Funny, I didn’t find that in my Spanish-English dictionary.
Right, and that’s totally deplorable.
However, Argentina had 20,000 to 30,000 Desaparecidos – twoenty times as many as Chile. China’s Cultural Revolution, “… led to the deaths of more than two million people, including many scholars, intellectuals and artists.”
Under Pol Pot in Cambodia, “In the forced mass exodus, the government caused the deaths of an estimated 2 million Cambodians through imprisonment, torture, overwork, starvation and execution.”
Thousands have been killed, tortured or imprisoned by Castro, and millions have fled Cuba.
What does that mean?
Huh?
Here’s a cite.
It sounds like Chilean democracy is getting better and better. However, I will admit that 19 years without an election was an awfully long time.
bizzwire: *puh-leeze…do you really think that the September 11 attacks were a response for what we did to Somoza and Lumumba? *
Oh, you mean that “they”. No, AFAICT, the architects of the 9/11 attacks, if they had any rational motive at all (and I doubt that rationality is a big part of their worldview) were pissed off specifically about (non-Muslim) American troops remaining in Saudi Arabia, which they consider a defilement of Muslim holy space, as well as a crutch for a corrupt and impure regime.
The OP wasn’t specific as to which “they” it was talking about, so the discussion has ranged over various grievances that a number of different groups have against the US. Of course, as others have acknowledged already, not all of these grievances are going to be important to every group.
And as tomndebb has well said, the existence of legitimate grievances doesn’t mean that people can’t also hate the US for stupid, trivial, or downright irrational reasons. There’s nothing we can do about the latter group of nutbags, except (inshallah) catch them before they hurt us or punish them afterwards. But I strongly suspect that the more we do to alleviate the legitimate grievances, the more difficult it will be for the nutbags to persuade people to hate us for stupid reasons.
wring, perhaps this list of 70 suicide bombing attacks against Israel in the last 21 months will help show why a sense of proportion suggests not insisting on the release of someone who will organize even more bombings. YMMV
P.S. Today’s was the 71[sup]st[/sup]
december point remains - “just 'cause you point out one bad thing doesn’t mean you don’t abhor other bad thing” except, of course, when you’re talking about AI, since unless they focus only on what you consider the most heinous example, you assume that they’ve got no problem w/other bad acts.
Well I don’t just assume it. I know it.
Each of those 71 bombings was a lot more horrible to human beings than is detaining this murderer without proper procedure.
So, AI might have denounced each and every one of these attacks, to a greater degree than the procedural lapse on Sa’adat.
But, they haven’t.
you don’t see the irony in your position? you wish here that the US be given credit for not being the worst MoFo on the planet, and for others to recognize that by pointing out certain wrongful acts you’re not in any way implying that other wrongful acts aren’t also, well, wrong.
and yet, if AI attempts to point out wrongful acts in one case, you scream from the rafters “BUT wait! it’s not as bad as these others here ! why aren’t you pointing the finger there!?!??!”
Pity.
Maybe Estilicon can offer some more information about the Argentinian dictatorship if he wants, but I remember reading essays about it (and seeing different interviews about people that went thru it).
Estilicon: Wasn’t the Military Junta a Right-wing group? I thought it was if not explicitly supported, at least ignored by US…
In one of the interviews I saw and heard, there was a woman who was part of Madres de la Plaza Cinco de mayo… She was mad at the United States, and I understood why. december, the US exclaims to the rest of the world that it is the defender of democracy, the helper, the good guy… If you have grown believing that, how would you feel if you see the democracy of your country torn to pieces, your loved ones disappear, and US doing nothing and ignoring the place because “Hey, they are not communists/socialists”? I know I would be pissed, to put it mildly…
But I did find it in mine! 
As for the overthrow of the Guatemalan government-that was because Arbenz did not kiss the ass of the United Fruit Company.
It was supported by the U.S.A, in fact they shared (with the junta) their hatred for comunism. You have to remember that the junta was the last (and worst military regime). To be fair Carter did something, but things changed again with reagan (untill Malvina’s (Falkland’s) war).
However the number given by december 30000 disappeared is not correct, you see the Argentinian goverment offered compensation to the relatices and only 9000 asked for it. As I don’t have December’s “sense of proportion” I am shamed with that my state killed “only” 9000.
Tommdebb I can give you the translation but in the pit I am sure one of the moderators speaks spanish
december-you know, I could point out that technically, Pinochet killed more than the suicide bombers…
Where’s your proportion now?
:rolleyes:
Karl Grenze, a small correction (if you don`t mind) it is called Plaza de Mayo, nothing happened in the 5 of may of 1810. If I am not wrong and American ship arrived on the 6 with news that the Sevilla Junta had fallen, Viceroy Baltasar Hidalgo de Cisneros arrested the crew but as the idiom says “bad news travel fast”, on the 22 an open congress was demanded, it was granted with Cisneros as the president, finally on the 25 the first autonomos goverment was created, presided by the bolivian Cornelio Saavedra. That is why we celebrate every 25, but still all of “La semana de mayo” is important. Our independence is on 9 of July (1816) when in my city (San Miguel de Tucumán) independence was declared.
Hope I didn’t bore you.
Yes, many people envy you just because you are successful, other people who you may think are just envy are really pissed off because the US companies’ success damaged the local economy and/or the government. The United Fruit Company depended on a US friendly government, not always the one democratically elected.
Well, I’m a believer that every country that has had more power or influence than others has done bad things to those others. Of course, you are asking why the other people hate the US, not why the other people hate France, Spain, Italy, or other old imperial powers, that’s why only bad things that the US has done are mentioned here…but I’ll gladly dug up some desputable things those other empires had done in the past, if you want.
This is what I was referring to in my previous post. The US claims to be the good guy, but to the people that suffered thru some of US mistakes, that is just a big fat lie and hipocrisy. For you the US won the cold war peacefully…for the Chilean or Nicaraguan or Grenadian that had to see US intervene in his/her country, it was not peaceful. And don’t forget the US is one of UN’s biggest debtors…what good is it founding something when you don’t support it? (And no, I don’t agree with everything the UN does, either)
Good to whom? To the US? Apparently not, since it was ousted! To the people? Only they had the power to decide, and since they were not the ones who ousted the government, one could say they were ok with it. december, one of the things about democracy is that if the people who vote for the government can also oust them. They can revolt in the streets, go to court, stage parades, etc. Even if they don’t get what they wanted (deposition of the government), at least they made the government clear on what their ideas and proposals were. Look what happened in the Philippines…look what happened in Indonesia with Suharto…
- Which related to the general population, is to say not much.
- Argentina also went thru right-wing and military juntas, endorsed or at least tolerated by the US.
Please find me one, because at least in Latin America, I cannot think of one place were this is/was the case!
I’m going to assume you didn’t actually mean to imply “they’re all just a bunch of barbarians who are used to killing each other” sentiment that your statement above conveyed to me. But regardless, you couldn’t be any more incorrect about this.
To this very day, the mere mention of the war brings back emotions of tremendous sadness and loss to those who lost someone; Kind of similar to the emotions and reactions to Viet Nam.
And just exactly what did they do to each other in the 70’s?
You’ll “bet” that people all over the world are basically the same? Just for those of us who don’t know you personally, how much of the rest of the world’s population have you lived amongst?
Though I tend to agree with the sentiment that people all over the world generally want to live their lives in one way or another, I hardly think they have the memory of a labotomized gnat like you seem to be suggesting they do.
You’re American, correct? How many of your fellow citizens have forgotten the first World Trade Center attack? How many of your citizens have forgotten the Oklahoma city bombing. Judging by the popularity of the film “Pearl Harbor” I’d “bet” you Americans seem to remember events that happened long before some of you were even born. At least have the decency to admit there might be others in “those” places which can do so as well.
You stated that “they” may not care about events from 40 years ago. Possibly true… if they were random acts of violence or some other small foot note in history. Toppling governments and imposing puppet regimes do not blow away with yesterday’s newspapers. Those events have very long lasting effects on the mass populace.
And of course, you couldn’t let one slip by without a jab at “dem dang lib’rls,” eh Roscoe?
Why is everyone avoiding the elephant in the room?
Let’s just state it simply – as I’m reading it, in december’s book, terrorism, atrocities, and crimes against humanity are all okay as long as they’re done while implementing a government policy that benefits the United States.
That’s why he tosses out such handwaving bullstuff like “the stuff done in Central America was peanuts compared to what happened in Asia.” Never mind that, for most of the folks in this thread, all such acts should be condemned regardless of their size – hey, if Uncle Sam wants omelettes, december thinks it’s okay to break a few eggs…
I think december is not making any sense at all, he seems to be ok with “small” violations of human rights but against terrorist attacks. I think he ought to listen to his wife and shut up
Kimstu: But I strongly suspect that the more we do to alleviate the legitimate grievances, the more difficult it will be for the nutbags to persuade people to hate us for stupid reasons.
Why wouldn’t policy makers come to the same position? How can the U.S. act in a way that allows nations and people to sort out their own difficulties? And while doing that remained engaged, and focused on the global issues that will foster successful economies, respect for human rights and democratic ideals.
KarlGrenze: And don’t forget the US is one of UN’s biggest debtors…what good is it founding something when you don’t support it? (And no, I don’t agree with everything the UN does, either)
What is the beef with the United Nations? Why did the U.S. not pay the debt to the UN?
http://www.unsystem.org/auditors/
http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/core/un-us-02.htm
This sounds like like the usual leftist, anti-American line;* the US is always wrong*. However, you may be sincere, KarlGrenze. Here’s your sincerity test:
The US embargo of Cuba has served to protect Cuba from US companies damaging the local economy and/or the Cuban government. Are you in favor of this embargo?
and this is not only rudely offensive claptrap, but I absolutely demand that you support this with something other than your usual suspects of right wing columnists.
To call an entire group of us “anti American” because of a liberal stance is indefensible.
I used to say that, whatever else you were, you were polite.
I won’t anymore.
:wally