Every other appliance is vented.
Range, oven, dishwasher, heater, water heater, even sinks and toilets. I have self-whirling “fans” over the attic vents.
Yet the fridge is constantly blowing hot air into my room, making my A/C work overtime.
A simple tube would save money in a month, and it would be so cheap to add when the house is built and all the other tin is being installed.
Fridges (at least the “average American ones”) rely on free convection to cool their coils, which is why the coils are usually exposed in the back. If you put a cover over them to duct the hot air to the outside, the free convection wouldn’t work as well, and IMHO you would be forced to have a fan and rely on forced convection. And then you would need another vent to the attic or (most likely) roof, which does cost some significant $$ to do right (that is, without leaking).
False economy is where I’ve seen people put their fridge outside, on a porch. They claim that they are saving money because the AC is not working harder, when in reality they are losing more money because the fridge is now in a 90-100F ambient environment, and the compressor runs much more often.
Also, in the winter, the inefficiency of the fridge and it’s heat transfer help heat the house slightly.
Why are refrigerator motors on the bottom of the fridge? All the heat from the motor rises - right by and through the area you’re trying to cool.
When refrigerators were brand new, they put the motors on top, which makes infinitely more sense. I assume that putting the motor at the bottom makes them less “tippy”, and easier to move, but that doesn’t seem like a worthwhile tradeoff to me.
Why are refrigerator motors on the bottom of the fridge? All the heat from the motor rises - right by and through the area you’re trying to cool.
When refrigerators were brand new, they put the motors on top, which makes infinitely more sense. I assume that putting the motor at the bottom makes them less “tippy”, and easier to move, but that doesn’t seem like a worthwhile tradeoff to me.
>> Every other appliance is vented. Range, oven, dishwasher, heater, water heater, even sinks and toilets.
I think you are confusing quite a few things here. Sinks and toilets? You mean the sewer has a vent? yes, that is to vent the sewer as you would not want sewer gas in your house (I know I wouldn’t).
Heater and water heater? I assume they burn gas and the exhaust is vented outside. Of course, you’d die in short time if you kept the combustion gases indoors.
Dishwasher? What? A vented dishwasher? What are you talking about?
Range and oven are not necesarily vented outdoors. I assume you are referring to the hood which can be vented outdoors or can recirculate air. Vented outdoors is always better for several reasons.
All the above examples vent harmeful gases so they do not stay in the house. A refrigerator is an entirely different thing as it produces no gases, just some heat.
As has been pointed out, this presents no problem most of the year when the weather is cool. If you live in a hot place and put the refrigerator outside it will work double duty so better keep it inside with the AC.
In any case the “problem” is just not really a problem and not worth doing anything about it. You buy a refrigerator, plunk it down whereever and it works. If you were talking about an industrial installation generating thousands of times as much heat, that would be something else.
Fridges put the motor on the bottom for one reason - style. It is slightly more efficient to put the motor on top, due to the heat of the compressor not rising into the fridge.
And the fridge is not that much more tippy if the motor is at the top! I would give a WAG that other than during the process of a move, less than 5 people have ever been killed by their fridges falling over on them. Shame on you sailor!
I’ve also never seen a vented dishwasher either. Wondered about that.
>> And the fridge is not that much more tippy if the motor is at the top! I would give a WAG that other than during the process of a move, less than 5 people have ever been killed by their fridges falling over on them. Shame on you sailor!
As labdude points out, compressor at the bottom makes for more convenient distribution as the lowest part is the most uncomfortable to reach. That is probably an important reason too.
As for weight distribution, whatever number of people mey have been injured or killed may seem small to you but I bet if it was your loved one you would run to sue. I mean people are suing because kids suffocate in a refrigerator or car trunk. If a kid tries to climb a refrigerator and it falls on him you’ve got a lawsuit right there. I know there have been lawsuits about vending machines falling on people and about mailing boxes falling on kids. For a while there were big stickers on mail boxes in this are like they were dangerous as a nuclear device. Some thing like :“STOP! if this mailbox is not securely bolted to the ground do not let children near it and call x number to let us know”. I have seen vending machines with similar warnings telling you not to shake it or it may take revenge by killing you.
The compressor of a refrigerator is quite heavy and makes a difference on the stability of the unit. Having a low center of gravity makes the unit more stable and easier to handle when moving it as well.
The “shame on you” part I do not understand. Or could you see what I was wearing when I wrote that?
And here I am puting foam squares behind all my outlet boxes. Right. No point in saving energy, we’re a rich country, just consume and pay the bill.
Sounds reasonable to me. The problem of summer/winter is like the fireplace. A flue flap valve, runs about $5. Turn it 90º when you turn of the furnace pilot. (I guess you don’t do that either!).
Convection doesn’t have to be in a closed loop to be efficient. There’s convection venting for the water heater, after all, with no fan, and that’s toxic waste.
I doubt the compressor at the bottom has anything to do with safety, there’s lots of commercial fridges with top compressors that I’ve had the pleasure of moving and I didn’t find them to be unsafe in the slightest. Now fill it with food and its as stable as anything else in your home. If the hysterics described in the last couple posts were true then fridges would be bolted to the floor and have doorlocks in fear of the ubiqitous lawsuit.
Just because someone could sue about something doesn’t mean their case has merit, the home is filled with all sorts of dangers like uncovered power outlets, toasters that beg to be stuck with forks, a garbage disposal that is perfectly suited for a hand, drowning in a bathtub, etc.
Compressors are at the bottom for ease of servicing them when they break down. Its a lot more difficult to access the top than the bottom.
HorseloverFat, as has been pointed out, I think the main reason is convenience because that lower back spot is the most inconveninet to reach anyway.
Smartbob, I think you are trying to make a point but I am not sure what it is. Venting the refrigerator outdorrs would not mean any savings in energy as has been pointed out. During the colder months the heat is useful indoors. During the hot months the heat has to be pumped anyway whether you do it in one step )by having the condenser in the hot ambient air) or in two steps (by having it in an air-con room).
If you were not trying to make any point and just exercise your Godgiven right to rant for no reason, then ignore what I said.
Yes sailor, I agree with your points above. However, what I am saying is that I personally doubt, drawing on my “immense” ( ) engineering experience, that fridge stability was that big of a difference that it was the primary driver for the move to bottom compressors. Of course, I didn’t put it that way originally. It’s a moot point, as neither one of us can probably prove that stability was a primary reason for the location - it’s my opinion that it was not, and it’s your opinion that it is. I still like you!
One thing to look at would be at what era the move from top to bottom occurred. If in the 50’s, 60’s, or early 70’s, when we were a much less litigating society, then I would say the answer is purely convenience. If much later than that (late 70’s on) then liability in my opinion was probably a prime factor. Just my opinion.
You say one of us is stupid and doesn’t know hot air from cold?
Well, I have the same feeing, but I think the weak arguments are all yours.
". During the colder months the heat is useful indoors. During the hot months the heat has to be pumped anyway whether you do it in one step )by having the condenser in the hot ambient air) or in two steps (by having it in an air-con room). " Just not true.
Baby steps better for your attention span? Ok.
1)Winter, flue flap down. Heat stays inside. Just as now.
2)Summer, flue flap opened up. Heat rises. For a net savings in A/C costs.
3)The heat from the fridge is not hotter than the ambient air?
Well, since that’s going to happen only a few days a year, no matter where you live, on those days the heat won’t rise. It will be as now.
So, since there are 3 possible conditions, 2 of which have no added cost, and 1 that produces a savings.
The net result is savings.
And next time you insult me, have better logic behind it.
From what I recall from thermodynamics (which I brain-dumped after wimping out of engineering and becoming a CS major), one important thing is the carnot efficiency. This is entirely dependant on temperature difference. Most likely, a refrigerator is designed to operate most efficiently when it is pumping heat into a room-temperature environment. Venting it to the outside would require it to operate over a much larger range of temperatures. Easier to avoid the whole matter. Saves cost of cutting extra holes in your walls, and let’s you put fridge against an interior wall.
Regarding the motor at the bottom; the condensation off the evaporator coil drips into a pan at the bottom, and the heat from the motor helps to re-evaporate it.
Imagine having to install a condensate drain line on your fridge!
Sorry I didn’t respond to your post directly earlier. Well, I think I have to agree with you. I don’t see why making a vent like you say would not work well in the summer. And you know, you could probably add a little forced convection to do wonders with just a 0.5 amp fan and proper ducting.
If you wanted to be a real Bob Vila you could even tie the convection fan motor control into the fridge compressor control, so it only runs when the compressor runs. OR, you could get one of those nifty Radio Shack temperature-triggered switches for about $19.99, which will let you program exactly at which temperature to close the circuit and start/stop the fan. THEN, if you are a real do-it-your-selfer, you could get a small servo motor to automatically open and shut the vent, also triggered via the temperature switch. I think it would be a cool project to try anyways.
If I had enough free time, or someone was willing to pay my “standard rate”, I could do the calcs to figure whether that system would save money or not, and if so how much. But it’s late, and it’s a holiday. But let’s look at what one would need to calculate the potential ramifications:
Electricity cost.
A/C compressor efficiency.
Fridge motor/compressor train efficiency.
Desired house ambient temperature in summer.
Desired fridge/freezer temperature.
Volume of fridge.
Fridge HT Coefficient.
O&M cost of running the convection fan/flap servo.
Reduced O&M cost due to fridge compressor running less often, resulting in increaed fridge life?
Capital cost of modifications, plus labor rate.
Annual maintenance/inspection cost (miniscule).
Cost of removing rabid squirrels that come down the vent to kill you (OK, I made that one up).
Predictive maintenance of the system as a whole - expected failure rate of temperature switch, and differential replacement energy cost and parts/labor cost when a failure occurs. (Also, the switch could fail positively, during the winter, and cause a differential energy cost as that heat goes up the roof. Here we need estimates of furnace efficiency, market estimated natural gas or electricity prices, etc.)
I’m being a little facetious here because I do this stuff for power plants every week. But it’s an interesting experiment, yes?
I think the only reason ducting is not done is inertia - that is, it’s just not normally done, and thanks to coal (wooohoo!) electricity is still cheap in the US.
I just cannot see how the added expense and complication of venting the refrigerator ourside would compensate even remotely.
My refrigerator uses a 250w compressor which runs about 40% of the time on average which totals about 876Kwh/year. I pay 5.3 cents/Kwh but let us use 7 cents… say the refrigerator uses $60 worth of electricity per year. I cannot see how venting to the outside would save 1/20th of that or $3 a year. if you account for the increase in cost for the refrigerator and the expense and complication of the ducting, etc. I just cannot see any way in the world this would make sense. Of course the whole thing would have to be automatic as you cannot as the consumer to keep opening and closing the vent depending on the outside temperature.
On a similar line of reasoning I was thinking of the all the water wasted while waiting for the hot water to reach the faucet. I looked into installing a return to circulate the cold water in the pipes back to the heater so it would not be wasted but I realized it just would not pay even doing all the work myself (much less if you had to pay for the labor).
Just like the solar panels on the roof of my house, they are solutions that cost more than they save.
I’m not looking to insult you or cause trouble. Just an observation–have you thought about moving your water heater closer to your faucet?
Among the many jobs I’ve had, plumber was one. On a new construction job, I installed a water heater at one end of a house, even though the main plumbing stack (kitchen, master bath, kids’ bath, washer) was all the way at the opposite end of the house. I questioned the plan, asked the architect, pleaded with the owners–they refused to move the water heater. So–I installed it where they wanted it, then ran 75 feet of copper tubing (BIG house). Result? Their dishwasher ran on cold water, it took them five minutes to get water to their kitchen, longer to get it to their shower…
Needless to say, they called me back out to the site and paid me well to move the water heater to the place I told them they should have it.
Anthracite, Good post. You better watch out for those rabid squirrels, though. I had a 'possum attack me once. I don’t know if she was rabid, but she was dang sure mad.
Ciao.