I’m really glad that you got it and had a chance to road test it. And I can totally relate to your initial frustration not to jump in and play the role of solver. That’s really hard! Once you got over that hump, how was it for you?
That’s perfect. A little sympathy and then a question. Presumably, when I answer your question, you’re going to listen to what I have to say. That’s all I want. And when I answer, it would be great if you could just say “Wow, that sucks. I’ve had stuff like that happen.” Jumping in with a solution would be inappropriate and unhelpful. But just listening to my frustration for three seconds would be very much appreciated.
(The actual situation was that I was supposed to meet a group of people last night. I was really looking forward to it and had been planning for it all week. I went seriously out of my way to get there. Halfway there I got a voicemail saying that it was cancelled. It was no one’s fault and no one is happy about it. There’s no “fix” to it, it was just a little bit of a let down. Thanks for listening. :))
Something I don’t think has been explicitly brought up yet. One of the other things that the solving-not-listening thing can make people feel is:
ur doin it rong
“I had such a shit time at the supermarket - I dropped all the vegetables.”
- “Ah well what you should do is put the vegetables at the bottom if they’re heavy, or use a trolley not a basket.”
Most of the time the person knows how they fucked up. They don’t need to be told a better way to do shit because they already know. They just want to tell you what went wrong and have some sympathy or share a laugh.
I say this, by the way, because I’m a natural solver who has had to learn the listening thing the hard way. Also at work, it is best to empathise with an underling before jumping into a critique. And I hypocritically find myself being annoyed when people jump in immediately and try to solve my problems.
By the way, this discussion is somewhat encompassed by the T/F dichotomy observed in Myers-Briggs.
This got me in trouble recently. Normally I talk about work all the time to my wife. She rarely goes into detail about work or school. For her, she’ll only bring it up if it was a particularly horrible day.
A few days ago she was talking to me about how four women in her cohort at school dont contribute to discussions, and she feels Its affecting her learning experience. I kept formulating a response until she got angry and stopped talking to me alltogether for some time. Later, when she calmed down, she explained she just wanted me to listen, and the reason she rarely talks about her day is because she doesnt feel that I’m open to listening and always want to dominate the conversation with MY thoughts, MY opinions, and MY voice on what was primarily HER day. She felt a couple with good communication is able to give each other space to listen, even if the topic is boring.
I found it hard to hear. Sometimes I apparently bore the hell out of her but because I’m her husband and I’m passionate about the topic, she’ll engage me. She doesn’t feel I do the same in return. A part of me feels like doing this is the intellectual equivalent of faking an orgasm. But on the other hand, I understand she won’t be interested in ANYTHING I have to say if all I care about is me and never give her space to share.
It can be challenging, especially for people who take things really literally. But life does not give us in depth technical manuals on commmunication- we have to learn to fill in the blanks.
I am a solver and often have difficulty dealing with people who just want empathy. They get annoyed when we solve their problems. There is a presumption on their part that it is always safer to show empathy rather than solve a problem. That isn’t true. If you show empathy instead of suggesting a solution you come across as stupid if the person was expecting a recommended solution. Never show empathy at work.
Let me give an example: the English department complains that the students can’t write. The history department commiserates. The math department suggests having a placement exam and sending students to remedial writing classes before they are allowed into courses that expect writing. Solution has been presented but rarely implemented and the complaining continues.
Physics department complains students don’t know trigonometry. Math dept points out that students can pass college algebra without trig (although an A would indicate thorough knowledge) and that passing precalc requires trig. Physics dept makes precalc a prerequisite for their courses. Problem solved.
Problem solvers like to hear solutions and act on them. Empathetic types just want commiserate.
By the way, I am a woman problem solver and just as annoyed by the empathetic types as a lot of guys are annoyed with their wives. Women’s Magazines support the empathetic approach and girls are trained into this kind of behavior. But I think it holds women back in the work place. Sure their enpathy may make people feel better or more loved, but no one will come to them with a real problem.
Even parenting shouldn’t just involve empathy: comforting a child when he fails an exam or has to deal with bullies. On TV sitcoms, the mothers comfort and fathers deal with the problem implementing a punishment or strategizing how to handle the tough kids. Its very sexist and girls are brought up that this is how to act. Then as women they perpetuate the process themselves.
This whole debate is about the difference between taking people literally and hearing what they are actually needing.
Many times someone is trying to say, “I need a little empathy right now!” but instead they present what looks like a problem to be solved. If you try to solve the problem, you will not be giving the person what they need, and the conversation will take longer and may get quite cranky as you talk past each other.
You’d be surprised just how concise and satisfying a conversation can be if you give someone what they need instead what comes automatically for you.
Want to know how to tell whether someone needs empathy up front or just needs a concrete problem solved?
Ask.
Solving other people’s problems for them is great in theory, but in practice, I’d say the solution is relevant or useful less than half the time - either because the situation was a one-off and is over now, or (quite likely) because the solver didn’t wait to listen to the whole story before launching into a solution that simply doesn’t fit.
Solving often just means elbowing into the conversation and making it all about you, the solver, and all about how great you are at life. If the complainer has had a bad day, they’re unlikely to want that. “Wanna know what I’d have done in that situation?” - No, actually, they probably don’t.
And I say this as an instinctive, well-meaning, talkative solver. Learning to keep my helpful gob shut is difficult, but a lot of the time, it’s the right and proper thing to do.
But if I ask, am I to take their reply literally? If they say they want a solution, should I try to parse that to find a message about what they actually need but haven’t said? If they say they want empathy, perhaps I shouldn’t take that literally but instead try to guess what they are actually needing.
Some people want attention and find things to complain about and view people who want to fix their problem as wanting to deny them attention.
I’m not sure that that’s a great example. What you gave is a situation where action is more important than emapthy or sympathy. It’s a great example where solutions are needed.
When solutions are needed, provide them.
I’m currently in a situation where information and understanding are the most needed. This news came to me mid-afternoon. My father was air-lifted, after acting very irrationally, to a pretty far away hospital. I don’t know if he is going to live or die, but the latest news seems good. Scary stuff!
I don’t think there’s much anyone can do for me than to listen to my concerns. I’m a little helpless other than to watch my phone and computer for more information. My siblings and I are trying to gather more information.
What solution could I have offered my mother when she was really ditsraught this afternoon? She could barely speak. What she needed was for me to just be a solid and supportive son. That’s what she needed the most.
Please don’t try to “solve” my problem. The best help you can give me is for wishing my father well. I think he’ll pull through. 
Me too - except the SDMB things Myers-Briggs is equivalent to astrology, and yet, here it is.
The concurrent thread about extraversion/intraversion is also one of the four MBTI dichotomies. I think the skepticism is down to not actually knowing the full reasoning behind it.
FTR my take on Myers-Briggs is “mostly right, though for the wrong reasons”. Or as the psych professor I learned about it from said “there are many angles at which you can slice the sausage of personality; this is just one of them”.
There is a third reason why solving peoples’ problems for them is often not desirable, which has to do with the third kind of reaction I often find myself expecting from people I state a problem to, and where I often get frustrated.
If I tell someone of a problem I am having,
[ol]
[li]I sometimes tell of a general or past problem, and want empathy.[/li][li]I sometimes specifically ask for help with a current problem, and want that specific help.[/li][li]I often state that I am working on a present problem, by way of trying to politely tell the other person to STFU and not keep me from solving the problem.[/li][/ol]
So the list of desirable roles in others are for me: listeners, solvers, shutters-up.
Agreed.
The other thing to note here is that, if you’re a ‘solver’ - it may only mean you enjoy or feel comfortable talking about how you would solve the problem - it doesn’t necessarily follow that your proposed solutions are any damn good.
Absolutely, Mangetout.
Let me cite another example that involves emotional hurt. I was once in a singles group wherein one fella poured his heart out about being lonely. As far as I could tell, he wasn’t looking for a pity party; rather, I think he just felt like voicing his frustration to a small group of other people who could probably related to his problem.
Before long, another guy piped up, saying, “Here’s what you need to do! You need to go to places where you can find other people with the same interests! Libraries, book clubs, whatever. Why, even a hardware store can be a great place to…!” And he went on an on.
The lonely fella was visibly annoyed. “I’ve tried all of that,” he said. “I’ve gone to plenty of singles groups, and I’ve joined plenty of clubs. I have a lot of interests that I explore. Honestly, it hasn’t worked out yet.”
“Well then, you need to…” said the other guy, and on he went. I cringed.
Perhaps you can see why this discussion was a disaster. The second fella was intent on solving the first guy’s problem, but he wasn’t interested in listening. AS Mangetout said, he enjoyed talking about how he would solve this problem – basically, basking in his own cleverness. He was more interested in speaking than in listening, and he didn’t bother to see if his solutions had already been tried or not. As a result, he couldn’t see whether they were any good.
IMO, when ‘solvers’ exclaim, “I don’t understand. I’m offering a solution to this guy’s problem! Why isn’t he interested in what I have to say?” it’s often because they enjoy talking about how they would solve somebody’s situation. This doesn’t mean that they have the wisdom to learn enough about this situation before trying to solve it.
I am amused at how many people are describing themselves as problem solvers. How they manage to soldier on in the face of those frustrating wussies who just want sympathy is truly a testament to their strength in adversity.
It’s the one problem they’re still working on.
Basically, guessing works far better if you guess out loud and ask if your guess is right.
This is all from a movement called NonViolent Communication (much info online) which , I will testify, saved my marriage 12 years ago, and may again. The stuff works, if you work it. Look into it!
I have to wonder if the solver felt oppressed. Reading some responses in this thread, I’m coming to understand that people who just want to be heard are as bad as Hitler and solvers are poor, oppressed victims.