Why do women always seem to want a boyfriend they don't need to sleep with?

[zephyrine]

One of the problems, it seems to me, is one that has been reiterated several times already in this thread: men seem to think that if they could just work out what the it was, they could acquire it. You can’t. It’s either there or it isn’t. But what constitutes it can change over time: what attracted me to someone at different times in my life isn’t necessarily what attracts me to someone now. Maybe by staying “just friends” your it will be exactly what she wants. Of course, by then her it probably won’t be what you’re looking for.

But here’s a hint: a man who is comfortable with himself is one who is more attractive than one who is willing to change himself to fit someone else’s identikit perfect man. This is what often appears as “indifference” or “aloofness”, but it isn’t, and it has nothing to do with being an extrovert, or socially self-confident. If you think you’re perfectly ok as you are, warts and all, you’re more likely to find someone else who sees that too.

[LurkMeister]

Back in antediluvian times I had a female friend. She had a boyfriend and I was recovering from a broken relationship which had left me a confirmed bachelor. We would occasionally have long talks about life and love, particularly when her boyfriend had done something that upset her. Every year around her birthday she would come to my apartment for supper (chicken livers and mushrooms in sour cream, a specialty of mine which she loved) and would stay overnight for breakfast (omelets, another specialty); she slept on the couch (I gave up trying to get her to take the bed while I took the couch). I would rub her back and feet. When she and her boyfriend finally broke up I entertained thoughts of us getting together on a more personal level. Before I could bring myself to “move in” she had found another boyfriend; they’re married and have two sons.

I never told her how I thought I had felt about her. Occasionally I wondered (even after I was married) how things would have been different if I had. We’re still friends, although we don’t see each other very often. At Patti’s memorial service she jokingly commented that now I was “back on the market” and reminded me that middle-aged widowers were considered prime catches.

I don’t know whether there ever would have been any “spark” between us. We had a lot in common. There was occasional casual flirting and suggestive comments but we never come close to having a sexual relationship. I’ve heard it said that it’s more important for a married couple to be friends than lovers. I don’t know if I ever felt any “spark” between me and Patti; I just know that I wanted her to be happy and that I couldn’t imagine spending my life without her. I have no idea what it was about me that attracted her; I was overweight, not particularly handsome and certainly not the most romantic person in the world. On preview, it might have had something to do with zephyrine’s comment. I had given up on trying to please anyone else and was living life to please myself.

Make of this what you will. I gave up on trying to understand it years ago.

[Chotii]

@LurkMeister

I’ve heard it said that it’s more important for a married couple to be friends than lovers.

Well, a lot of people get married because of good sex chemistry…and after a few years (I think I’ve heard 5, or 7), or during the first pregnancy, or after the first baby…sex changes. There’s less of it. Maybe there’s none for a while. If the relationship doesn’t include friendship, then there’s not a whole lot to hold it together.

No doubt about it, sex is bonding. But a marriage that can’t survive without it for a time seems, on the whole, to have been missing something really vital, and you can call it what you will, long-range vision, patience, forbearance, friendship, something. Friends can stay friends forever, after all.

[zephyrine]

@LurkMeister

I don’t know if I ever felt any “spark” between me and Patti; I just know that I wanted her to be happy and that I couldn’t imagine spending my life without her.

However it’s described: “it”, “spark”, “X factor” it’s not always about frothing at the mouth when you see someone, wanting to rip their clothes off in public and have boiling hot monkey sex NOW! Sometimes you just know that you could be perfectly happy fighting over who has the remote control for the forseeable future with that person. Wanting to make someone happy and being unable to imagine being without her sounds like plenty of spark to me.

[msmith537]

@zephyrine

One of the problems, it seems to me, is one that has been reiterated several times already in this thread: men seem to think that if they could just work out what the it was, they could acquire it. You can’t.

The “it” thing is different for every woman. Probably the best thing you can do instead of trying to be some phoney person is to be yourself…just more so.

[CanvasShoes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea’s Child
Maybe similar life goals. Maybe you’re also high maintence. I have a very close friend who is all of those things, but he’s an athiest who will never want kids. I’m religious and one of my goals in life is to have kids. I see no reason to go through those fights and I see no reason to date anyone who I can’t see marrying at this point in my life. As much as he is a gorgeous, witty, bright man.

So, say that instead. It’s the whole, “You’re perfect, just not perfect for me,” crap that I hate. Give me a concrete reason, and I’ll drop it without a second though. Hell, even “You’re way too ugly for me,” would be preferable. Don’t talk to me about spark unless you can tell me what the fuck spark is. All that leaves me with is the feeling that there’s something clearly wrong with me, but no clue about what it is. That makes me feel self-conscious around you, and disinclined to want to continue to hang out with you as “just friends.”

Well, I’m sure lots of people have already answered this, but there’s two problems with your complaints (not that they’re not valid) as stated above. First is that for a lot of women, it truly is a matter of chemistry and connection. And since that is something that you don’t know until it hits you, it can be hard for a woman to define for a man.

Second is that, unlike you, who would take it logically and just go “oh, okay” and leave it at that, a LOT of guys use the “well, it’s because of X, and Y” to start the “Oh, but I Can CHANGE X and Y, and I can BE what you want, just tell me what it is, I can be that”. ACK!!!

Like I said at the end of my first post, the last girl who dumped me told me exactly what about me made her not want me as a boyfriend, just as a friend. And it was mostly stuff that I wasn’t willing to change about myself, so I was more than happy to stay friends with her.

There was a guy that I dated for a while. He was funny, nice and very good in bed. So there WAS a spark, but this one was NOT the “right” guy for me. And when I broke up with him, he SOOO wanted to know why. And insisted until I finally told him the things that were part of his makeup, that just didn’t work for me, nor would they work for us as a couple. They weren’t “bad” things, just things that were dealbreakers for ME (though lots of other girls would probably be more than happy with those things). Again, unlike you a logical guy, THIS one, once he heard my reasons was all “you’re just saying that as an excuse, you don’t really have that much of a problem with those things, etc”. And a LOT of guys do the same thing, they try to “talk you out of” your reasons.

Quote:
No, you want some of the other qualities and spark. (I did the “just spark” thing. The guy was a hideous loser, but we sparked madly. Felt like my heart was breaking for about three days after I figured out it was just some random chemistry thing with no possibility of him actually being a decent person. I got better.)

Yeah, but it seems that I’ve got only those other qualities, and never, ever any “spark.” Since I seem to be in an either/or position, I’d rather have the “or” than the “either.”

Yeah, yeah, I know. “Someday you’ll meet the right yadda-yadda-yadda.” “Someday” doesn’t help me now.

It’s no more “fun” on the other side of the coin Miller and most of us HATE having to give the “sorry there’s not chemistry” speech. It hurts to hurt someone nice. I know there are some careless, heartless bitches out there, but most of us hate this part of dating. Not all women are going to be perfect at turning a man down just the right way. That doesn’t mean that she’s all heartless.

This isn’t a “let’s give nice guys the boot” thing, it’s a dating thing. Everyone has to kiss a lot of toads before they meet the handsome prince(ss).

[Miller]

@CanvasShoes

It’s no more “fun” on the other side of the coin Miller and most of us HATE having to give the “sorry there’s not chemistry” speech. It hurts to hurt someone nice. I know there are some careless, heartless bitches out there, but most of us hate this part of dating. Not all women are going to be perfect at turning a man down just the right way. That doesn’t mean that she’s all heartless.

On the other hand, if she’d pretend to be heartless, at least afterwards I’d be thinking, “God, she’s such a bitch,” instead of, "“Fuck, I’m such a loser.” It’d make things easier on my end, at least, if not hers. But who cares about her? She’s a bitch! Did you hear what she said to me when she dumped me?

But seriously, I know all that. It’s all very understandable, very reasonable. It’s just that after, and I mean this quite literally, never once in my life getting a different reaction, I’m sometimes not really in a reasonable mood about it. Sorry. I didn’t intend it when I started out, but most of my posts here have been more about venting than debating. You’re really not telling me anything I didn’t already know, and when I’m not on the boards (or, even more specifically, in this thread) I generally do a pretty good job of keeping this stuff in its proper perspective.

Also, on a completly unrelated note, you know you can do nested quote tags?

Like

this?

Last coupla times we’ve gotten into a multi-layered discussion like this, it’s been kinda hard to tell who’s saying what when you quoted someone quoting someone. Not really a big deal, just thought it might help you out in getting your argument across.

[SolGrundy]

@Miller

Part of what’s aggravating about the whole thing is, I’ve never once in my entire life felt like that about anyone. I’ve spent pretty much my entire romantic life being rejected for lacking an attribute that I’ve never seen in anyone else, ever. I’ve got absolutely no frame of reference to understand how important that’s supposed to be. It’s like being turned down for not owning a unicorn. Sometimes, I can’t help but wonder if the whole spark thing is just bullshit. Which is a much more comforting thought than the other obvious conclusion, which is that there’s just something wrong with me, I’m actually psychologically incapable of feeling like that about anyone, and I’m going to be alone for the rest of my life.

Whoa. Dude. You’re seriously fucked up.

You mean you’ve never felt that way about a person? That’s just bizarre! Everybody else on the planet has been in love and been loved by someone else before. There’s either something seriously wrong with you that makes you inherently undatable, or you just aren’t trying hard enough. Sure you’re not gay? Because nobody else has this much trouble finding the right person. There’s got to be something really different about you. Some fundamental flaw that everyone else can see, but you can’t.

There you go. That’s what it sounds like when you get what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear. And I hope you can see that that’s even stupider and more worthless than the advice you’ve been hearing so far. I’ve thought the same thing many, many times (except for the “not gay” part, obviously), and recently.

It sucks, but there’s nothing all that special or unique about your situation. It’s the same for plenty of people. That’s exactly why you keep hearing the same advice – because what works is the same for plenty of people, as well.

You’ve got no idea how many times I’ve had guys tell me that they went through the same shit I was going through and were only able to be happy once they did three things: 1) Stopped obsessing on it, 2) Stopped thinking “this has gotta be the one and I can’t fuck it up!”, and 3) Started thinking, “What’s the worst that could happen?” And I always thought the same thing when I heard that – sure, it works for you’re better looking than me/more naturally confident than me/have more money than me/heterosexual (choose one). That’s a total cop-out.

[CanvasShoes]

@Miller

Does almost 9000 posts on the SDMB count as “useful”?

I do the same thing. And I think it’s very useful, though I don’t have 9000 :D. I think that’s why I enjoy the Pit so much more than the more moderate forums. The mild aggravation I feel toward a moron someone else is ranting about, or even better, when an actual moron posts here, well…

It’s wonderfully distracting from the pain of being alone and having lost “the one”. And the way some of the geniouses here force me to think, or when someone posts about a subject that is difficult for me…It forces me to concentrate on intelligent retorts, and research to support my points, and so on.

Same reason I’m a semi gym rat. You can’t be too terribly broken hearted when you’re red faced, coughing up a lung, shaking like a leaf, dragging yourself out of the gym like a drunk crawling home on his lips.

Books help too. I read any and every books about men that I can, 'specially those written BY guys. (know your “enemy” and all that :D).

I also spend a lot of time training my psycho aussie. Hiking with her, and taking her to the lake, she loves frisbee and swimming. I won’t be home for another month, so I don’t have my “regular” job to take also help take my mind off of it. But generally, my career goes a long way toward “taking up my brain” so as not to allow myself to dwell on the “I’m going to be alone FOREVER” thing.

I don’t know the answer. It’s different for everyone. But you’re not alone, I know that’s no real help, but you are NOT alone in this.

[Miller]

@SolGrundy

There you go. That’s what it sounds like when you get what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear. And I hope you can see that that’s even stupider and more worthless than the advice you’ve been hearing so far. I’ve thought the same thing many, many times (except for the “not gay” part, obviously), and recently.

Hey, I never said the advice was stupid or worthless. It’s great advice, and I do actually follow it. It still isn’t working. But, whatever. I haven’t heard any better advice yet, so I keep plugging away. It’s still frustrating, though.

You’ve got no idea how many times I’ve had guys tell me that they went through the same shit I was going through and were only able to be happy once they did three things: 1) Stopped obsessing on it, 2) Stopped thinking “this has gotta be the one and I can’t fuck it up!”, and 3) Started thinking, “What’s the worst that could happen?” And I always thought the same thing when I heard that – sure, it works for you’re better looking than me/more naturally confident than me/have more money than me/heterosexual (choose one). That’s a total cop-out.

Already do all three. Really. Most of the time, I don’t even think about this. Hell, most of the time I’m actually happier when I’m alone. It’s just that, between the sudden influx of matrimony amongst my social circle, and then reading this thread, I got a little surge of self-pity going. I’ll get over it.

[CanvasShoes]

@Miller

On the other hand, if she’d pretend to be heartless, at least afterwards I’d be thinking, “God, she’s such a bitch,” instead of, "“Fuck, I’m such a loser.” It’d make things easier on my end, at least, if not hers. But who cares about her? She’s a bitch! Did you hear what she said to me when she dumped me?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Kinda like the “it’s easier if he acts like an asshole” thing.

But seriously, I know all that. It’s all very understandable, very reasonable. It’s just that after, and I mean this quite literally, never once in my life getting a different reaction, I’m sometimes not really in a reasonable mood about it. Sorry. I didn’t intend it when I started out, but most of my posts here have been more about venting than debating. You’re really not telling me anything I didn’t already know, and when I’m not on the boards (or, even more specifically, in this thread) I generally do a pretty good job of keeping this stuff in its proper perspective.

You sound so very much like my good friend/former boyfriend, the “ONE” that got away. This was a shy, chubby, totally geekboy who, in HS, was every girl’s “big brother” or “math tutor” and no girl’s boyfriend. Then right after HS, he joined the marines. He had had exactly one girlfriend at that point, who had promptly broken his heart before HS ended.

We met at a dance class, as just friends, and remained just friends for a few years. We did end up together, and went out for several years. We’re still very close friends, and neither has closed the door on picking up as a couple some day. He’s not quite ready to commit yet.

The point is, that even for guys that consider that girls probably think they’re “not cool, cute, sexy, manly or whatever” enough, there truly ARE girls who would love them. Even for self proclaimed “geekboys”. (in fact, after loving THIS particular geekboy, I’m a convert :D).

Also, on a completly unrelated note, you know you can do nested quote tags? Last coupla times we’ve gotten into a multi-layered discussion like this, it’s been kinda hard to tell who’s saying what when you quoted someone quoting someone. Not really a big deal, just thought it might help you out in getting your argument across

I managed it once, but I don’t know the right steps, so would appreciate help!

[Miller]

Just use them like nested quotation marks, really.

{quote}Poster X said:{quote}I hate tomatos!{/quote}{/quote}

The red quote tags are the poster you’re directly quoting, the blue quote tags are for the poster being quoted, in the quote. Of course, use square brackets in stead of curly { }. It’ll show up like this:

Poster X said:

I hate tomatos!

[CanvasShoes]

@Miller

Just use them like nested quotation marks, really.

{quote}Poster X said:{quote}I hate tomatos!{/quote}{/quote}

The red quote tags are the poster you’re directly quoting, the blue quote tags are for the poster being quoted, in the quote. Of course, use square brackets in stead of curly { }. It’ll show up like this:

Okay, great. I’m guessing you can only do that if you cut and paste though? Because if you click the reply button, the part of the post to which the poster is replying disappears. At least for me. Do I have some preferences set wrong perhaps?

[Miller]

Yeah, you have to cut and paste. So far as I know, there’s no setting to change that.

[Ryan_Liam]

here this’ll make you understand women

[Loopydude]

Y’know, there’s a fair amount of truth to what Harry said, sadly. It’s not that we’re just looking to dip our wicks in any moist spot. Give yourselves more credit, ladies. I think what it is is that we can’t be really close friends with a woman who we couldn’t ever possibly sleep with. It’s not that we’re terminally horny, it’s that connecting on a deep emotional level pretty much triggers a desire to sleep with you, if it wasn’t already there.

Now we don’t have to act on that desire, nor ever articulate it, but it can be distracting. It’s too bad women find this threatening and insulting. Gosh, as a guy, I wouldn’t have minded a few more women wanting to boink me because I was a good conversationalist and a shoulder to cry on. Insulted? Threatened? Are you kidding me?

I remember I had a close working relationship a while back with this woman at work. God, she was a sweetheart. A brainy Southern Belle, very attractive, very put together, smart, funny, almost supernaturally nice, helpful, you name it. I’m a married man, she’s a married woman. I never once thought of acting on some of the feelings she aroused in me, but oh did she ever arouse them. Damn! She was just…FINE. I love my wife; I have no regrets being married to her, what with her being the smart and attractive woman she is; I hope I would NEVER cheat on my wife, and I never once wanted to (well, OK, I never would have strayed for this woman at work, let’s put it that way).

Since she was super nice to everybody, I’m sure I was nothing special to this person, but if I ever expressed how special she seemed to me, I’d lose my fucking job! She’d probably kick me in the nuts, maybe bawl her eyes out because she now knows that I wasn’t just thinking pure thoughts at all times because I sincerely never thought of anything but that I “only wanted friendship”. Rather, because I had at one time developed a major crush on her, due to her astonishing wonderfulness, she’d report me to HR and security, and that’d be it, if I ever admitted as much. I’d be lucky to get a job stacking toilet paper in a supermarket after that.

My crime? Even thinking this woman is one of the most witty, humane, attractive, desireable people I have ever gotten the pleasure to know, and that if I had two lives to lead, I would give my left…well, you know, to get to know her better in one of them.

My GOODNESS! What an insult! What a dog I must be! I should have my brain washed out with soap!

So it goes in the crazy, mixed-up world of intersex friendship.

[CanvasShoes]

@Loopydude

Y’know, there’s a fair amount of truth to what Harry said, sadly. It’s not that we’re just looking to dip our wicks in any moist spot. Give yourselves more credit, ladies. I think what it is is that we can’t be really close friends with a woman who we couldn’t ever possibly sleep with. It’s not that we’re terminally horny, it’s that connecting on a deep emotional level pretty much triggers a desire to sleep with you, if it wasn’t already there. Now we don’t have to act on that desire, nor ever articulate it, but it can be distracting. It’s too bad women find this threatening and insulting. Gosh, as a guy, I wouldn’t have minded a few more women wanting to boink me because I was a good conversationalist and a shoulder to cry on. Insulted? Threatened? Are you kidding me?

Despite the fact that this fear was worded that way in this thread by a few women, it’s not so much that it’s an insult, it’s the more complicated aspects of it. And yeah, I agree WAY too much knee jerk “sexual harrassment” garbage happens to men out in the workaday world.

I don’t know why men don’t seem to get this, but there is JUST as much uncertainty, fear, longing for love and so on, for us as there is for men. We tend to fear the “I want you” thing, because we’ve experienced too many times where it meant, “I want sex, but don’t get hooked on me”. So when we hear a guy say that he is attracted to us, and we don’t feel the same, we feel a double whammy so to speak. Not only are we being appreciated for something which really, is not a rare commodity (sexuality), but we have to hurt someone we admire and care for with the stupid “I don’t feel that way about you” speech. And it’s yet another indication that the only guys who want us, are the ones that aren’t “the One”.

Some women take this to shrieking shrew blaming mode. But that’s not all of us.

My crime? Even thinking this woman is one of the most witty, humane, attractive, desireable people I have ever gotten the pleasure to know, and that if I had two lives to lead, I would give my left…well, you know, to get to know her better in one of them.

My GOODNESS! What an insult! What a dog I must be! I should have my brain washed out with soap!

So it goes in the crazy, mixed-up world of intersex friendship.

If she was as nice as you say. I doubt she would have truly reacted this way to the fact that you found her attractive. And I’m sure that being attractive, she was well acqainted with it’s downside.

We’re not all bitch trolls out to “get” men for their natural reactions. Honest. We’re not some perfect robots who have the exact perfect non male-damaging answer to the situation of the man who’s attracted to us, but we’re not attracted to him. Women can react in a human, and possibly not too pleasant ways too, and later regret that she didn’t handle it better at the time.

In other words, in the “why don’t you want me back” scenario, the man isn’t the only one sweating it out, and struggling with it. We’re not all sitting there flippantly dismissing man after man with no qualms or a bat of an eyelash.

[AbbySthrnAccent]

Interesting post Loopydude, a perspective I hadn’t thought about.

Canvas Shoes Solid comments as well.

Thanks to you both for sharing your thoughts.