Why do people hate sex work?

[Norma_Jean]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
And I am perfectly justified in deciding that what you do (as opposed to who you are) is sad and pathetic, or that the choices you have made are sad and pathetic. One of my dearest friends continues to stay with a man who treats her like dirt. I think that’s sad and pathetic of her, too. This is not “paternalism” – the desire to govern your actions for you – it is my opinion, which I have every right to hold. **

You absolutely have a right to your opinion. I hold the same opinion of those in the legal profession- law enforcement AND lawyers. I feel really badly for lawyers who take money to defend people who are guilty of some really heinous crimes, and I think that by doing so, such a person must be psychologically damaged for subverting justice. Some may claim. of course, that justice is served by giving even the guilty a fair trial, and if the defendant is found innocent, this is just. How anyone could live with themselves after watching a guilty person walk out of court because of the actions they as a lawyer took, I don’t know. Surely this MUST cause all sorts of emotional problems for the defender. Still, although I am admittedly biased against lawyers (with a few exceptions), I would not advocate the incarceration of lawyers for purposes of lifting their self-esteem.
Quote:
Again, we are not “choosing not to listen to you.” We are simply refusing to assume that you and your
experience are the norm in prostitution.
The way people think is fascinating… if I, as a prostitute (albeit retired) came to this forum and gave you a sob story of being beaten by some man until I agreed to become a prostitute, and told you that he hooked me on drugs, forced me to do obscene things with hundreds of men, and that because of this horrible situation I felt desperate, suicidal and completely lacking in self-esteem, I bet not one of you would question my tale. Perhaps I would get your sympathy, and you would all agree with me that prostitution was a horrible thing. You wouldn’t DARE tell me that perhaps my experience was not as bad as I thought, or that it was not the norm. You wouldn’t require tons of research showing how awful our lives are to convince you that I was telling the truth and not merely being a pessimist.

Yet, because I tell you that yes, there are women (and children) in prostitution whose lives are desperate, sad and pathetic, but that most of us do not work on the streets and that this sad experience is not ours- you demand proof from someone other than us prostitutes to verify what we are saying.

There is no question that the experiences of women who work on the streets are extremely different from the experiences of those of us who do not work on the streets. And, because we work so independently, we are almost invisible to the media, which tends to focus on the public aspects of sex work- the street worker. This also makes it difficult for researchers to contact us, because we are not easily found except by those we know and trust. Therefore, when research is conducted, it usually ends up with statistics for street workers and not prostitutes as a whole. I think my stepdaughter already noted the various ways in which off street prostitution takes place.

Many researchers rely upon the contacts they make of incarcerated women for their subjects. These women are most often the street workers, because they are the primary targets of agressive law enforcement. Of course, the police bust call girl rings every now and then (Heidi Fleiss) but they usually reserve their contacts in the off-street areas of sex work for use as informants, freebies, etc. To back this claim up, I have a number of sources- news articles and studies on police behavior, but they are not in my computer and I will have to look them up. Eventually we hope to post all of this information on our website, but it takes time and volunteers- of which there aren’t nearly enough. So, forgive me if it takes a while to look up and type in all of the information which corroborate these claims.

Lest you think that as a call girl, I look at street workers as my inferiors- I don’t. It is a different type of work and not one that I would want to do. I worked outdoors and in public areas for 10 years when I was on the department, and know that being in public on the streets is NOT for me. It is a much different experience in so many ways.

Regarding having other skills and still choosing to become a prostitute- many of us subsidize our artwork, writing, film-making, activism with sex work. Whether or not you think more or less of us for this is irrelevant. It doesn’t change the positive work experience that we have. It doesn’t effect the reality that many of us really care about our clients, that we don’t work JUST for the money- although I am sure that you wouldn’t go to work every day doing whatever you do unless you got paid. It is not a crime to like the work you get paid for and it is not a crime to dislike the work you have to do to pay your rent…is it?

There were some clients I enjoyed more than others- because their personalities were more suited to mine. There were days I didn’t feel like fulfilling men’s fantasies, but I went anyway because I needed the money. However, there were many more occasions I turned down appointments because I was busy writing or sculpting or being with my darling man (Stoid’s father) and didn’t want to get dressed up and go out and earn $500 an hour or so. I enjoyed being able to set my own schedule so that I worked when I wanted and did other things that interest me the rest of the time.

I was good at what I did- and I enjoyed giving pleasure. Certainly if someone does not view their sexuality the way I do, they would most likely not be good candidates for sex work. If someone regularly engages in any behavior which goes against their moral principles or values, they will no doubt end up with low self esteem. Clearly they shouldn’t do it.

Whether or not the discussion turns to the issue of decriminalization, of which I am most definitely an advocate, it is also my ‘job’ to educate people about sex work and give them a new perspective on this issue. I know that I will never be able to change some minds, because some people are inherently unwilling to believe that an intelligent, sane woman would willingly take money for providing sexual pleasure. So, can I prove that I am intelligent and sane? Well, I have a report from a Los Angeles Police Department psychologist stating that my intelligence was “grossly above average.” If you want I will look it up and give you the name of the Dr. and all that stuff. As far as being sane, I have California State certification that I am, and further, that I am not a danger to society. How I came by this is a long story.If anyone is interested to hear it, write me at my e-mail address.

[wring]

I wish to take exception mostly to two statements:

The way people think is fascinating… if I, as a prostitute (albeit retired) came to this forum and gave you a sob story of being beaten by some man until I agreed to become a prostitute, and told you that he hooked me on drugs, forced me to do obscene things with hundreds of men, and that because of this horrible situation I felt desperate, suicidal and completely lacking in self-esteem, I bet not one of you would question my tale. Perhaps I would get your sympathy, and you would all agree with me that prostitution was a horrible thing. You wouldn’t DARE tell me that perhaps my experience was not as bad as I thought, or that it was not the norm. You wouldn’t require tons of research showing how awful our lives are to convince you that I was telling the truth and not merely being a pessimist.

, That’s not what is happening. Sympathy for a tale of woe would happen (not in this forum, but in others), and no, we wouldn’t require proof. However, when a statement is offered as a general fact and not a personal experience, well then we look for empirical evidence. So, when the statement is made that many/most prostitutes are happy with their choice, that the choice is one made freely, that the only draw back is that there’s a risk of arrest and jail, well, then yeppers, we’re gonna ask for evidence. Not 15 (or 150 or 11650) people coming in and saying ‘yea, it’s true’, studies, references and the like. So far, neither you nor your step daughter, have linked to anything remotely proving your assertions. She opened this thread days ago and keeps on saying “I’ll have to get back to you on that”.

The next objection I have is:

*Originally posted by Norma Jean *
**To patently catagorize us as having no other skills, and assume we are all (or most) incapable of having loving relationships with our clients, that we are drug addicted, sad and pathetic is one of the most pernicious forms of paternalism around, and unfortunately it is most often exhibited by other women. **

Sorry, but I don’t recall anyone here catagorize prostitutes as having no other skills. Frankly many of the ones I’ve known have had tremendous sills in a wide variety of areas. In addition, I do not assume that ‘most’ are incapable of having loving relationships with the clients - just that it isn’t a likely outcome. Frankly, it’s not a likely outcome in many professions - my nephew waits tables at a restaurant. He has his ‘favorite’ customers where they’ve learned to enjoy a certain amount of banter etc, but many/most of his customers are just that - customers. I have no difficulty understanding that at times, some people connect. I also do not believe that for the majority of prostitutes that they would be able to claim a ‘loving relationship’ with most/all of their clients.

And as for the view of many/most being drug addicted etc, well, gee, there’s empirical evidence (in addition to the personal experience that I have in knowing a variety of prostitutes).

Let me also help you understand what we mean by evidence. To link to a story or paper written by a grad student, or a former prostitute, does not indicate evidence of anything except that person’s viewpoint and experiences. When you make statements like ‘prostitutes only account for 4% of the STD transmissions’, then we like to see a link to the actual CDC study (which would include the year, and the raw numbers involved). When you make statements about ‘studies show that x% of the prostitutes are street walkers but this much greater number are call girls, massage parlor, out call service workers…’, then we want to see the actual study (in the one single link that stoid gave, one of the studies cited, made such conclusions but the study was conducted in one -not major- city, by questioning former workers at a massage parlor that had just closed. That’s not evidence. In the same page was another claim that most of the violence to these non street walkers were due to domestic issues. But again, the evidence was limited to exactly one massage parlor, and the conclusions simply cannot be extrapolated to the population as a whole.)

I understand your position as an advocate. Please do not assume any of us have such an agenda.

[Jodi]

NORMA JEAN says:

You absolutely have a right to your opinion. I hold the same opinion of those in the legal profession- law enforcement AND lawyers.

And you in turn absolutely have a right to that opinion. The difference is that I never solicited opinions on why people don’t like the legal profession and, upon receiving honest answers, attempted to argue that people are not justified in feeling the way they do. That is what STOIDELA has done here.

Still, although I am admittedly biased against lawyers (with a few exceptions), I would not advocate the incarceration of lawyers for purposes of lifting their self-esteem.

Again, this thread is NOT about the legalization of prostitution. Sorry.

The way people think is fascinating… if I, as a prostitute (albeit retired) came to this forum and gave you a sob story of being beaten by some man until I agreed to become a prostitute, and told you that he hooked me on drugs, forced me to do obscene things with hundreds of men, and that because of this horrible situation I felt desperate, suicidal and completely lacking in self-esteem, I bet not one of you would question my tale.

I would not question that negative tale, just as I do not question your positive tale. Again, no one is accusing you (or STOIDELA) of making up your experiences or misrepresenting your opinions. But I would refuse to take the mistreated prostitute’s word that all prostitutes have such horrific experiences, because her word alone is not enough to establish that her experience is the general one. Same goes for you, I’m afraid.

Perhaps I would get your sympathy, and you would all agree with me that prostitution was a horrible thing. You wouldn’t DARE tell me that perhaps my experience was not as bad as I thought, or that it was not the norm.

Actually, if you asserted that your horrific experience was the norm, I would be perfectly willing to tell you that I expected you to prove that. Don’t get me wrong – I may not believe prostitution is generally the fulfilling life you experienced, but neither to I believe it is necessarily an unremitting hell on earth. I think it probably is both, on the ends, and something between in the middle. But I do NOT believe that it is GENERALLY a good experience, or a positive social contribution. So on the continuum, where happy hooker-dom is on one end, and depraved sexual slavery is on the other, I think the general reality probably lies on the whole more towards the negative end. How far towards the negative end, I don’t know; but I have seen nothing in this thread (or elsewhere) to convince me that prostitution is generally a positive think that provides a net gain to society.

You wouldn’t require tons of research showing how awful our lives are to convince you that I was telling the truth and not merely being a pessimist.

Yes, actually I would. See above.

Yet, because I tell you that yes, there are women (and children) in prostitution whose lives are desperate, sad and pathetic, but that most of us do not work on the streets and that this sad experience is not ours- you demand proof from someone other than us prostitutes to verify what we are saying.

I did not say the voices had to be those of anyone other than prostitutes; I said they had to be verifiable. You know – studies of a significant portion of the population of prostitutes tending to show that a significant portion of the sample thinks prostitution is a positive thing for them. As I have already said, I acknowledge that such verifiable information is hard to come by, given the dearth of serious study on the experiences of prostitution by those in the trade, but the bottom line is that without such evidence, you can never prove that prostitution is generally experienced as a good thing by prostitutes. It strikes me, furthermore, that you are in a perfect position to commission such a impartial scientific study which, if you were confident of its results, could only bolster your cause of legalizing and destigmatizing prostitution. Since you are being hamstrung by the lack of verifiable data (at least here), why don’t you collect some? (I don’t mean for this thread, obviously, but for your cause.)

This also makes it difficult for researchers to contact us, because we are not easily found except by those we know and trust. Therefore, when research is conducted, it usually ends up with statistics for street workers and not prostitutes as a whole. I think my stepdaughter already noted the various ways in which off street prostitution takes place.

But surely you see that if data on streetwalkers is the only data available, then that is what we must work with. Again, it seems you might be in a good position to authorize the compilation of data on off-street workers, or to help researchers who wish to contact them.

Of course, the police bust call girl rings every now and then (Heidi Fleiss) but they usually reserve their contacts in the off-street areas of sex work for use as informants, freebies, etc. To back this claim up, I have a number of sources- news articles and studies on police behavior, but they are not in my computer and I will have to look them up.

Please don’t trouble yourself on my account; I do not dispute this (though I do not admit it), but I don’t think it’s the issue here.

Lest you think that as a call girl, I look at street workers as my inferiors- I don’t.

I don’t. I just think you want to separate yourself from the data showing prostitution at the street level to be a negative experience by saying, “well, sure, but that’s the worst of prostitution.” And it may be; but the fact remains that you have no data on other forms of prostitution that would tend to show it is a positive experience. Or, at least, none that I have seen.

Regarding having other skills and still choosing to become a prostitute- many of us subsidize our artwork, writing, film-making, activism with sex work.

I would note that such an arrangement would seem to indicate that sex work is not considered a profession worth pursuing exclusively, even by these sex workers, who only use it to finance their “real” careers.

Whether or not you think more or less of us for this is irrelevant.

No, actually, it’s not, since – again – this whole discussion asked why people in general think “less” of sex work.

It doesn’t change the positive work experience that we have. It doesn’t effect the reality that many of us really care about our clients, that we don’t work JUST for the money- although I am sure that you wouldn’t go to work every day doing whatever you do unless you got paid. It is not a crime to like the work you get paid for and it is not a crime to dislike the work you have to do to pay your rent…is it?

Of course not, but that does not make the “work” valuable or worthy of respect. Especially when you have the option of doing something else if you choose.

Whether or not the discussion turns to the issue of decriminalization, of which I am most definitely an advocate, it is also my ‘job’ to educate people about sex work and give them a new perspective on this issue. I know that I will never be able to change some minds, because some people are inherently unwilling to believe that an intelligent, sane woman would willingly take money for providing sexual pleasure.

I am perfectly willing to admit that some intelligent, sane people would choose to prostitute themselves. I do not have to respect them for doing so, however. I do not have to give their “work” the same degree of respect I would give to other types of work that do not involve selling the the right fondle, kiss, suck, fuck, or generally use your body. I do not have to pretend I do not believe that they are engaging in a profession that dishonors them – and all women – and provides zero net societal benefit. In other words, I do not have to like it – and when someone asks my why I don’t like it, and I tell them, and they then tell me I’m wrong or misinformed to feel as I do, it is up to them to prove I am wrong or misinformed.

So, can I prove that I am intelligent and sane?

Listen, you don’t have to. If you feel you do, then you’ve misread this entire thread. I don’t think you’re stupid or nuts to hold the views you do; I just don’t agree with them.

[Norma_Jean]

[/quote]
, …we’re gonna ask for evidence. Not 15 (or 150 or 11650) people coming in and saying ‘yea, it’s true’, studies, references and the like. So far, neither you nor your step daughter, have linked to anything remotely proving your assertions. She opened this thread days ago and keeps on saying “I’ll have to get back to you on that”.

I apologize for that. I have not been able to get to the material to which she and I have refered. I am in the middle of a project and the files which contain the myriad of studies, references, etc. are packed away in boxes in my living room, waiting to be returned to their proper place on the shelves of my library. To find the particular documents for this discussion means I have to go through each of the boxes until I find the appropriate material and search through it for the information. My step child called me a few days ago for this information, but I couldn’t drop everything to search for it.

Quote- Sorry, but I don’t recall anyone here catagorize prostitutes as having no other skills. Frankly many of the ones I’ve known have had tremendous sills in a wide variety of areas.

If there were no references to this, I apologize for introducing it as though it had. I seem to remember that Stoid mentioned something about this and I haven’t had time to read all the threads from the beginning.
Quote’ In addition, I do not assume that ‘most’ are incapable of having loving relationships with the clients - just that it isn’t a likely outcome. Frankly, it’s not a likely outcome in many professions - my nephew waits tables at a restaurant. He has his ‘favorite’ customers where they’ve learned to enjoy a certain amount of banter etc, but many/most of his customers are just that - customers. I have no difficulty understanding that at times, some people connect. I also do not believe that for the majority of prostitutes that they would be able to claim a ‘loving relationship’ with most/all of their clients.
Why isn’t it a likely outcome? Prostitutes usually have a more intimate relationship with their clients than waiters, and we usually have a little more time to get to know our clients than the average ‘wait’ experience at a restaurant. Let us define what ‘loving’ means in this situation. Do I mean that we are ‘in love’ with our clients? Of course not- although some prostitutes do fall in love and marry their clients- but most don’t. Do I even mean that we ‘love’ them as a family member or close friend? In most cases not, but some clients do become close friends and we maintain long term relationships with them.
In comparing sex work to other work environments in which the worker primarily deals with other people as customers, clients etc., by its intimate nature, our work is more likely to result in feeling emotionally attached or drawn to the clients who we see on a regular basis and who become part of our lives. Contrary to popular myths, we do not all shut off our emotions so that we can do our job. Do we feel loving or compassionate about all our clients? Of course not. Why not? For the same reasons that other people in non sex work occupations do not like or care about everyone they ‘service.’ Unfortunately, there is no research which can show this to be the case, because so far, no funding organization has been willing to put up money for such a study. If there ever was to be a study on this, of course it would need to look at the people in other customer/ client oriented occupations, which usually never happens.

Quote’And as for the view of many/most being drug addicted etc, well, gee, there’s empirical evidence (in addition to the personal experience that I have in knowing a variety of prostitutes). ’

The empirical evidence you refer to is research which used primarily street workers as subjects, and yes, there is overwhelming evidence that many/ most of these men and women are drug users. There is a great deal of evidence that not a few athletes are drug abusers/ addicts, as there are also a significant number of addicts/users/ abusers to be found in the entertainment industry (music/movie/television). Since there has been little, if any, research on these populations- to my knowledge- there are no statistics to refer you to. Perhaps there is no interest in studying these groups because no one views their ‘work’ as ‘sad and pathetic.’
Quote’ Let me also help you understand what we mean by evidence.’

I know what is meant by evidence. Thank you though, for your offer to help me understand. As an activist, I have been involved with many research projects and researchers. There is a very heated discussion on the sex worker internet forums about current HIV/AIDS research being conducted on sex workers in Nairobi. I wish I could give you access to this discussion, but it is only for sex workers and our activist allies. There is much concern over the way the research is being conducted- and the fact that the researchers are complaining that they aren’t getting the sample size they need from the sex workers because the sex workers are having too much safe sex…

When researchers look for prostitute subjects, they approach the group which is easiest to reach and the most likely to cooperate. Street workers are (a) the most visible to the public (b) most likely to be arrested and therefore more easily found in local jails © more likely to fit the profile needed for the study’s objectives. Off street prostitutes are more difficult if not impossible to locate for studies, less likely to cooperate with researchers (why? because this is an illegal business and the fewer outsiders who know what you do or how you do it, the less likely you are to unexpectedly encounter a law enforcement agent at your door) and they are usually not caught up in the life and death struggle of a drug addiction. Do some of them smoke pot or snort cocaine on occasion? I am sure they do, just as hundreds of thousands of non sex workers do. Many of them probably drink alcohol and smoke, just like millions of other Americans so. Is participation in these vices inherently connected to the profession of prostitution? No more than it is in the sports profession or show business.

How do we prove this? For the above reasons, those of us who do not work on the street are seldom included in the statistical research from which empirical evidence is drawn. When researchers (?) like Melissa Farley use fraud to gain access to sex workers as she did in South Africa, and she sets out to ‘prove’ her anti-prostitution biased theories, how credible is her ‘empirical evidence’? Yet, her study is widely quoted and used as proof of our ‘sad and pathetic’ lives. When we contacted the media to expose her fraudulent research methods, no one from the media cared to ask her if it was so.

There are of course credible researchers out there with whom we cooperate. The Rand Corporation did a study a few years ago which was never published because their ‘client’ (the government) decided not to go any further with the information. It didn’t confirm their worst speculations about sex workers and AIDS, especially the non-street workers, so it was useless for their purposes. And by the way, some studies conducted on prostitutes in the past have used fewer than 150 subjects to form their conclusions. One study done years ago used only 10 subjects as the basis for their postulations on sex work.

[Diane]

It appears that all these days and pages later, Stoid and now Norma Jean have yet to offer verifiable data to back their claims. I also appears that they don’t understand how their personal experience does not qualify them to speak for the entire prostitution industry.

Could this thread have been better placed in IMHO as it has been an argument of opinions and not fact?

[wring]

Re: looking for evidence

*Originally posted by Norma Jean *** I apologize for that. I have not been able to get to the material to which she and I have refered.

**and

wring : Quote’ Let me also help you understand what we mean by evidence.’ Norma Jean replied: I know what is meant by evidence. Thank you though, for your offer to help me understand. "

Actually, I was trying to help you out specifically with what is generally accepted as evidence here If you intend to come back here and type a bunch of quotes from papers in a box somewhere, that does not include verifiable facts (like names of authors of studies, where the study was done, the methodology involved, where it can be viewed on line hopefully or at a library) it will go into the stack of “ok, this is what you say”.

You go on to explain at length that all the stats we’ve supplied just refer to street walkers, and so will misconstrue the real picture, and to be totally accurate, we have to include the people who don’t end up being involved in studies. And then you explain how it is that we won’t really be able to get at that information for all those assorted reasons (except of course the one study that you claim was done, but, naturally, no one can verify) The problem is you want us to believe that the street walkers are only the tip of the iceberg, without any of us being able to verify how much more of the iceberg is left. Can’t you see why that’s an issue?

If I see 40 people in the city and most seem to be wearing red, I’ll make statements like “gee, most seem to be wearing red”. and you want me to believe that theres an additional 400 people who are hiding, but you know they are there, I’m still going to want to have something more than just your word that they exist in the significant numbers that you claim.

wring says: Sorry, but I don’t recall anyone here catagorize prostitutes as having no other skills. Frankly many of the ones I’ve known have had tremendous sills in a wide variety of areas.

Norma replies: If there were no references to this, I apologize for introducing it as though it had. I seem to remember that Stoid mentioned something about this and I haven’t had time to read all the threads from the beginning.

mischaracterizations have happened. It clutters things up.

RE: “loving relationship” - let’s try this again. Perhaps the waiter scenario was not the best I could have chosen.
Many people who work in human services have pleasant relationships with those they serve. Certainly some are more pleasant than others, some are more enjoyable than others. Naturally, there wouldn’t be the same level of “love” as one would have in one’s private life (as a matter of fact in most human service fields we are prohibited from ‘serving’ our loved ones or ‘getting into relationships’ with those we serve - it tends to get problematical with insuring that client’s needs are paramount).

When I spoke of the ‘loving relationship’ I was referring to claims that your step daughter made, about workers developing loving relationships with their clients. I used words like I doubt that many/most of sex workers develop such a relationship with many/most of their customers. Frankly there just ain’t enough hours in the day to do that, and you seem to agree with that assesment, when you drop the ‘many/most’ down to some and sometimes. I don’t say it’s impossible. To get to numbers - if your customer pool contains 50 names, I’d doubt that much more than a few would be what you’d call ‘loving relationships’. which brings it totally out of the ‘many/most’ category and right on down to the ‘rarely’ that I believe. I’d think it’d be tough to establish and maintain such relationships, while having enough time to have your own life etc. You are free, of course to disagree.

Certainly people other than sex workers have substance abuse problems, no one has ever denied that. Of course, some of the links I saw, showed anywhere from 50- 70% having SA problems (that’s more, by the way, then smoking a joint every other weekend). And no other profession (that I’ve seen in research) is anywhere near that (since, SA consist of such a small portion of the population in the first place). Now, I’d say, too, though that it’s tough to call if the SA problem develops because of the occupation or the occupation develops to support the SA problem, but it does seem to happen (at least in the US) that there’s a frighteningly high percentage of SA’ers amongst sex workers.

However, since you and your step daughter keep on claiming without back up, that street walkers are only the tip of that iceberg, and ‘trust me’ there’s tons more who aren’t, we can argue about that point all night long without any change.

And by the way, some studies conducted on prostitutes in the past have used fewer than 150 subjects to form their conclusions. One study done years ago used only 10 subjects as the basis for their postulations on sex work.

which is why, **Norma Jean ** that we’re looking for source documentation, so we can evauate the claims. The link your step daughter provided numbers from sources that were nearly 20 years old, but proudly proclaimed that those numbers “reflect current trends”. As I mentioned before, my personal favorite was the “stat” about physical abuse of massage workers coming mainly from their domestic situations. When you followed down to their reference, you saw that the “stat” came from speaking to **one ** person who’d run a massage parlor and what she recalled about the workers and their lives. (“Rebecca Rand, who owned a sauna for nearly twenty years, claims that the prostitutes who worked in the sauna were abused in much the same circumstances that other women were, that is, by domestic partners and others in their personal lives.”) Proof? nope, anectdote.

[Norma_Jean]

But surely you see that if data on streetwalkers is the only data available, then that is what we must work with. Again, it seems you might be in a good position to authorize the compilation of data on off-street workers, or to help researchers who wish to contact them.

How I wish we could get such research funded. It is one of the reasons I founded a nonprofit organization… however, such a positive premise has little chance of finding funding… unless you know of a grant we can apply for where we have a chance in hell of getting money for such a study…

I would note that such an arrangement would seem to indicate that sex work is not considered a profession worth pursuing exclusively, even by these sex workers, who only use it to finance their “real” careers.

I suppose that would be true of waitress/waitering and other such transitory employment- those who use such work to finance their lives while they wait for their big break in show biz, etc. I doubt that many people who work in the janitorial profession hope to continue cleaning toilets all their work lives. It doesn’t make their work less valid or mean that they can’t take pride in their work while they do it.
Some in sex work do this work for their entire working lives. However, just like other people, we can tire of this work and want to pursue other interests. Like athletes, as one ages it takes more and more energy to maintain ones appearance/ strength to continue being a prostitute, exotic dancer, porn actor, etc.No matter what one does for a living, it is wise to have other interests on which one can 'fall back" if they lose their job, their license, or they become disabled through work related injuries. Construction workers can only work for as long as they retain their ability to lift, hammer, etc.

Of course not, but that does not make the “work” valuable or worthy of respect. Especially when you have the option of doing something else if you choose.

Respect and placing a value on something are subjective concepts. What one person thinks is valuable and worthy of respect another person can find objectionable and worthless.

I do not have to pretend I do not believe that they are engaging in a profession that dishonors them – and all women – and provides zero net societal benefit.

Can you prove that my work dishonors all women? In what way does it dishonor them? Some people claim that homosexuals dishonor God, because their sexual behavior is deviant. Are these people right? Because you think you don’t receive any benefits from my work, do you count as all of society? Believe it or not, sex workers are part of society, too, as are our clients.

What do you consider a societal benefit? Do you not think that bringing pleasure and joy to another human being is worthwhile? Do you believe that everyone has the same opportunity to find a companion, male or female, who will bring these wonderful things into a noncommercial relationship? Do you think that those who cannot, for whatever reason, find a companion/ partner/lover have no right to seek a facsimile of a satisfying relationship wherever they can- provided their partner is adult and willing?
Must a disabled person, who cannot socialize in customary ways, live without sexual release and no physical contact with a person of their preferred sexual orientation? How about widowers and the newly divorced? Should they live without sexual/ intimate companionship while they are going through a period of emotional upheaval and are not ready to take on a ‘more meaningful’ relationship? Surely having someone to talk with and to comfort one through this period of grief and loneliness is a positive and may help speed up the healing process.

Elderly men who are widowed or divorced are unlikely to find sexual companionship with women their own age, and unless they are rich, they most likely will not find younger candidates to whom they (the elderly) might be attracted. Believe it or not, especially for men the process of growing older does not necessarily reduce or eliminate the need for sex or intimate human contact. And, I am sure you are aware of recent studies in the news which show that having sex on a regular basis as on ages prolongs live. Would you say that a commercial service which can prolong life to those who have no ‘legal’ or noncommercial sexual partners is not of benefit to society?

On a pain/pleasure scale of all possible human interactions, if the worst thing I can do to my fellow man (or woman) is to murder them, surely one of the best things I can do is to help them achieve an orgasm? If doing so - for money- dishonors all women, I fail to see how. If I engage in sex with thousands of men (no men I am in love with or want to have a relationship) but I don’t accept gifts from them, no harm no foul… but when I agree to bring pleasure to a man in exchange for cash, this somehow effects the good name and reputation of all other women?

Anyway, I’ve got to get back to my project and most likely won’t be posting responses for a while. As much as it has been thrilling to banter with you, my responsibilities are calling. I’m really sorry all of you can’t meet the thousands of men and women in sex work with whom I work, so that you would know how inaccurate is the research you quote and to which you have access. Perhaps someday, there will be grant money available to us to conduct research which refutes the likes of Melissa Farley’s so called study. I am afraid that you, Jodi, will never be convinced no matter what how much empirical evidence you are provided with which contradicts your beliefs. And having been a prostitute (and traffic officer), I will never be convinced that my second profession provided far more societal benefits than my first did- and that it was infinitely more emotionally rewarding than working in a societally approved and accepted job. Thank you for allowing me to share my thought and first hand observations with you.

{fixed coding. --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 01-11-2001 at 05:18 PM]

[Diane]

Do you not think that bringing pleasure and joy to another human being is worthwhile?

Or to quote Stoid, “exploit”.

[Jodi]

NORMA JEAN says:

How I wish we could get such research [of job satisfaction in non-street prostitution] funded. It is one of the reasons I founded a nonprofit organization… however, such a positive premise has little chance of finding funding… unless you know of a grant we can apply for where we have a chance in hell of getting money for such a study…

So far as I know, being a non-profit organization is not inconsistent with purchasing services, from a catered lunch to posters to research studies, in furtherance of that organization’s goal. If my organization had members who made up to 10 grand a night, I think I’d start by soliciting funds from them. Just a suggestion.

I suppose that would be true of waitress/waitering and other such transitory employment- those who use such work to finance their lives while they wait for their big break in show biz, etc. I doubt that many people who work in the janitorial profession hope to continue cleaning toilets all their work lives. It doesn’t make their work less valid or mean that they can’t take pride in their work while they do it.

True. It does indicate, however, that society as a whole places a lower societal value on that work (necessary or not, and honorable or not). Jobs that people strive to “move up out of” are not generally considered great jobs. You apparently think prostitution is a great job (or can be); if it’s so great, why do people try to leave it, or try to make some other profession their “real” career?

Respect and placing a value on something are subjective concepts. What one person thinks is valuable and worthy of respect another person can find objectionable and worthless.

Obviously. This entire thread attempted to divine why society as a whole disrepects prostitution and places a low value upon it. You are a perfect example of this – you deem prostitution to be valuable and worthy of respect; the majority of the society you live in appears to find it objectionable and worthless. (As do most other societies as well, so far as I know. Certainly I can think of no society where prostitution is considered admirable and prositutes are highly prized.)

Can you prove that my work dishonors all women? In what way does it dishonor them?

It dishonors them by reducing them to nothing more than parts that can be used by strangers for sexual gratification. It dishonors them by exhalting their appearance and body (sexual arousers) over their worth as thinking, feeling people, capable of more than spreading their legs or opening their mouths. It dishonors them by encouraging the objectification of all women and the furtherance of the idea that the value of women is found in their sexuality. Hey, you asked.

Some people claim that homosexuals dishonor God, because their sexual behavior is deviant. Are these people right?

Not in my opinion, but then, as I’ve already said, homosexuals do not choose to be gay – do not choose to put themselves beyond the pale of society’s acceptance.

Because you think you don’t receive any benefits from my work, do you count as all of society?

I see no benefit provided by prostitution to society as a whole. It does not fill some pressing need; it does not provide a necessary service such that society as a whole would suffer if that service were taken away.

Believe it or not, sex workers are part of society, too, as are our clients.

Yes, I realize this. Drug dealers are part of society, too; that does not mean the sale of recreational drugs (legal or not) provides some grand benefit to society as a whole.

What do you consider a societal benefit?

A positive result that inures to society as a whole. You know, like an educated populace (teachers) or a safe populace (law enforcement) or more free time for work or play (service industries). The only thing prositution provides is a more relaxed populace, and there is no indication why the populace could not attain that same level of relaxation for free, and without exploitation.

Do you not think that bringing pleasure and joy to another human being is worthwhile?

By selling sex to them? Absolutely not.

Do you believe that everyone has the same opportunity to find a companion, male or female, who will bring these wonderful things into a noncommercial relationship?

Yep, I sure do. “Sexual pleasure and joy” is available to every person for free, whether another person is involved or not.

Do you think that those who cannot, for whatever reason, find a companion/ partner/lover have no right to seek a facsimile of a satisfying relationship wherever they can- provided their partner is adult and willing?

See, the problem is that this is exactly what you do – you sell a “facsimile of a satisfying relationship” – a fake – in the place of the real thing. It’s pathetic and sad. I have never spoken about what people have the “right” to do, though you obviously do NOT have the right to “seek a facsimile of a satisfying relationship,” if by that you mean selling sex for money, since it is illegal.

Must a disabled person, who cannot socialize in customary ways, live without sexual release and no physical contact with a person of their preferred sexual orientation? How about widowers and the newly divorced? Should they live without sexual/ intimate companionship while they are going through a period of emotional upheaval and are not ready to take on a ‘more meaningful’ relationship? Surely having someone to talk with and to comfort one through this period of grief and loneliness is a positive and may help speed up the healing process.

HA! Listen, you go out and sow the seeds of love and understanding among the disabled, the lonely, and the grieved to your heart’s content. Just don’t act like you’re performing acts of altruism when you charge for it by the hour. “Surely having someone to talk with and to comfort one through this period of grief and loneliness is a positive” – c’mon. Affection should not be sold. That’s the point. Or do you care so much and work so hard for those who can’t afford you? The world is full of the sad, lonely, and heartbroken; prostitution, almost by definition, only concerns itself with those who have money.

Would you say that a commercial service which can prolong life to those who have no ‘legal’ or noncommercial sexual partners is not of benefit to society?

Yep, I sure would. This is back to the “if men don’t have sex their heads explode” argument, only for “head explode” you’ve substituted “die sooner.” As I have already said, those who cannot procure sexual relief with others can always supply it themselves. Lots of people, of all ages, do just that.

On a pain/pleasure scale of all possible human interactions, if the worst thing I can do to my fellow man (or woman) is to murder them, surely one of the best things I can do is to help them achieve an orgasm?

Hand 'em out like breath mints, I don’t care; just don’t charge for it.

If doing so - for money- dishonors all women, I fail to see how.

I frankly cannot explain it any better than I already have.

If I engage in sex with thousands of men (no men I am in love with or want to have a relationship) but I don’t accept gifts from them, no harm no foul… but when I agree to bring pleasure to a man in exchange for cash, this somehow effects the good name and reputation of all other women?

Yep. Because prostitution as a profession encourages the objectification of women and reinforces that their value is based on appearance and sexuality. I would add, parenthetically, however, that society does not smile on the sexually promiscuous, either, however; so I doubt many would give some sort of merit badge to a woman who engages in sex with thousands of men, but does it for free.

Anyway, I’ve got to get back to my project and most likely won’t be posting responses for a while. As much as it has been thrilling to banter with you, my responsibilities are calling.

Okay. Well, thank you for playing.

I’m really sorry all of you can’t meet the thousands of men and women in sex work with whom I work, so that you would know how inaccurate is the research you quote and to which you have access. Perhaps someday, there will be grant money available to us to conduct research which refutes the likes of Melissa Farley’s so called study.

Until then, however, we’ll just have to go with what we have.

I am afraid that you, Jodi, will never be convinced no matter what how much empirical evidence you are provided with which contradicts your beliefs.

Huh. You have absolutely no basis to say this. Unlike you, I have absolutely no agenda regarding prostitution, and really don’t care much about it either way (though I’m sure you’ve gathered I have no respect for it as an institution or a profession). Since you have provided zilch in the way of empirical evidence, you comfort yourself with the belief that I wouldn’t be convinced by it anyway. Of course, that doesn’t make it so.

Thank you for allowing me to share my thought and first hand observations with you.

You’re welcome. Thanks for dropping by.

[Norma_Jean]

Actually, I was trying to help you out specifically with what is generally accepted as evidence here If you intend to come back here and type a bunch of quotes from papers in a box somewhere, that does not include verifiable facts (like names of authors of studies, where the study was done, the methodology involved, where it can be viewed on line hopefully or at a library) it will go into the stack of “ok, this is what you say”.

Of course the papers in a box are of the nature you seek. Entering this discussion was not my idea- if I had the time to engage in debates like this, I would certainly have come prepared. I was most grateful that my stepkid wanted to take up my cause, but was not prepared to get her all the material she needed as quickly as she wanted it.

And then you explain how it is that we won’t really be able to get at that information for all those assorted reasons (except of course the one study that you claim was done, but, naturally, no one can verify) The problem is you want us to believe that the street walkers are only the tip of the iceberg, without any of us being able to verify how much more of the iceberg is left.

What I am trying to tell you is that the studies to which you refer have not, for the reasons stated, included us. There are other studies which have, or which at least refer to our existence. Granted they are few, because if I were a researcher wanting to prove that all sex workers are drug addicted, AIDS infected people, I surely would not want to have people like me as subjects. I would go for the stereotypical street worker who was easier to access than the women who are under the radar.
It seems that the information that needs verifying (through credible and accessible research reports) are statistics regarding the percentages of sex work venues, not studies which confirm the positive aspects of sex work- am I correct ?
RE: “loving relationship” - you seem to agree with that assesment, when you drop the ‘many/most’ down to some and sometimes… I’d think it’d be tough to establish and maintain such relationships, while having enough time to have your own life etc. You are free, of course to disagree.

And I do disagree. I don’t think it is rare at all, and I think that the number of us who do find some if not most of our clients to be people whose company we enjoy and with whom we have a ‘loving’ relationship is more rather than less. Of course we do not spend all our non-work time with them- but I don’t spend all my non-work time with my close friends and family, either (except my husband). It doesn’t mean I don’t have a loving/ caring relationship with them, I just don’t need to be with them all the time to prove it.

Certainly people other than sex workers have substance abuse problems, no one has ever denied that. Of course, some of the links I saw, showed anywhere from 50- 70% having SA problems (that’s more, by the way, then smoking a joint every other weekend). And no other profession (that I’ve seen in research) is anywhere near that

I contend that research has not been conducted on professions such as sports and the entertainment industry… do you know of any? Have there been any studies to see how many attorneys are SA’s? I know that there have been published reports on physicians and nurses who end up as substance abusers, and I recall that the number was higher than expected… I don’t have any of these reports, though, so I don’t claim this as gospel fact.

For street prostitution, I would think that 50-70% is about right. Not for those of us off street. Although I am not claiming this is true of my peers- I’ve never smoked a joint in my life, nor a cigarette, nor taken any illicit substance, it was never anything that interested me. I don’t drink because I am too vain. Alcohol drys up a woman’s face, and I hate being around people who get drunk. I saw too many examples of drunks when I was on the LAPD (the cops). Not that I don’t have my addictions- my drug of choice is the caffeine in Pepsi One (I hate coffee), and I can’t go near stores which carry Macintosh computer and software products without having palpitations and if I get into an art supply store- don’t expect to hear from me for hours. I could spend a 50 million dollar lottery prize on electronic gadgets and books.

However, since you and your step daughter keep on claiming without back up, that street walkers are only the tip of that iceberg, and ‘trust me’ there’s tons more who aren’t, we can argue about that point all night long without any change.

Agreed. However, while waiting for the source documentation, why don’t you do an engine search for escort services online? And if you live in a big city, check out the yellow page ads for same, and massage parlors. I am sure you are aware of the other forms of prostitution, such as brothels, massage parlors, escort services, incall and outcall though private ads, bar girls, call girls, etc. so the fact that we exist is not in question, right? Just how many of us there are in those venues?

This weekend I will try to go through the files and find the source documentation for you. Here it is 2:30 in the afternoon and I have spent all day responding to threads rather than doing my work! Shame on me!

[Diane]

Jodi - You words express my thoughts exactly! However, I do think it has become quite clear that Norma Jean and Stoid will never understand what it means to supply valid proof. Neither one has been able to grasp the concept of this debate.

Norma Jean - I am not being facetious, but if you plan on staying, please visit About This Message Board to learn how to post quotes. I have to say, it is very hard trying to figure out your words and the words of others you are quoting.

[Jodi]

What I am trying to tell you is that the studies to which you refer have not, for the reasons stated, included us. There are other studies which have, or which at least refer to our existence.

Referring to your existence is not good enough, IMO; we acknowledge you exist.

Granted they are few, because if I were a researcher wanting to prove that all sex workers are drug addicted, AIDS infected people, I surely would not want to have people like me as subjects. I would go for the stereotypical street worker who was easier to access than the women who are under the radar.

If you are assigning some ulterior motive to the researchers, then the research is not credible, is it? And if you can prove such an ulterior motive, you can discredit the research. Maybe, if you are so inclined, you could try discrediting the negative research, since there appears to be little in the way of positive research for you to cite.

It seems that the information that needs verifying (through credible and accessible research reports) are statistics regarding the percentages of sex work venues, not studies which confirm the positive aspects of sex work- am I correct?

Not as far as I’m concerned. The entire issue raised is whether prostitution is defensible because the people engaged in it are there voluntarily, meaning not just because they can’t find other work to do, or badly need money, or whatever, but because they enjoy it. I, for one, am willing to concede that 80% to 90% of prostitutes work off-street (though how far off the street varies), because that is what the available data – pro and con – appears to indicate. That’s not the issue.

I contend that research has not been conducted on professions such as sports and the entertainment industry… do you know of any?

You do realize, do you not, that a lack of research in other fields can never prove anything, either about that field or about your field?

Have there been any studies to see how many attorneys are SA’s?

Lots and lots, actually. Lawyers are generally conceded to be unlikely to be illicit drug users, but nevertheless to be at greater risk for an alcohol abuse problem than society at large. Nevertheless, the indication is that up to 20% of practicing attorneys are problem drinkers – far less than the 50% to 70% you admit is accurate for streetwalkers. See Allan, Rick B., Alcoholism, Drug Abuse and Lawyers: Are We Ready To Address the Denial?, 31 Creighton L. Rev. 265, 265-66 (1997). Moreover, the profession of law is making a concerted effort to reach out to lawyers with substance abuse problems – witness the mentoring and “lawyers in trouble” programs now in place in many state bars. The prostitution industry does what, precisely, to combat drug use in its ranks?

[PunditLisa]

My $.02. I gave blood a few weeks ago (2 gallon donor - you can thank me later). From Hoxworth’s literature: “Although these questions can be very personal, they are the first line of defense against preventing donations from individuals at risk for AIDS and other diseases from entering the community’s blood supply.”
One of the questions: “Have you ever taken money in exchange for sex?”

---

As to the question of legalizing prostitution, my response to that is “NO!” Why? In addition to the the moral issues, I’ll add these:

1. See above. It puts people’s lives at risk. Yes, legalization can lead to laws about wearing condoms, but there are also seatbelt laws, folks. People get lazy. And how do you enforce it?

2. IMO, If men were to choose between Britney Spears and a 45 year old anyone, they’d most likely choose Britney Spears (or some other young, hot thing). Younger women entering the market would have a natural advantage of older women. And older women would be forced to leave a once lucrative career with no skills and no pension plan.

3. If you legalize prostitution, you make it fair game for everyone of legal age - which means 18 in some states, 21 in others.

And having been a former 18 year old girl myself, I know that we don’t need to add THIS to the list of pitfalls and temptations. I can’t imagine the pressure women would have were prostitution legalized. I can envision the sleazy ads: “Are you a recent graduate? Having trouble paying the rent? Imagine earning $10g a night!”

As a mother of 2 girls, let me say, “Legalization over my dead body.”

4. (Capitalist pig argument coming): Basic economics will tell you that more women entering the field will be bad for business. As supply increases, prices will drop.

5. If the only thing stopping a rich, sleazy businessman from offering a girl $15,000 for her maidenhead the second she turns 18 is the risk of going to jail, then I’m for the law.

6. It will lead to unwanted pregnancies and children not even knowing their father’s name. Well, aside from “john.” Who would pay the child support? Or would we just split it up amongst former clients?

[Measure_for_Measure]

This may be neither here nor there, but I thought I might point out that legalization would be more likely to decrease the wages of prostitution than the reverse (I’m thinking about the “above streetwalker” part of the market.)

To the extent criminal penalties, stigma and the necessity of bribing the local constabulary drive women away from prostitution, wages should decline following the removal of those sanctions. I doubt the extra male demand would compensate for that.

As an example, I understand that pay and working conditions are less than stellar in the parts of Nevada where the trade is legal. (Source: a COYOTE member speaking after an SF performance art show that an old girlfriend of mine dragged me to.) More definitive evidence might follow from an examination of the Netherlands experience.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Another reason, in addition to the above:
Some married women may not appreciate the fact that an extramarital fling is just a phone call away. They might prefer to see prostitution attached to the sort of stigma that comes with an illegal activity.
I’m not saying that’s the only reason of course.[sub] (And this point may have been made earlier; I didn’t read the entire thread).[/sub]

[kabbes]

Waaaaay back, on page 2, I said:

Objectification. I am opposed to anything which leads us to view people as a little less human and a little more object.

along with a supporting argument that you can go back and read if you wish.

I note that in the week that I have been away Ms Stoid has concentrated on the prostitute’s choice to be a prostitute and whether that choice is right or wrong for her, whilst almost ignoring the above except to dismiss it out of hand the few times that Jodi has brought it up as her point 4.

So I put it to you again: prostitution (along with the kind of porn which shows women looking seductively into a camera and a whole lot of other non-sex industry things) encourages society in general and men in particular to view women as little more than an orifice and two bumps. The question of the woman’s character and humanity is not just ignored, it is positively repressed. This is cecessary for the transaction - after all one would feel much more guilty about this abstracted rape (with thanks to elucidator on page 1) if one were to think of the prostitute in terms of their life and relationships.

It is exploitative of women, for this reason. You may argue all you wish that it doesn’t exploit the individual prostitute, but this would miss the point. The point that my sister, my mother and my girlfriend are made to feel uneasy in a society that is more interested in their body than their soul*.

I believe you claim to be a feminist stoid. I’m not sure how you can keep up this claim in the face of perpetuating an attitude of the woman as nothing more than a cunt.

pan

*I speak of soul in the metaphorical. I am not religious and would like to divorce my views as coming from any kind of religious background.

[Stoid]

First of all, I can’t spend acres of time on this. The straight Dope and various debates have become a form of obsessive behavior for me, eating up many hours of my time. Things are not getting handled. this is the downside to being your own boss… and it’s making me more than a little crazy.

But briefly…

Women are “objectified” without any help or hindrence from sex work of any kind. Such objectification exists on its own, but is more pervasively pushed by the mass media than private sex work. Tits and ass is the #1 selling tool in this country…stick a pretty girl in skimpy clothes next to it and ka-ching! Her character and humanity are absolutely ignored. Women are objectified in this and all societies. It has nothing to do with prostitution.

I am absolutely a feminist. But I do not hold with the victim mentality that is part of a certain faction of feminism, and I consider this attitude to be part of it. In my opinion, the attitude you seem hold de-sexes women in a way I don’t find at all productive or supportive of women. And of course, the prostitutes that I know feel empowered by their work. They are in control, they are making the decisions.

Further, as I have repeatedly explained and it has been repeatedly dismissed, there is often much more than mere sex going on between hookers and clients. There is cold, meaningless, objectified sex going on everywhere without cash being any part of it. There is also warm, caring, human interaction going on in sex between people when cash is involved. The addition or subtraction of cash does not determine which it will be.

And if your sister, mother and girlfriend feel society is more interested in their body than their soul, it isn’t because of the existence of prostitutes. I would also argue that it is society’s treatment of prostitutes which perpetuates objectification, and that greater compassion and acceptance would mitigate it. After all, it has not been me or my stepmother calling prostitutes:“just a cunt” “just a wet hole” it has been you who despise it. You won’t hear that kind of talk from most of the clients of prostitutes, either. You argue against my positive, accepting view…it seems my positive view is humane, compassionate, and acknowledges the character and humanity of prostitutes and other sex workers. Your attitude, on the other hand, is very hurtful and objectifying.

stoid

[Stoid]

*Originally posted by flowbark *
**Another reason, in addition to the above:
Some married women may not appreciate the fact that an extramarital fling is just a phone call away. **

If your husband wants to screw around on you, don’t blame the women he screws around with, paid or free. The problem does not lie with them.

And frankly, if my husband just HAD to cheat :rolleyes: , I’d MUCH rather he paid someone to have sex with him than than he actually formed a relationship with someone to acheive the same end. There’s certainly no guarantee he wouldn’t fall in love with a prostitute, but the odds are a little better that he won’t even get the chance to, given the time constraints between her being a hooker and him being married.

But cheaters are cheaters, Flow. Pick a man who doesn’t cheat instead of worrying about the women a cheater might end up cheating with.

stoid

[Odesio]

**

And frankly, if my husband just HAD to cheat :rolleyes: , I’d MUCH rather he paid someone to have sex with him than than he actually formed a relationship with someone to acheive the same end. There’s certainly no guarantee he wouldn’t fall in love with a prostitute, but the odds are a little better that he won’t even get the chance to, given the time constraints between her being a hooker and him being married.

But cheaters are cheaters, Flow. Pick a man who doesn’t cheat instead of worrying about the women a cheater might end up cheating with.

stoid

**

You never know Stoid. You yourself said that johns and hookers can build a loving relationship. He might rely on her to fulfill some need he can’t get at home.

That being said I think it is about time for this thread to die. You’ve heard many different explanations for why prostitution is distasteful to some people. Many different explanations then I expected and some which I didn’t even agree with.

If you want to start a thread about legalization I’d say go ahead. I’d actually be on your side in that case.

Marc

[Stoid]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

That being said I think it is about time for this thread to die.
**

I would just like to say that I find this remark annoying and arrogant.

I might agree with it, and I might not. But I don’t think it’s your place to determine such a thing. My observation over nearly 2 years here is that when the time for threads to die arrives, they die. They do not need to be told to die because someone (in this case, you) has tired of the topic. If you have, don’t read it. If others have not, why do you care?

Just rubbed me the wrong way and I thought I’d say so.

stoid