Dear istara
Whatta You mean “sell weapons to the Palestinians?”
Give, for Christs sake. It will be the end of the terrorists!
And to give is much more according to the Christian and Muslim believes.
The plan 1) We make funds for the Palestinian so that they can built up an army. 2) They can be trained in the EU countries, by the armies there. (We have very good armies in Europe, but nothing to do for the moment. Nothing to bomb.
Absolutely nothing).
Conditions:
They will swear by their God that they stop the terrorist acts and only kill soldiers that are attacking or occupying their country.
They also swear that they will stop anybody else to do terrorist acts.
Then we ship them back “over there”, and the killing can begin.
Then the EU-USA-UN (and all the other letters) will intervene.
Thus we get rid of the terrorists. They will be honorable soldiers!
Everybody happy.
Still, to Your question number 5:
I do not know why, but soon some of the guys in this thread will let us know.
They know everything.
While I am waiting for the answer why the Palestinians needs so much blood, after that the Israelian army came and protect them, You can read the story of Ellen O’Grady.
She tells how good care the Israelian army takes of the pregnant women, how they treat brick-laying terrorists, and let the water-tanks come through. (I assume a tank is a tank, so they shouldn’t come through).
It is amazing how these, mostly women, that I get knowledge of, are always speaking about a totally another planet than e.g. Fox News.
The reporting organ is islamic, but the story comes from International Solidarity Movement, what-ever that is, from Ellen O’Grady: www.iap.org/iraqbureen.htm
And if You want more news from Palestine/Israel, from these papers/news agencies: Independent Biased! DPA Biased! Jordan Times Biased! Haaretz Biased! Ynet Biased! AFP Biased! Guardian Biased! LA Times Biased! NY Times Biased! FT Biased! Newsday Biased! ICAHD Biased! Financial Times Biased! The Times Biased! Scotsman Biased! Al-Ahram Biased! Times Biased!,
go to the islamic (huh!!) page:
If You want more (biased) links, just E-mail me or ask here.
But do not go to the totally biased BBC. (government owned, trotskistic-anarcistic news media, only serving the dangeros socialist Tony Blair and his cunnigly hidden, secret intentions).
The good films they make is just a smoke-screen, invented by Karl Barks. NO!
No! NO! I mean Karl Marx.
Karl Barks was the guy who made these ducks that walks in the comics without trousers (that was another plot, in order to immoralize the Americans).
Sorry for side-jumping.
Palestinians turning against suicide bombing strategy. Yes, Fox News is pro-Israel, yada, yada, yada. Given the nature of the story that tends to add credibility to it. Usually they depict Palestinians in a much less favorable light.
I think the suicide bombing strategy has been counterproductive in the extreme. It has turned many westerners against the Palestinians and has convinced many Israelis that a military response is necessary. If the bombing stops, Likkud will no longer have an excuse not to bargain.
What the heck are you talking about? When did Israel fight the Brits to a standstill? Before or after it was established by the UN?
No, Israel was definitely not formed despite the international community. It was the international community, in the form of the UN, that gave Israel the legal standing to exist in the first place.
He might be considered a legitimate target (with a huge stretch), his death might even be defended as the only option (improbable and unlikely). However, the slaughter of 15 civilians along with Shehadeh’s body is NOT legal under any UN sponsored international agreements. It is in severe violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 147), and is considered to be a war crime.
Taking aside the clear injustice of Israel claiming that they can kill any Palestinian they want, with whatever means they feel like, without any spec of due process or rule of law. If you are defending Israel’s Extra-judicial Executions as precise then you are wrong. They are as pinpoint as a sledgehammer, and precise as a roll of the dice.
If you are defending them as ‘just’ then you are wrong again. These measures are in direct violation of Article 5 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Also Article 32, which requires humane treatment and is enforced by the prohibition of acts that are considered to be absolutely incompatible with the notion of humane treatment.
These are grave violations and are considered war crimes.
If you are defending them as lifesaving you are wrong, yet again. Despite the Israeli claim, these killings have failed to stop bombings and have in fact provoked the killings of more and more Israelis. This current upsurge in Palestinian attacks is directly linked to the Gaza massacre.
The act of creating settlements on occupied land is illegal under international law and is a war crime. Article 49 states very clearly:
The article goes on to state the fact that in the Gaza strip 1 million Palestinians are squeezed into about 60 percent of the land, while 3,000 Jewish ‘pioneers’ have settled on the other 40% in heavily guarded communities. The case made in ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES: A Guide, cites some settler facts such as:
The Israeli refusal of the ‘right of return’ for Palestinians is another injustice in itself. The reasoning that UN registered Palestinian refugees who have been sitting in camps right across Israel’s border for 50 years will not be let back in just for the sole fact that they are Arabs, is sick. However, couple that with the reasoning that thousands of people across the world (who may never have in their life set foot in the Middle East and who’s ancestors also may have never set foot in the Middle East) will be let in just solely based on the fact that they are Jewish (born or joined), is sicker. Also now throw on top of that the fact that not only will they be let inside of Israel, but if desired they can settle inside the occupied West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem even uprooting current families living there, the illegality of it all becomes mind boggling. This is a complete disregard for The Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states:
Israel has continued and continued it’s racist policies, not only against the right of return, but against any Arab immigration.
Yes, I would be angry about those civilians who die in crossfire, I would also want justice for them. Israel keeps Palestinian civilians (just the Palestinians, Israeli settlers are not subject to the degrading act of curfew) under ‘house arrest’, only to be let out for a couple hours a week. If they need food, they wait and starve. If they need medical help, they wait and suffer (or die). People can’t get to jobs (no money), children can’t go to school (no education) and if they venture outside for any reason they run the high risk of getting shot (or worst) by patrolling Israeli soldiers. To hell with the fact that this is a violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 1, 9, 13, 23, 25, 26, 30).
This is collective punishment (the very idea you professed to be against). This collective ‘house arrest’ is creating a generation of ‘Anne Franks’ in Palestine, it is cruel and unjust punishment for a occupied and grossly oppressed people.
I guess we have yet to see how Israel officially handles this issue, and who they consider to be ‘involved’. However, if you claim this as correct behaviour I have to ask, will the family members of Jewish terrorists be subject to the same (in)justice? On a side note the Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai said that he plans to revoke the citizenship of Arab Israelis who have been ‘involved’ in attacks on Israeli targets. He was quoted to saying:
The move has rightly been called racist by rights groups and the Jerusalem Post reported the minister as ‘evasive’ when asked whether Israeli Jews could face a similar punishment.
If you look at all the Israeli factors in Palestine you will see a vast network of economic oppression. The World Bank has made a detailed summary of Palestinian economic troubles: Fifteen Months - Intifada, Closures and Palestinian Economic Crisis:. Under the section of “The Causes of Damage” they cite some of the many heavy and crippling restriction placed on Palestinians throughout the West Bank, and Gaza as the direct causes of the current poverty.
The assessment among other things also tackles the lack of freedom of movement for Palestinians, that Israel imposes (which by the way is another human right that is granted to everyone by the UN charter).
Home Demolishing is not a tactic being used against ‘command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists’. Israel frequently raze the homes of ‘Palestinian relatives of terror suspects’, as ‘punishment’. Israel Kills Palestinian Militiamen:
Natives in almost every single colony from North America to India had extremists who carried out gruesome and often indiscriminate killings. Are you refuting this?
No, that is an example of ideal governance, not one of self-governance. Few self-governing countries have even achieved this, let alone had it set up since conception. When it started the USA didn’t even fit this bill and Israel still doesn’t.
Israel is a terrorist Democracy. A great way to use USA’s money to make nuclear bombs and produce Anti-Palestinian propaganda. The best proof that the Jewish people shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? :rolleyes: To get back on track from your rhetoric, the Palestinian Authority was not an ideal government, but it very much was self-governance (Palestinians who have been govern by other Palestinians). However, still I fail to see how former self-government should be a requirement to self-govern.
I believe Israel did have Hamas at the negotiating table, but decided to kill their leader (along with 15 other people) instead.
Don’t make such pitiful attempts to discredit my ideas and beliefs. 2. Israel OTOH is not calling for the destruction of Palestine, their are actively participating in the destruction of Palestine.
cite?
Taking aside the fact that it would be a good idea to issue a new charter, how big of an issue is this? Instead of focusing on which side a ‘kaffiyeh’ is worn, try to stick to major issues like the removal of Israeli settlements, or the assurance of a democratic Palestinian state.
The Palestinians were offered a state, but after over 50% of the original land was auctioned off by the British (Israel took another 50% of what was left over of Palestine after the war). Who had gained control of the land after WWI and promised Arab secession in the Middle East in turn for help defeating the Turks. Clearly the Palestinians people felt some injustice was dealt to them.
Your minor attack on the self perceived identity of Palestinians is disheartening and incorrect. The term ‘Palestinian’ was commonly used as a term for any one (Arab or Jew) living in the British Mandate of Palestine.
Correct, and most still are sitting in refugee camps. However, a large part of their grief is not due to Arab compliance but to the criminal acts of Israel, which actively and illegally (see The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13(2)) prevents reparation of the refugees.
Every single time they were offered a state it was under progressively worst terms, it should be clear to even a child that any outrage expressed wasn’t due to the offering of a Palestinian state, but at the unsatisfactory (and often piss poor) terms that they were given.
Cite?
I suppose those primitive Arabs should be grateful that they have a modern society like Israel, That is, only if over 3 million registered refugees weren’t prevented to return to their land and experience this ‘thriving modern society’, because those refugees are Arabs and thus not allowed. Or the previously mentioned vast policies Israel has to keep Arabs out of Israel.
What? Then it was a pretty big exception. The creation of Israel saw numerous Palestinians forcedout of their homes, villages, towns, and cities. This is a move, which created over 750,000 Arab refugees. This is fact! This is an act that has happened. The Israeli policy of “settle, displace, raze, and terrorize” has been ethnically cleaning Palestinians from the land since the conception of Israel and continues to this day.
Putting aside the Israeli refusal to the ‘right of return’, Israeli courts have often been unfair when dealing with Arab land ownership.
“The Jews’ fault”? :rolleyes:
Quit it with the “you’re right” crap. Massacres aren’t “the way to go”.
The main point of his speech was about how he loathes present-day Palestinians he cites ‘Haj Amin al-Husseini (a close relative of Yassir Arafat)’ as one of his reasons. This is a clear comparison of Palestinians (present day to before) to Nazi’s, thus invoking Godwin.
No, I question the relevancy of this fact.
Are Senior Hamas officials now the measure of Palestinians? I guess all those in the Israeli parliament (like Tourism Minister Benny Elon, and even Senior US Republican Dick Armey) that think that Israel should expel (ethnically cleanse) all Arabs from ‘Erzat Israel’, are now the equal of all Israelis’.
This is not required, Sofa King’s (and now your) comments are far enough to invoke Godwin, no need for more ammo.
The German government has also not actively attempted the murder and oppression of Arabs since 1945.
Oh really? Israel is a very urban populated country, which means there is a lot of rural space in there. Does this mean that Egyptians or Chinese can set up camps and settlements there?
“uninhabited land”? Damn it! It’s only uninhabited once the Arabs are moved out.
Damn straight, Israel was stronger. Israel happens to be USA’s goddamned sacred cow, with all the unquestionable support (political and economical) Israel gets from the USA. This fact clearly doesn’t show an Israel/Palestine conflict but an US, Israel/Palestine conflict.
Of course they are opposed to the existence of Israel, they have gotten nothing, but brutal oppression and ethnic cleansing from that country. Are you going to object to their right to be angry at Israel. Growing up under these same conditions if it were me, I might have a little resentment for the existence of Israel too.
What? Please explain this logic.
Civil disobedience? I suppose you mean like marches, or lobbing, or letter writing campaigns. All of which (and more) has been going on in almost every country in the world, including Israel itself (most likely people on this very board has heard of a march in their own city). Unfortunately Israel refuses to deal with anyone when terrorists are at large.
How about at Camp David the only thing stopping peace wasn’t the “Palestinian claim to all of Israel”, but the Israeli claim to parts of the remaining territory Palestine.
Maybe the fact that given all the hardships Israel has put Palestinians through, it still was in favour towards open talks with the Israel government. It dealt with them on a daily basis, and has even worked side by side together. Before the current uprising the PA was a symbol of Israeli and Palestinian cooperation.
Yes, “Camp David” is two words.
That poll does not in any way reflect the long term goals of the Palestinian people. It is only a refection at the current anger of the brutal Israeli tactics, and upswing in violence. To say that Palestinian children are being taught to “destroy Israel by any means necessary” then it can be said that Israeli children are being taught to “defend” Israel by any means necessary (and vice-versa).
Taking aside the fact that “collaborator” doesn’t mean moderate (I suppose if the USA had found an American “collaborator” working with Germany they were Peace activists). To say that Arafat has killed off all opposition is idiotic. The reason why most Palestinians don’t trust Israel is because of the re-occupation of Palestine, and the oppressive methods that Israel uses in it’s day-to-day operations. After all these tactics (which royally pisses the Palestinian population off) who is going to side with Israel? Arafat is good at killing his perceived enemies, but Israel (Sharon to be specific) was vastly better at it.
Or the cruel and oppressive rule of Israel which has been close to unbearable for the Palestinians to burden. Do you have a solution to all of this?
Your solution is poorly thought out. You forget Israel has launched an assault against Palestine, they have won a decisive victory, they have organized a Marshall Plan-style operation for the people, they haven’t rebuilt Palestinian society, and they have instead oppressed the people beyond belief. It is this plan that fueled extremist organizations such as Hamas who have nothing but contempt against Israel. It is this policy which makes the people support such extremist groups, it is these ideas which lead to further violence! It’s a simple matter of “cause and effect”. No matter what is done no amount of new oppression will make Palestinians more happy.
Home Demolishing is not a tactic being used against ‘command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists’. Israel frequently raze the homes of ‘Palestinian relatives of terror suspects’, as ‘punishment’. Israel Kills Palestinian Militiamen:
Natives in almost every single colony from North America to India had extremists who carried out gruesome and often indiscriminate killings. Are you refuting this?
No, that is an example of ideal governance, not one of self-governance. Few self-governing countries have even achieved this, let alone had it set up since conception. When it started the USA didn’t even fit this bill and Israel still doesn’t.
Israel is a terrorist Democracy. A great way to use USA’s money to make nuclear bombs and produce Anti-Palestinian propaganda. The best proof that the Jewish people shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? :rolleyes: To get back on track from your rhetoric, the Palestinian Authority was not an ideal government, but it very much was self-governance (Palestinians who have been govern by other Palestinians). However, still I fail to see how former self-government should be a requirement to self-govern.
I believe Israel did have Hamas at the negotiating table, but decided to kill their leader (along with 15 other people) instead.
Don’t make such pitiful attempts to discredit my ideas and beliefs. 2. Israel OTOH is not calling for the destruction of Palestine, their are actively participating in the destruction of Palestine.
cite?
Taking aside the fact that it would be a good idea to issue a new charter, how big of an issue is this? Instead of focusing on which side a ‘kaffiyeh’ is worn, try to stick to major issues like the removal of Israeli settlements, or the assurance of a democratic Palestinian state.
The Palestinians were offered a state, but after over 50% of the original land was auctioned off by the British (Israel took another 50% of what was left over of Palestine after the war). Who had gained control of the land after WWI and promised Arab secession in the Middle East in turn for help defeating the Turks. Clearly the Palestinians people felt some injustice was dealt to them.
Your minor attack on the self perceived identity of Palestinians is disheartening and incorrect. The term ‘Palestinian’ was commonly used as a term for any one (Arab or Jew) living in the British Mandate of Palestine.
Correct, and most still are sitting in refugee camps. However, a large part of their grief is not due to Arab compliance but to the criminal acts of Israel, which actively and illegally (see The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13(2)) prevents reparation of the refugees.
Every single time they were offered a state it was under progressively worst terms, it should be clear to even a child that any outrage expressed wasn’t due to the offering of a Palestinian state, but at the unsatisfactory (and often piss poor) terms that they were given.
Cite?
I suppose those primitive Arabs should be grateful that they have a modern society like Israel, That is, only if over 3 million registered refugees weren’t prevented to return to their land and experience this ‘thriving modern society’, because those refugees are Arabs and thus not allowed. Or the previously mentioned vast policies Israel has to keep Arabs out of Israel.
What? Then it was a pretty big exception. The creation of Israel saw numerous Palestinians forcedout of their homes, villages, towns, and cities. This is a move, which created over 750,000 Arab refugees. This is fact! This is an act that has happened. The Israeli policy of “settle, displace, raze, and terrorize” has been ethnically cleaning Palestinians from the land since the conception of Israel and continues to this day.
Putting aside the Israeli refusal to the ‘right of return’, Israeli courts have often been unfair when dealing with Arab land ownership.
“The Jews’ fault”? :rolleyes:
Quit it with the “you’re right” crap. Massacres aren’t “the way to go”.
The main point of his speech was about how he loathes present-day Palestinians he cites ‘Haj Amin al-Husseini (a close relative of Yassir Arafat)’ as one of his reasons. This is a clear comparison of Palestinians (present day to before) to Nazi’s, thus invoking Godwin.
No, I question the relevancy of this fact.
Are Senior Hamas officials now the measure of Palestinians? I guess all those in the Israeli parliament (like Tourism Minister Benny Elon, and even Senior US Republican Dick Armey) that think that Israel should expel (ethnically cleanse) all Arabs from ‘Erzat Israel’, are now the equal of all Israelis’.
This is not required, Sofa King’s (and now your) comments are far enough to invoke Godwin, no need for more ammo.
The German government has also not actively attempted the murder and oppression of Arabs since 1945.
Oh really? Israel is a very urban populated country, which means there is a lot of rural space in there. Does this mean that Egyptians or Chinese can set up camps and settlements there?
“uninhabited land”? Damn it! It’s only uninhabited once the Arabs are moved out.
Damn straight, Israel was stronger. Israel happens to be USA’s goddamned sacred cow, with all the unquestionable support (political and economical) Israel gets from the USA. This fact clearly doesn’t show an Israel/Palestine conflict but an US, Israel/Palestine conflict.
Of course they are opposed to the existence of Israel, they have gotten nothing, but brutal oppression and ethnic cleansing from that country. Are you going to object to their right to be angry at Israel. Growing up under these same conditions if it were me, I might have a little resentment for the existence of Israel too.
What? Please explain this logic.
Civil disobedience? I suppose you mean like marches, or lobbing, or letter writing campaigns. All of which (and more) has been going on in almost every country in the world, including Israel itself (most likely people on this very board has heard of a march in their own city). Unfortunately Israel refuses to deal with anyone when terrorists are at large.
How about at Camp David the only thing stopping peace wasn’t the “Palestinian claim to all of Israel”, but the Israeli claim to parts of the remaining territory Palestine.
Maybe the fact that given all the hardships Israel has put Palestinians through, it still was in favour towards open talks with the Israel government. It dealt with them on a daily basis, and has even worked side by side together. Before the current uprising the PA was a symbol of Israeli and Palestinian cooperation.
Yes, “Camp David” is two words.
That poll does not in any way reflect the long term goals of the Palestinian people. It is only a refection at the current anger of the brutal Israeli tactics, and upswing in violence. To say that Palestinian children are being taught to “destroy Israel by any means necessary” then it can be said that Israeli children are being taught to “defend” Israel by any means necessary (and vice-versa).
Taking aside the fact that “collaborator” doesn’t mean moderate (I suppose if the USA had found an American “collaborator” working with Germany they were Peace activists). To say that Arafat has killed off all opposition is idiotic. The reason why most Palestinians don’t trust Israel is because of the re-occupation of Palestine, and the oppressive methods that Israel uses in it’s day-to-day operations. After all these tactics (which royally pisses the Palestinian population off) who is going to side with Israel? Arafat is good at killing his perceived enemies, but Israel (Sharon to be specific) was vastly better at it.
Or the cruel and oppressive rule of Israel which has been close to unbearable for the Palestinians to burden. Do you have a solution to all of this?
Your solution is poorly thought out. You forget Israel has launched an assault against Palestine, they have won a decisive victory, they have organized a Marshall Plan-style operation for the people, they haven’t rebuilt Palestinian society, and they have instead oppressed the people beyond belief. It is this plan that fueled extremist organizations such as Hamas who have nothing but contempt against Israel. It is this policy which makes the people support such extremist groups, it is these ideas which lead to further violence! It’s a simple matter of “cause and effect”. No matter what is done no amount of new oppression will make Palestinians more happy.
Thank You, Efrem, it is a lot to read, but very interesting!
So, my question to all, still is:
If we do not tolerate Israel’s strongarm tactics, like I do not, is it morally right to send money for weapons to the Palestinians? If not, why not?
if they only fight an army that is occupying their land;Israel, Syria, Lebanon. (It has been told to me that the two later also are occupying Palestinian land, but I have no maps or sites about it. I also do not know what is ment when we speak about “the historical Palestinia”?
if their (to be formed) army arrests everyone that kill non-military people = terrorists
