Why do they hate us so much?

Great Debates
61

If I shut up, who would you debatewith, entsilicon? :wink:

I am not OK with small human rights violations. Guin was correct that many human rights violations took place under Pinochet, but I was pointing out that she exaggerated their magnitude, in comparison with a number other horrible episodes that truly were, “the worst human rights abuses of the latter half of the century.”

jacksen9 – The UN has become terribly corrupt, in terms of the way it spends money and in terms of allowing countries which don’t prermit human rights to set the UN’s human rights policies. Further, it is not al effective in its primary duties (although WHO words very well and UNICEF works fine.)

Withholding dues was an effort to improve the UN, and it was marginally successful.

The US deserves the gratitude of the world for this effort to force the UN to become a more effective peace organization.

rjung, you say that “all such acts [human rights violations] should be condemned.” Would you condemn the violations committed by Allende and his supporters? The Ortegas?

62

Thank you so much for not immediately assuming I think the rest of the world are violent barbarians. I simply refered to these particular regions because that’s where a lot of people seem to hate us.

I’ve been around. But no, I have not been to every country in the entire world.

Would you disagree witht the statement that most people (including imperialist capitalist pigs) generally want to live their lives, make a decent living, maybe raise a family and basically just do their thing with a minimum of hassel and outside interference?

Oh good. We are in agreement

The WTC is still fresh in peoples mind. Except for the people who were directly affect, Oklahoma City has already started to fade into memory. 30 Years from now, the WTC and OK City will be an interesting piece of history my grandchildren read about in school.

I’m not trying to belittle or make light of these events. And you are right. There are even still some unresolved issues here in the USA that are left over from the Civil War. But these historical events do not incite people to take to the streets to burn US flags and effigies of George Bush. How many Americans still hate the "Japs and the “Krauts”?

Well I don’t speak with a Southern accent. That would make me an uneducated redneck, right? And you know what? I don’t really even disagree with a lot of what liberals believe. I just dislike their “enlightened” holier-than-thou hypocrytical attitude. I expressed no judgement towards other cultures. But that didn’t stop you from getting on my case because I didn’t just get on the “let’s bash America” bandwagon.

I want to address this statement for a second:

I think it sums up the whole problem. Palestinians hate us because we are allied with Israel and did not intervene in their problems. So if we did step in, now we are interfearing. Israels pissed at us.

Forgetting which side is right or wrong for a second. Is America supposed to be neutral in every conflict accross the world? If we interfear, we’re imperialist, biased, etc. If we don’t interfear, we’re isolationists who are “late for every war”. People want to trade with us. People don’t want our “cultural imperialism”. Americans are stupid and lazy. Let’s send our kids to American colleges and apply for H1B visas so we can work in America. We don’t like Americans. Yes we take US$.

Now don’t get me wrong. I would like to be able to say that America always has the best intentions. I think most of the time we do. But I also don’t feel we should be at the beck and call of the rest of the world.

63

Sorry to be tardy. I had response all composed, but my dog ate it.

The OP was “why do they hate us?” I assumed that “They” meant, for want of a better term, those militant Islamic groups which are responsible for recent terrorist acts such as Al Qaeda, Hamas, and those who approve and support such acts. Crusoe and Kimstu correctly pointed out that I was thinking a little too narrowly, and that our past behaviour has not been particularly stellar. I stand corrected. But let me ask, in all sincerity, despite all of our machinations and intrigues in Central and South America, does the average Joe and Jane in Nicaragua or Chile really hate the US? I agree that we have treated them poorly in the past, but you rarely read about a Chilean terrorist blowing up an American ship in harbor, or an Argentinian bombing of our embassy.
Also, in regards to Kimstu’s comment about our presence in Saudi Arabia, aren’t we there at the request of the Saudi government?

64

Sure. Provide evidence that Allende was responsible for “violations.” I’ll condemn it.

The Saudi government is an oligarchy that is not well loved by the populace. The Saudi people do not follow the government line on a great many beliefs–which is one reason that bin Laden, the Saudi, has been so successful recruiting his al Qaeda from among the Saudis.

65

OK

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/1999JanMar/0085.html

http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/chile_chile2.html

http://www.pensionreform.org/eys/economist_1973.html

66

december, far be it from me to question the direction in which you’re steering your own thread, but I have to wonder what you think you’re going to prove with those cites, and also what in the everlovin’ world Allende’s faults have to do with the question posed in your OP.

67

It sure looks like a hijack, but there’s a roundabout relevance.

What I was hoping to prove with the Allende cites is that Estilicon has a leftist POV. S/he is happy to condemn America and our allies for any human rights violations, regardless of context or provocations. But, I am guessing that s/he would be less willing to similarly condemn a leftist. I wasn’t aiming to shoot at my friend, tomndebb, but he chose to walk into the crossfire.

The subtext of the OP was leftist propaganda, as several posters noted. So Entsilicon’s POV has some relevance.

68

Thanks for the explanation. If your argument is that human rights violations by the US are more likely to be condemned by “leftists” than the same violations if committed by a leftist government, then I concede the relevance.

Now, in order to prove Pinochet’s abuses were magnified by leftists all you have to do is demonstrate that any human rights violations of the same magnitude by Allende were not condemned with the same degree of “willingness” by the same people who (briefly) condemned Pinochet (before his death squads took care of them). Good luck.

69

I’ll take that as a “yes.”

70

No, I’m not in favor, and no, don’t agree with Fidel…and I didn’t say the US was always wrong…I said the envy that some people may feel is not envy (although you perceive it that way) but the people being pissed off (not jealous) of the actions of US companies to their local economies and/or governements. Of course, there is always people that are envy no matter what.

I look at the embargo from the POV of the US: The US can export its culture to other countries…US-based companies make lots of money overseas…the embargo is damaging US-based companies by not letting them even try to open their stores and chains there.

Another thing:

I know trade is necessary among nations because there are no truly self-suficient countries. To punish an allied country because it wants to trade with Cuba…is punishing both countries and it’s stupid. Canada (or France, or Spain) gets something out of a treaty with Cuba, and so does Cuba. Granted, even if money flows in, Fidel may not redistribute it as equally as he may claim, but more trade may allow more Cubans to get some of that trickle money. I’m just waiting for the day Cubans (inside of Cuba, not brought in from outside) will topple Fidel’s government (if they are truly against it) and replace it with a more democratic government, whose economic and foreign policies would be what the Cubans themselves want, not what other countries may want.

71

Unfortunately, with more baseless Op-Ed pieces and a “Pinochet is God” supporter.

Ahh, well.

72

Karl Grenze, you’ve been suckered. The appropriate response to this statement and question

is to reply that the Intifada and suicide bombings have been helping protect the Israeli beaches and ancient archaeological sites from the depredations of tourists.

As posed, the statement assumes that the only way that Cuba could be protected from the depredations of United Fruit is for the U.S. to bar all activity by any U.S. company in that country. It ignores the more logical approach that the U.S. simply refrain from overthrowing governments and imposing puppets whenever United Fruit decided it wanted a sweeter deal.

73

i’ve already proved that there were a number of human rights violations of far larger magnitude. All I was doing was quibbling with a single word of Guin’s

Again I’m qubbling over wording. Two of my adversaries sanctimoniously proclaimed that any human rights abuse should be condemned (and they criticized me for not condemning the Chilean abuses with sufficient vigor.) Since Allende and his supporters also committed abuses, by their own stated standards, these Pinochet critics should be comdemning Allende. So far,those condemnations haven’t been posted here…

74

Except, you misquoted me. I said, AMONG the worst human rights abuses.

I did not say they were THE worst.

Your “cite” for Allende’s violations was a message board post.

:rolleyes:

And the article from the Economist was written directly after the coup. It was prior to Pinochet’s worst and most disgusting violations.
Also, what about the people in El Salvador? The US supported one of the most disgusting military regimes this side of the western hemisphere. Hello, School of the Americas, Robert D’Aubuisson, Oscar Romero?

What about how Jean Kirkpatrick and Alexander Haig accused four murdered church women (two Maryknoll nuns, one Ursuline nun and one lay missionary) of being communist subversives?
For years we controlled these countries, december. Hell, I’d say we’ve been in control for most of the 20th Century, and at times during the 19th as well. I’d say they bloody well have reason to hate us.

(And if anyone wants to insinuate that I hate America, well, that says more about you than me. I love my country, but I am NOT “America, right or wrong.” )

75

Uh… where? Did the same dog you imagined for Guin eat that proof? Or are you just saying other, larger abuses have been perpetrated elsewhere and elsewhen [sub]but not necessarily by Allende[/sub]?

:rolleyes:

76

Oh, and I suppose you think the fish in the Potomac would be better protected if the US Army Corps of Engineers stopped dumping toxic sludge into the river?

Commie.

77

Well now that I am back for a little while:

Tom was usefully bringing to our more prolific spreader of un-knowledge and self-absorbed and self-congratulatory ideological posturing a list of reasons why “they” might be a trifle peeved with America. As such it is somewhat less than enlightening to observe (without comment on our own dear spreader of inane factually devoid ideological posturings) that the list is one-sided, insofar as it is a response to a specified question.

As for “academic nonsense” well let us take a little closer look, although I always am entertained in a passive and sad manner, by this phrase when used by someone arguing from ignorance.

[quote]

The average Middle Easterner, by and large, cares about as much about what the US did in South America 50 years ago as I do about what the Iranis and Iraqis did to each other in the 70s and 80s. Which is to say, not at all.
[\quote]

One of the continued worst sins Americans on this board commit is judging the rest of the world by the terribly pitiful levels of American engagement in World events.

In other words my dear speculator, you’re wrong. Of course this rather tends to happen when one speculates without any experience or knowledge about a region and that from an ideologically driven POV.

Of course we can expect the usual weasel arguments about the “average” Middle Easterner. It is impossible to dispose of those in a coherent way, but let me define where my comments come from. Café conversations over a good decade, reading Arab press on a sustained basis and following developments. Experience living and working in the developing world (as well as the world outside of the USA).

We can certainly say that the isolated bedou or felaah, illiterate and uneducated doesn’t know – and thus can not care. But they’re not the Arab street, they’re not where the foot soldiers of radical movements come from, they’re not the people who have made revolutions or supported them. No, the urban lumpenproletariat and the professional classes – ‘middle class.’

Now, those folks do care. They hear about the “sins” the developed world and especially America has committed or is perceived to have committed. Well informed? No, certainly not. Aware of, oh yes. One can be surprised by the sort of half-baked awareness the semi-educated Egyptian or Moroccan or Lebanese or Nigerian has of America’s global sins. The details they may cite, the analysis advanced certainly won’t hold water were it the case of arguing with someone well-informed by some objective standard, but there is an awareness. Not a few times have I had Iran-Contra (by reference to arms sales and the like, not by name) thrown up as a reason for the hypocrisy of America policy in re Iraq & Saddam Hussien by people of only modest education. American sins in Latin America – overthrowing regimes, supporting dictators at our whim and with I would add precious little objective and balanced analysis of the costs and benefits of the same – are often known in some vague detail, e.g. Chile, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba.

Bet away. Bets made in complacent self-satisfied ignorance lose you money.

Or to put it rather more clearly – American disengagement – speaking here of the average American’s stunning ignorance of the least bit of information about history or even current events outside of his or her own narrow community – from the rest of the world is a luxury of the complacent and the sheltered. The developing world is a distant problem to the complacent fat couch potato whose most adventurous trip may be a canned trip to the Antilles. Immigrants the closest contact and that is understood in a domestic context, except for some vague notion of “them” having problems “there” – amusing me in the oft said “they’re always fighting over there and I am tired of hearing about it” which may be profitably translated as “I know nothing of the outside of the world and ignorance is indeed bliss for me, and always hearing about it really means once is too many times for me.”

In the developing world, the attention drivers are fundamentally different. Rightly or wrongly ( a bit of both in truth ) most of the population perceives that the developed world and often America specifically drives their fates and they are not free to truly choose the governments they like (leaving aside the issue of native dictatorship, this is the realm of perception. A funny place that, where high ranking Egyptian officials have indicated that they feel constrained by America.) People care about stories, often repeated – if as often one-sided and biased, about the US and its wrong-doings, real and imagined, because they give explanatory value to the shitty state in which they live.

In a sense you’re accidentally – but only accidentally – right insofar as people around the world are quite similar in deep-seated analytical structures, in how they structure where their attention goes. But you’re fundamentally wrong otherwise, although in a very typical fashion.

78

You sound just like the “they” who hate America.

79

Actually december I would be a he.

“Context”, “provocation”, “sense of proportion”, etc. Nice words, wher did you learn it? Mein Kampf?
Unfortunately you proved nothing. You see an editorial from the economist only prove that the conomist’s editor didn’t like Allende that much.
You don’t seem to know much about Chile’s history. Allende was facing tremendous opposition by Chile’s oligarchy that torpedoed every economic measures he took. They also went, as we say “knocking on the headquarters doors”. Fortunately the chief of the chilean army was a democrat, unfortunately the U.S. got rid of him (he was murdered) the new chief was your pal pinoccio (if you call me a leftist I have the right to call you a facist).
Contrary to what all the cites you provided say, Pinoccio is not a democrat. It is true he had to call for elections at the end (after 17 years of one of the worst dictatorships of Latin America) not because he wanted but because international pressure forced him to.
Also it is unclear wether Allende shot himself or was murdered. What he did, in a region were elected officials when ousted go without protesting, was very brave. He staryed in the presidential palace and he stayed to his end.
Finally Castro is an idiot, Lenin another. Don’t let me star with Stalin or Pol Pot or Arafat (he si not from the left but still…). Fisrt i am a democrat I condemm human rights violations when I see them regardless of who makes them or how big they are.

80

Hi everyone!

Nice site, but why do You guys, most of You, do not tell Your locations?

To the tread:

  • It strikes me that some of You are saying: “Hitler, Stalin, Mao was worse than we…”
    I had to think hard to understand that “of course we can bomb…, just look in the history-book and we find a culprit that has been worse!!”

When I was a child, fighting in the schoolyard, asked why I hit the next guy, I always said: “He begun!!!”
I was never cleaver enough to say:
“I hit? Whatta You mean by ‘I hit’? You just should see the other guy next block.
He hits hard! Much harder! Yes he hits very hard!!!
So please do not disturb me", (continuing hitting).
The debate level is not higher than that. From some of You. Excuse me for saying so.

December You are right! You should not be silent, even if You have most amazing arguments. I suppose that You see the Amnesty International reports as Maoist propaganda? If not, please read some. It will do good for You.

Why do they hate us so much?
Everyone seem to look at this that “us” is US. Well, it’s not that simple.
I remember one report some 20 years ago. It said that in the Bolivian mines where they dig led, the average life-length of the workers is 27 years. Further it told that there was many children working, from age 7 and up. Their work was to inspect the small
waste-stones, hoping to found something of value.
Naturally much has changed since then, anyhow half of them has died if nothing else.

So, let us think that I would drive around in some country, where “we beautiful whites” would own a lot, with my Volvo.
Then some of these guys would throw a stone at me. I would stop the car and wave my passport, which is not an American passport shouting: “I am not American!!!”
Do You think the guy would run to me and ask for forgiveness?
He would give a fuck about it. He would only see that I am a white male, driving with a expensive car etc. - and throw more stones.

See Yourself as that kid. No school, education just on paper, no future.
You would only had heard who was the owners of the pit that pays so badly, from the elder folks.
Do You think that You would come to the conclusion that they, Your parents are lying, because Radio Free Whatever-Bullshit says so?
And if it is the truth, (that You can not go to school because You have to drag Your straw to the family…), should not the radio-programs be listened by the owners of the company instead of You? The owners are usually the white race, we, the beautiful
whities, with our beautiful homes far, far away. Buying shares with the help of our computers.
I can be one of the owners, You can be, You who read this in Sweden, England or USA.
And we do not even think about it, when we start our cars, with accumulators that consist lead, which origin we do not even think about.
I am absolutely not against free trade, we just should think a little bit about what we are doing.

Yes it was awful when the terrorists attacked. Yes it is terrible that every 4th second a human, mostly a child, are starving to death, some 20.000 each day.
But these mother****ers are not white!

Even whites can hate whites: Go to Poland, Estonia, Romania and ask if they like the Russians?
Do You think they will answer: “Of course not, we hate USA, because they sell us TV-programs that are not in our language!”
A fact is that Russia is a very hard capitalistic country. Here we have bandit-capitalism.
Earlier this was an army-camp/imperialistic police-state.
But if it would still have army bases here and there in other countries, as USA and Great Britain, do You think that they would be loved?

Today, I was reading In Helsingin Sanomat, Finland, (probably some Maoist organ), that some Australian politician (and I do not think that it is an Aborigine) says: “If the immigrants/refugees do not behave well, shoot them. You do only have to shoot a few and the rest will know…”.
Well, in fact he is the Mayor of Port Lincoln, Mayor Peter Davis.
In the “The Australia-Israel Review”, http://www.join.org.au/aijac/96-11-11/davis.htm, (I think it is a Marxist paper attacking the White Race) he argued “that children of inter-racial partnerships were “mongrels”. “
I think BBC (own by the English government = probably beginning of socialism sneaking into the Royal bedchamber) also mentioned this guy some weeks ago.
Anyhow, the refugees should love him, or what?

Then think that You are a 12 year old child somewhere in a war. One missile, bomb or something like that does not go off. There You stand with the other people, and there stands the non-working bomb. And the inscription says “Made in Russia” or Great
Britain, France or USA, just take Your pick.
And that evening You can see in a cafe in the television from “TV-Free-Whatsoevercrap”, why it was necessary to bomb. The white guy is saying so.
He is from a rich country, he can’t be wrong, he has to be right.

Unfortunately You are poor, but there is one good thing in it: You can not afford to have a computer and go to the InterNet and see that someone is asking: “Why do they hate us so much?”

No! Hell, NO! We should be loved!
We give these jerks work and freedom.
They are free to sing their songs in the mines and factories if they wish, if it does not affect negatively their work!
And they have the freedom to buy the majority of the company where they work and sing their happy songs!
Yes! You from the third world whos resourses we just tempoarely lend; Unite and buy shares, do not read too much and we will send You soap-opears.
Thus everyone will be happy.

(I hope You understand that some of the passages are ironic. I do not intend to hurt anyone,)
except
the conscience of the beautiful selfish whities like me!