Why do they hate us so much?

Great Debates
81

I guess you came into this thread in the middle, xenophon41. That’s exactly what I said, in fact. Guin had described Pinochet’s violations of human rights as “among the largest in the last half of the 20th century,” I disputed her, and provided a list of enormously larger violations.

If someone claimed that the beetle was among the largest animals, I would disagree, and point to the whale, elephant, hippo, etc.

Pinochet’s atrocities were serious, but they were not among the largest.

Guin – I accept your correction. I will now quibble with you. You said, “Your “cite” for Allende’s violations was a message board post.” First of all, I had 3 cites, of which 2 were not message board posts.

I fully agree with your point about the Economist cite being too early to include most of Pinochet’s atrocities. However, it was included because it helps prove that Allende committed some human rights violations.

I don’t claim that Allende was worse than Pinochet, nor do I claim that Stalin’s violations excuse Pinochet’s. However, Guin’s and xenophon41’s posts could be read to imply that Pinochet’s greater violations of human rights excuse Allende’s. Is that what you actually believe?

82

Hi everyone!

Nice site, but why do You guys, most of You, do not tell Your locations?

To the tread:

  • It strikes me that some of You are saying: “Hitler, Stalin, Mao was worse than we…”
    I had to think hard to understand that “of course we can bomb…, just look in the history-book and we find a culprit that has been worse!!”

When I was a child, fighting in the schoolyard, asked why I hit the next guy, I always said: “He begun!!!”
I was never cleaver enough to say:
“I hit? Whatta You mean by ‘I hit’? You just should see the other guy next block.
He hits hard! Much harder! Yes he hits very hard!!!
So please do not disturb me", (continuing hitting).
The debate level is not higher than that. From some of You. Excuse me for saying so.

December You are right! You should not be silent, even if You have most amazing arguments. I suppose that You see the Amnesty International reports as Maoist propaganda? If not, please read some. It will do good for You.

Why do they hate us so much?
Everyone seem to look at this that “us” is US. Well, it’s not that simple.
I remember one report some 20 years ago. It said that in the Bolivian mines where they dig led, the average life-length of the workers is 27 years. Further it told that there was many children working, from age 7 and up. Their work was to inspect the small
waste-stones, hoping to found something of value.
Naturally much has changed since then, anyhow half of them has died if nothing else.

So, let us think that I would drive around in some country, where “we beautiful whites” would own a lot, with my Volvo.
Then some of these guys would throw a stone at me. I would stop the car and wave my passport, which is not an American passport shouting: “I am not American!!!”
Do You think the guy would run to me and ask for forgiveness?
He would give a fuck about it. He would only see that I am a white male, driving with a expensive car etc. - and throw more stones.

See Yourself as that kid. No school, education just on paper, no future.
You would only had heard who was the owners of the pit that pays so badly, from the elder folks.
Do You think that You would come to the conclusion that they, Your parents are lying, because Radio Free Whatever-Bullshit says so?
And if it is the truth, (that You can not go to school because You have to drag Your straw to the family…), should not the radio-programs be listened by the owners of the company instead of You? The owners are usually the white race, we, the beautiful
whities, with our beautiful homes far, far away. Buying shares with the help of our computers.
I can be one of the owners, You can be, You who read this in Sweden, England or USA.
And we do not even think about it, when we start our cars, with accumulators that consist lead, which origin we do not even think about.
I am absolutely not against free trade, we just should think a little bit about what we are doing.

Yes it was awful when the terrorists attacked. Yes it is terrible that every 4th second a human, mostly a child, are starving to death, some 20.000 each day.
But these mother****ers are not white!

Even whites can hate whites: Go to Poland, Estonia, Romania and ask if they like the Russians?
Do You think they will answer: “Of course not, we hate USA, because they sell us TV-programs that are not in our language!”
A fact is that Russia is a very hard capitalistic country. Here we have bandit-capitalism.
Earlier this was an army-camp/imperialistic police-state.
But if it would still have army bases here and there in other countries, as USA and Great Britain, do You think that they would be loved?

Today, I was reading In Helsingin Sanomat, Finland, (probably some Maoist organ), that some Australian politician (and I do not think that it is an Aborigine) says: “If the immigrants/refugees do not behave well, shoot them. You do only have to shoot a few and the rest will know…”.
Well, in fact he is the Mayor of Port Lincoln, Mayor Peter Davis.
In the “The Australia-Israel Review”, http://www.join.org.au/aijac/96-11-11/davis.htm, (I think it is a Marxist paper attacking the White Race) he argued “that children of inter-racial partnerships were “mongrels”. “

I think BBC (owned by the English government = probably beginning of socialism sneaking into the Royal bedchamber) also mentioned this guy some weeks ago.
Anyhow, the refugees should love him, or what?

Then think that You are a 12 year old child somewhere in a war. One missile, bomb or something like that does not go off. There You stand with the other people, and there stands the non-working bomb. And the inscription says “Made in Russia” or Great
Britain, France or USA, just take Your pick.
And that evening You can see in a cafe in the television from “TV-Free-Whatsoevercrap”, why it was necessary to bomb. The white guy is saying so.
He is from a rich country, he can’t be wrong, he has to be right.

Unfortunately You are poor, but there is one good thing in it: You can not afford to have a computer and go to the InterNet and see that someone is asking: “Why do they hate us so much?”

No! Hell, NO! We should be loved!
We give these jerks work and freedom.
They are free to sing their songs in the mines and factories if they wish, if it does not affect negatively their work!
And they have the freedom to buy the majority of the company where they work and sing their happy songs!
Yes! You from the third world whos resourses we just tempoarely lend; Unite and buy shares, do not read too much and we will send You soap-opears.
Thus everyone will be happy.

(I hope You understand that some of the passages are ironic. I do not intend to hurt anyone,)
except
the conscience of the beautiful selfish whities like me!

83

december, your posts “could be read to imply” that you worship an icon of Dean Rusk and drink the blood of live kittens. Is that how you actually are?
Henry B: Welcome to the Straight Dope! Your irony was noted and appreciated (at least by me).

84

I categorically deny the part about Dean Rusk.

[sup]How did he find out about the kittens?[/sup]

85

Collounsbury:
For the sake of debate, let’s assume that great numbers of Americans had vast knowledge of global issues. What if Americans were informed and what if they were truly passionate in regard to foreign policy. Do you think members of other nations would hate the U.S. less?

In addition, for the sake of debate, let’s assume that this educated and informed populace possessed enormous power. How would American Foreign Policy be different? Could the rank and file American make better decisions than Shultz, Eagleburger, Kissinger, William Rogers and countless other cabinet members and presidential advisors?

Just curious.:confused:

86

December
Reading the excerpts of the cites on Allende you posted above (although, I admit, not the entirety of the linked sites) a question occurred to me:

Does the substance of the human rights abuses you attribute Allende consist of creating general economic chaos?

I am not sure that crosses the threshhold for human rights abuses for me. It may be a justification for removing Allende from power (YMMV). There is insufficient specificity in the excerpts you posted for me to condemn him for anything more than being a lousy leader.

87

Thanks, Tom! :slight_smile: But Intifada and Middle East conflict is not what I know most of the themes here, so I couldn’t come with such a comeback… sigh

One day, just one day I’ll be able to do that.

88

I have to get on a plane tomorrow AM so I am going to make this brief.

Non sequitur.

The point of my post was not to critique American ignorance of overseas things - why should I want my personal comparative advantage eroded - but to clarify for mssmith why his post was so utterly ninnyheaded.

Although there might be an outside chance that if there were less decembers and more toms in America, that some of the less egregiously stupid policies -and this from a realpolitik POV- that the US has purused in FP might have been avoided. However one rarely loses money by underestimating the intelligence and analytical capacity of others.

89

Allende took property from people. Some call it an atrocity when Israel destroy property belonging to certain Palestinians. (They’re believed to be mass murderers, but never mind the provocation.) Anyhow, if destruction of property is an atrocity, then taking property must be one.

One of the cites talks about the number of people killed. Not only did the Pinochet forces kill and “disappear” their enemies, it’s also the case that the enemy killed Pinochet forces. If one is an atrocity, so is the other.

Now, some would say that this was actually not so much an atrocity as normal conduct during a civil war. But, if killing is defined as an atrocity, then both sides are guilty.

Again, I am NOT comparing the degree of guilt – simply saying that:

– the socialist side did some degree of killing
– their supporters on this board have not condemned them for it.

In short, my real criticism is not of the Allende forces, but of certain posters.

90

Godwin, anyone?

91

December when deomcracy returned to Argentina I was more or less 2 years old. In a way I, like you, have never lived in a dictatorship, still I know more about the subject that yourself.
You can’t compare the crimes the palestinian commit or the one’s pinochet opposition comitted wuth Israel or Ponochet ones. For a simple reason, Pinochet WAS the state. That means that what occurred in Chile (and in som extent is happening in Israel) is state terrorism. You like to talk about “proportion” well, nothing is worst than state terrorism. The state is supposed to check itsel and protect it’s inhabitants. Neither happen in a situation like chile.
You don’t know what it means to live under a regime like that, when anyday police, militar or para-militar personal can go to your home take you away with out saying for what and where. I hope you never have too.

92

So I guess we shouldn’t listen to any of your pro-Israeli arguments until you condemn the Israeli soldiers who fire upon and kill the Palestinians who are shooting at them?

What a load of self-serving dreck you’ve been posting.

Physician, heal thyself.