means of improving oneself, no upward mobility, and no honor.

4. It objectifies its participants, making the hooker nothing more than a pair of tits and a vagina, and the john nothing more than a cash machine.

5. It is physically, emotionally, and psychologically dangerous (to varying degrees) to both the prostitutes and the johns.

6. It goes against the widely-held (if not widely articulated) societal belief that the sexually promiscuous lack discernment, self-respect, and morals."

You have offered NOTHING tending to show that ANY of these reasons are not legitimate, or should not be legitimate. Instead, you focus on the point about “honor,” saying “my stepmom thinks its honorable!,” again with ZERO reason why SOCIETY should think it is.

While I have not and would not tell people how to feel, I don’t think there is anything unusual in my offering more complete, accurate information to people who don’t have it. Isnt’ that what “Fighting Ignorance since 1973” is all about?

Except you do not offer “complete, accurate information;” you offer nothing but anecdote and then are offended when people refuse to take it as gospel.

Some of these others, who are still welcome to their opinion of sex work itself, chose to make statements about sex work and sex workers that were, again, inaccurate and incomplete. Not to mention actually rude. Again, I chose to step in and say: “No, you are wrong about that”. Again, fighting ignorance…

Again, utter bullshit for the reasons given above. Your idea of “fighting ignorance” is “take my word for this.” Sorry.

I have explained that I have a great deal of personal experience with sex workers. I am related to a woman who is acknowledged by highly prestigious organizations as an expert in the field of prostitution, with an international reputation, and I get my information through her. Yet I continue to be treated as though I’m talking out my ass, or worse, am outright lying.

Nobody thinks you’re lying, STOID. They just refuse to act as if the last word on the issue is the Gospel According To Stoidela.

No one has yet explained to me why this makes any sense, or even why it is acceptable.

Because YOU are not alone an acceptable, verifiable source for the truth on this or any subject. Neither am I. Neither is WRING. EVERYONE is expected to back up their arguments with verifiable sources and facts. This you absolutely cannot do, and then you have the gall to act offended that people even expect you to!

Finally, I have admitted I would prefer it if people did not have such a negative view of sex work in general and prostitution in particular. I think such views are destructive and counterproductive.

Once again – why?

I particularly object to the negativity if it comes from a place of ignorance about the realities of sex work.

But you have not established that anyone here is ignorant about the realities of sex work. You choose to construe any disagreement with you as ignorance, but that, IMO, is your problem.

No one has yet answered the question: “what is to be gained from maintaining an attitude of disgust and hostility towards sex work in general/prostitution in particular?”

What is to be gained from it? The maintaining of the societal attitude that it is unacceptable to sell a sex act or to sell your body or to sell intimacy. What is to be gained by maintaining an attitude of disgust about bestiality?

On the other hand, the gain in a more positive view is first, legalization for prostitution. When you legalize it, you make it 1000 percent safer, and that is certainly a positive thing, yes?

When you legalize it, you also give it the imprimatur of societal acceptance, and that is not a postive thing, yes?

(I was talking to NJ this morning about a project she’s working on, “The NHI Project” – NHI is unofficial police slang/code for murdered prostitutes. It stands for “No Human Involved” – and this is what we want in our society? Not me, thanks anyway.)

Okay. This is a good place to bring up Norma Jean’s tendency to jump to unjustifiable conclusions, since she also cited the “NHI” thing in her article. In that article, she quoted ONE judge as saying a hooker “steps outside the protection of the law” and one feminist as saying “I don’t think a hooker has rights.” From those two quotes – and no others – she concludes:

It is generally accepted then, in such reputable circles, that prostitutes are without rights or standing before the law. (It’s “generally accepted,” huh? Jump to conclusions much?) It is therefore possible to conclude (apparently on the basis of these two quotes and no other evidence) that the deaths of prostitues are meaningless and thus it is not necessary to expend the energy to investigate their murders. (BIG jump there!) In fact, the murders of prostitutes are often referred to as “misdemeanor murders” or “NHIs” – meaning "no humans involved. (Often so referred to by whom? Certain piggish cops, or most cops? When we’re jumping to conclusions, who cares?) Terms like these make it clear that those of us who choose, for whatever reason, to engage in commercial sex are no longer considered part of the human race. (Yep, because if some pig in LA refers to a dead prostitute as a NIH, that must mean that nobody considers you part of the human race. :rolleyes: )

I mean, seriously, with conclusions like that, do you wonder that I dismiss some of your citations as not being defensible? I realize your stepmother is passionate about her cause, but I can’t imagine that indefesible conclusions and hyperbole such as that wins her many converts. If it does, good for her; but it doesn’t persuade me.

[Eft]

I said:

** But don’t expect people who’ve seen a different side of prostitution to instantly believe you just because your stepmother is an activist for COYOTE or a like group and has studies to support her position.
**

*Originally posted by Stoidela *
** Really? Why not? Am I lying? Because if I’m not lying, then why wouldn’t I be believed? **

For the same reason that the studies a tobacco company cites to indicate that smoking isn’t addictive won’t be believed: perceived bias. RJ Reynolds could come up with the best, most peer-reviewed, most objective study about smoking’s impact on the body and no one would believe it unless they already did. If I shouldn’t immeditely assume that any stories that the tobacco companies come up with to support their position are free of bias, then why should I believe you (or your stepmom by proxy)? I’m not calling you a liar–I have no opinion about your veracity. Actually, I believe that you believe in your veracity, which is probably why it’s driving you crazy that what you’re saying isn’t immediately accepted as true. But anecdotal evidence isn’t convincing, especially from any biased source and especially when you haven’t backed it up with anything written anywhere that people can check on. What if your memory is faulty?

Personally, were I trying to make your argument, I’d start with collecting as many cites as I could from different sources and weigh them against each other. I would create a bibliography so that people could read the studies and personal histories I’d drawn from and assure themselves that I wasn’t quoting out of context and hadn’t ignored half the data aviailable to me. I would try to keep my personal biases as low-key as possible. But that’s me.

[Jodi]

NORMA JEAN says:

I am also forwarding the link to this forum to my peers online, and will ask them to join in the discussion, because if you don’t count this one voice as having sufficient credibility, perhaps you will listen if you hear from other sex workers.

With all due respect to you and the work you do, I am unlikely to be swayed by the posting of further anecdotal evidence (“I’m a prostitute and I LOVE it!”) unless you can come up with evidence tending to show that a SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the prostitution community shares that view. A “significant portion” of some two million people is going to be many more than could possible post here. I will gladly review, however, any links or materials you can provide on why prostitution should not be seen as morally indefensible, and why society at large is incorrect in feeling, as a moral matter, that sex should not be sold.

[ENugent]

*Originally posted by Norma Jean *
Hi, please let me introduce myself- I’m Stoid’s wicked stepmother, Norma Jean the Whore. I use the word “Whore” not in any negative way, but as a declaration of who I am and how I see myself. … I don’t have a lot of time to spend on forums because there is too much work to be done in the field of advocacy and, as the president of a nonprofit international sex worker organization, there simply are not enough hours in the day to do it all.

Welcome to the SDMB, Norma Jean. But beware - some of us find that we get interested in what goes on here and end up spending a lot of time on the boards.

I would like to share the reasons I also became an activist, to educate people about sex work and sex workers, and why, although I personally could not care any less what anyone other than my loved ones think of me, I have spent what should have been the best and most financially rewarding years of my career trying to change the laws so that women like me are not treated like “NHI’s” (the unoffical police term for a murdered or raped prostitute, meaning “No Humans Involved.”

Please do. You may wish to review some of the many past threads in Great Debates where prostitution is discussed. You may also want to start your own thread in Great Debates if you want to discuss whether prostitution should be legalized and/or regulated, since this thread is directed more towards the attitudes of society towards prostitutes.

Reviewing the old threads will also reveal that SDMB’ers will frequently demand verifiable citations for assertions of fact, so don’t feel attacked or singled out if it happens to you.

[Norma_Jean]

My job as an activist is not to convince you that all prostitutes or even most prostitutes may like their jobs, however true it is. Infact, like our jobs (as I did) is not the issue. What is the issue is that whether or not a person likes their job, is in a dangerous profession or engages in sexual activities that society as a whole views as degrading, these are not sufficient reasons to take away our freedom and give us a police record.
As an adult, I find it wholly offensive to be considered incapable of self-determination, that I cannot chose work which I find to be satisfactory, financially or otherwise, by people who have never done this work and don’t know what they are talking about.
I never claim that all prostitution is glamorous, exciting or financially rewarding. I have worked hard for years to try to make people understand that it is being outside the law which makes the work dangerous.
Regarding the article I wrote for Hastings, I am sure you realize that there are word limitations placed on writers, and that though there are so many, many other articles to back up my assertions, I am not given the space in the journal to present all of them.
In writing the article, I did not intend to discuss the positive aspects of sex work, because that was not the focus the article I was asked to write. Neither is it the goal of the other sex workers (my peers) to try to convince you of something you will never acknowledge is possible.
My peers and I are extremely interested in issues on prostitution and sex work which relate to health, humans rights and our place in society (changing the laws so we don’t get arrested for selling that which we can legally give away to as many partners as we wish as long as there is no money involved).
As far as the way many of us feel about our work, we know from our interaction with researchers like Melissa Farley that there is no way some people will ever admit or acknowledge that for many of us sex work is an emotionally rewarding experience. And personally, it doesn’t bother me if they ever do. I know what my experience was, and I know that many other sex workers share my views. If you chose to listen to us, fine- if not, that’s not our problem.
To patently catagorize us as having no other skills, and assume we are all (or most) incapable of having loving relationships with our clients, that we are drug addicted, sad and pathetic is one of the most pernicious forms of paternalism around, and unfortunately it is most often exhibited by other women.

[Jodi]

Um, just to clarify and hopining I don’t sound hostile to NORMA JEAN:

When I said “with all due respect to you and the work that you do,” I mean the work done as an advocate as a cause you believe in. It should be abundantly clear that I have zero respect for prostitution as a profession.

[ENugent]

*Originally posted by Norma Jean *
My job as an activist is not to convince you that all prostitutes or even most prostitutes may like their jobs, however true it is. Infact, like our jobs (as I did) is not the issue. What is the issue is that whether or not a person likes their job, is in a dangerous profession or engages in sexual activities that society as a whole views as degrading, these are not sufficient reasons to take away our freedom and give us a police record.

As I said above, if this is the issue you wish to discuss, you probably should start a new thread for it. Whatever your job as an activist may entail, this particular discussion is supposedly about why society views prostitution as a degrading profession. In arguing that the views of society in this regard are misguided, your stepdaughter has made a number of references to happy, healthy prostitutes who take pride in their jobs, especially yourself. Several others have taken the position that taking money for sex cheapens both the act and the person, and that the profession is therefore intrinsically distasteful.

I personally would be particularly interested in whether you agree with Stoidela’s characterization of what the majority of prostitutes are (rather than what they ideally could be), and whether you have any supporting data for this characterization.

[Jodi]

NORMA JEAN says:

What is the issue is that whether or not a person likes their job, is in a dangerous profession or engages in sexual activities that society as a whole views as degrading, these are not sufficient reasons to take away our freedom and give us a police record.

This issue – the legalization of prostitution – may be the issue of your cause, but it is not the issue of this thread. I have already stated my opinion (or lack thereof) on the issue of legalization. I am not willing to be drawn into a discussion of it either pro or con, because I don’t care enough to devote any time to it.

In writing the article, I did not intend to discuss the positive aspects of sex work, because that was not the focus the article I was asked to write.

I agree, and I understood that, which is why I really didn’t understand why STOIDELA cited it in a thread that manifestly IS talking about the positive aspects of sex work, and whether there are any.

Neither is it the goal of the other sex workers (my peers) to try to convince you of something you will never acknowledge is possible.

It seems to me to be self-defeating to decide that you needn’t bother to explain something because people “will never acknowledge it is possible” anyway. But I imagine this conclusion is based on precisely what STOIDELA is discovering here – that many, many people viscerally disprove of prostitution and are unlikely to change their minds about the savoriness of the issue.

As far as the way many of us feel about our work, we know from our interaction with researchers like Melissa Farley that there is no way some people will ever admit or acknowledge that for many of us sex work is an emotionally rewarding experience. And personally, it doesn’t bother me if they ever do. I know what my experience was, and I know that many other sex workers share my views. If you chose to listen to us, fine- if not, that’s not our problem.

Again, we are not “choosing not to listen to you.” We are simply refusing to assume that you and your experience are the norm in prostitution.

To patently catagorize us as having no other skills, and assume we are all (or most) incapable of having loving relationships with our clients, that we are drug addicted, sad and pathetic is one of the most pernicious forms of paternalism around, and unfortunately it is most often exhibited by other women.

I strongly disagree with this. If you have other skills but choose to be a prostitute, I am going to think less of you (meaning, prostitutes) – not more – than I will of a prostitute who does that work because it is the only work she finds to do. This is because my personal opinion is that prostituting oneself is not an action worthy of respect. To find that the prostitute has other skills she can use and avoid prostitution makes me respect her less, not more. I continue to maintain that it seems silly on its face to say that most prostitutes have “loving relationships” with their clients. As I have already said, money-based relationships are rarely loving and the hallmark of a true loving relationship is that it is freely given – and given for free. I have never asserted that all prostitutes are drug-addicted, though it seems reasonable to me that sex work would be the perfect breeding-ground for addiction in those so disposed, both because of the availability of drugs and because of the desire for escape that some (not all) prostitutions must surely experience. And I am perfectly justified in deciding that what you do (as opposed to who you are) is sad and pathetic, or that the choices you have made are sad and pathetic. One of my dearest friends continues to stay with a man who treats her like dirt. I think that’s sad and pathetic of her, too. This is not “paternalism” – the desire to govern your actions for you – it is my opinion, which I have every right to hold.