Why do women always seem to want a boyfriend they don't need to sleep with?

The BBQ Pit
161

It’s pop psychology, sure, but I think there is a good bit of truth to that. I have a good friend who would constantly get annoyed with me whenever she tried to talk to me about her problems. She would describe the situation, and I would immediately respond with “maybe the other person is thinking this, and you could do this…” or “what if you did so-and-so.” Finally she’d say, “Why do you have to be such a guy all the time? Why are you always trying to fix everything? Can’t I just be upset about this right now?”

As matt_mcl pointed out, it’s not just “men” vs “women,” because all this exact same shit goes on with gay relationships too (I’m having to deal with it now, as a matter of fact).

But as long as we’re making generalizations, this is a good one: men are socialized to try and fix things. I want this relationship to be a romantic one, but there’s something keeping it from happening. What is it? What do I do to make it work? I’ve done all the requisite things – I’m smart, I’m funny, and I make good conversation, and I keep up with the hygiene – and yet you claim there’s no “spark” or “chemistry.” How do I make there be chemistry? Your saying that you just want to be friends means that I’ve failed somehow, and you won’t tell me how. I’m good enough to be friends, meaning I’ve completed some of the requisite steps, but you won’t give me enough information to fix the last bit that’s missing. So fuck you.

The only guys I’ve met who have been successful with relationships and dating, without being total manipulative assholes, are the ones who have adopted Loopydude’s philosophy. They stop stressing about it and just say, “who gives a shit? Fuck 'em all.” And everything changes for them, and they’re constantly surrounded by women.

It sounds callous or cold and unromantic at first, but it’s actually kind of a feminine mindset, when you think about it – it’s shifting the focus from doing to just being.

You just become happy and uncomfortable with yourself; you’re no longer fixated on what you need to improve about yourself to be the perfect person. You stop homing in on The One Person and doing everything you can to make that One Perfect Romance work; instead, you just take relationships as they come, watch them grow, and let romance do its own thing. And it just develops naturally.

And in an attempt to dispel all the bullshit about how guys are just horny, always looking for a warm hole to stick it in (nice!), maybe I can offer myself as a counter-example. I’m not sexually attracted to women, but I spent several years in a futile attempt to date them. And I went through the exact same cycles that have been described in this thread. For me, it wasn’t about sex, it was about intimacy. I’d cross that whole “sexual attraction” bridge when I came to it; for now, I just wanted a girlfriend. I wanted to be the first person she came to when something bad or good happened to her. I wanted to know I was important to her as she was to me. And whenever a woman said, “Let’s just be friends,” I had the exact same reaction – why? If I’m good enough to be your friend, why can’t I be your boyfriend? What can I “fix” that’ll make you want to be my girlfriend?

And I really don’t think straight guys are any different in that regard.

Alone?

162

Hmm. Freudian?

That should, of course, be, comfortable with yourself.

163

And you may be right.

Me, well, there’s a good chance I’d simply feel threatened. But look: I’m 4’10" which means that most men are not only a great deal larger than me, but overwhelmingly stronger; I came >< this close to being date-raped at 17 (which effected me for years), I was stalked and harrassed in college, and my visceral reaction to somebody who moves too fast, too intensively, or claims deep sudden feelings toward me that don’t seem justified by the amount of time we’ve had together, is to run screaming in the other direction.

But ‘boredom’ is the last thing I’d feel if someone started professing all this emotion toward me - particularly if it included expression of sexual desire - and I didn’t feel it back. I might very well go into panic mode.

Now, I don’t know the OP, and I don’t know the girl in question. Who knows? Maybe she’s a survivor of sexual abuse. Maybe she’s still hung up on an old boyfriend. Or is saving herself for marriage. Perhaps she has genital herpes and doesn’t want to tell him, or is afraid of getting pregnant and being dumped because it happened to a friend of hers, or something… Maybe a lot of things. And they all factor in, every single one of them. Or maybe it’s just as simple as, she’d like to like him the way he likes her, but she just doesn’t feel it and can’t make herself feel it, and knows that getting involved sexually would not make things better.

164

IMSHO, I think that even if a woman IS romantically involved, all the way with a man, that she should be paying her fair share of bills and dates anyway. And as far as the “anniversary type thingies” well, women need to understand that that sorta thing is difficult for a lot of guys and keep it to a reasonable number and type of “anniversaries”, even if she IS his wife rather than just a good friend.

If a woman IS just a buddy, then she should ACT like a buddy. Do fun things together, hang out, do things HE likes to do too, and none of the pseudo boyfriend/girlfriend stuff like anniversaries, or him hauling stuff for you.

If a guy friend DOES haul heavy stuff for a girl that’s just a friend, she DAMN well better be reciprocating by mending his shirts, or getting him tickets to great hockey seats or something.

If what the OP is talking about is a “boyfriend lite” that is, a guy that does everything a “regular” boyfriend would do, except he doesn’t get intimate boyfriend privileges (or, if they’re abstaining) it isn’t understood that they ARE engaged and that it IS going someplace romantic. Well then, that type of girl, IMNSHO, is a prick tease, a user and a little bitch.

Oh and I’m not only female, I’m OLD female from back when the poor guys WERE expected to always lug heavy things and pay for everything because “she’s a girl”. I never bought into that crap. Even as a barely out of the house 18 year old, I always insisted upon paying my fair share with both guy friends and boyfriends.

165

I understand that guys are often "goal oriented, and that they’ll feel, when in the “sorry there’s no chemistry” situation, the ole “well, how do I fix it so that there IS chemistry”?

You can’t, no one can “fix” that. It’s not a fixable thing, there is either a connection, or there isn’t.

If it were just a matter of it being as **Miller[/] said (paraphrased) “well, I’m smart, funny, fun to be with, great, if I thought that about a girl, I’d be in love, that’s what love is”.

No, that’s NOT what love is, if it were, then people would be in love with lots of people of BOTH sexes dozens of times a day. There are LOTS of people who are funny, wonderful, that you have fun with and that are smart, nice and funny.

Hell, my BOSS fits these traits, and though he’s a good friend and a great guy, there is absolutely NO spark there, for either of us.

It is about what happens deep inside when you look into “the ONE’S” eyes. That twist, slightly scary, slightly cool, that happens somewhere between your stomach and your heart. That silly little thrill you get when you see “HIS” truck go by, how your heart beats like crazy when you’re getting ready to go out.

I wish I had the words to describe it, so that the guys who hate it so much would understand that it is NOT a failing on their part, but simply a part of life, like someone loving vanilla instead of chocolate.

166

I like the cut of your jib, CanvasShoes. (A jib is a small cookie with peanut butter and chocolate chips, right? Or is that the other thing?)

Though I have never cleaned up after someone else’s cat or been asked to treat a “just friends” girl to dinner, I think the point is still good. I would still want it to be clear what they both mean by “just friends” so there’s no misunderstandings later on either part. Maybe it’s over-analyzing it, but just stalking away and never calling her again is severely under-analyzing things. (And it’s overreacting, too, in my book.)

167

So, say that instead. It’s the whole, “You’re perfect, just not perfect for me,” crap that I hate. Give me a concrete reason, and I’ll drop it without a second though. Hell, even “You’re way too ugly for me,” would be preferable. Don’t talk to me about spark unless you can tell me what the fuck spark is. All that leaves me with is the feeling that there’s something clearly wrong with me, but no clue about what it is. That makes me feel self-conscious around you, and disinclined to want to continue to hang out with you as “just friends.”

Like I said at the end of my first post, the last girl who dumped me told me exactly what about me made her not want me as a boyfriend, just as a friend. And it was mostly stuff that I wasn’t willing to change about myself, so I was more than happy to stay friends with her.

Yeah, but it seems that I’ve got only those other qualities, and never, ever any “spark.” Since I seem to be in an either/or position, I’d rather have the “or” than the “either.”

Yeah, yeah, I know. “Someday you’ll meet the right yadda-yadda-yadda.” “Someday” doesn’t help me now.

168

I don’t know about the OP, but that’s exactly where my anger in this thread is coming from. Being the “boyfriend lite” is hell, because after so long being treated as a surrogate boyfriend, I developed strong romantic feelings. How could I not?

Regarding the point about male and female friendships: They are very different. I’ve had close friendships with both, and I also had a “3-way” friendship where I would occasional get a “fly on the wall” perspective of two girlfriends. (Not lesbians, nothing sexual in the “3-way” remark.)

Male-male friendships are not similar, in any way whatsoever, to any friendship involving a girl. So when women say “my friendships with men and women are the same”, they are stating the obvious because both kinds involve a woman: them.

Friendships between guys do not resemble any kind of friendship that women have. This is what I was alluding to last page; it has nothing to do with cheating.

169

Back when I was being asked repeatedly to marry my old friend M, there was no way I could tell him the truth. How do you tell someone that their facial expressions are so over-exaggerated, that you could talk to them on the phone for hours but you want to leave the room after 15 minutes alone with them? What good is it to say, I’ve been asking you for years not to call me cutesy pet names, which are the realm of lovers and childhood friends, and you keep doing it, and it rules you out?

They sound like insults. They sound like he was a bad person, or I was petty. But he wasn’t. I didn’t know why those things bothered me, but they did. They just did. And he couldn’t have done anything about his facial expressions anyway. I was hardly going to go into a marriage with a man who I could only tolerate (in person) if a 3rd party was present, even if I could talk with him for hours and hours on the phone and be absolutely happy. But I couldn’t say those things to him. I suppose to this day he doesn’t know why I turned him down.

170

All I have to contribute to this thread is that I don’t think men and women are meant to be friends with each other. I have never had a female friend in my life. “I just want to be friends” means “fuck off” in Fitzroy’s English Dictionary. I have never gone out of my way to be genuine friends with any young woman. I pursue women with the intent to date them, and I try my damndest to get this point across subtly but effectively.

I have no interest in hanging out with any straight women. (Lesbians I’ll be friends with, because there’s no sexual tension.)

171

Of course. That is what I don’t get. Guys feel that shit too. There’s an attractive girl that seems very interested in us, but we just don’t feel that special ‘thing’. There’s no way to fake that feeling. It’s there or it isn’t. And we have to fess up (if we’re honest and not looking to take advantage of someone).

But we do not understand when the attractive girl doesn’t feel that special ‘thing’ with us.

I know for me it’s somehow evidence of my unworthiness. (you see, the world revolves around me but I have an iferiority complex that I keep well hidden)

It’s really stupid if we stop to think about it. But we don’t.

172

Yes, yes, yes. :). Though it is not at all a value judgment about what kind of human being he is, it is a value judgment about how FIT or RIGHT he is. I mean, that’s what value judgments are. This works and this doesn’t, this is good and right, and this isn’t. Because of the deep emotions involved, it’s extraordinarily difficult for people to understand and separate a “chemistry” value judgment from a “value as a human being” value judgment, and that’s where the problems begin, but both value judgments exist. The bottom line is: As far as chemistry is concerned, some really terrific guys aren’t good for you. You can substitute the word “right” for “good” and still be totally correct, but many guys will, at that point, not understand what you’re saying.

And speaking of “chemistry”, another common problem that’s surfaced in this thread is that many guys just don’t understand the concept of chemistry and sparkage and don’t care to learn. To be honest, I don’t understand it from personal experience. I’m right there with Coldfire when he says that just about any attractive woman with a friendly and fun personality is a potential. But, lucky for me, I’ve had the opportunities to listen and learn and work my way through the term, even when I’ve felt just like Miller.

I think what Miller and a whole bunch of others need to get is that for many people, both male and female, there’s a lot of unconscious stuff going on that just can’t be explained in “concrete” terms. Being told that you’re an “asshole” makes sense, because it’s within our realm of experience. Being told that you’re a wonderful human being but not a proper FIT or not RIGHT doesn’t make sense, because our hearts just don’t work that way.

I was fortunate enough to eventually get over myself and finally admit that other people don’t operate the same way I do, so “sparkage”, even though I haven’t personally experienced it as it’s been described to me, must indeed exist. And because I used to be there myself, I can’t help but be sympathetic to a guy who’s about to lose it when he hears about “sparkage” or a girl talking about how it just isn’t there. The meanings of such things are totally alien and incomprehensible, and that can drive a guy right to the edge.

Guys deserve strong rebukes when they cross the line into assholishness, but they also deserve what I got, which was long, patient explanations, for which I am still grateful. And I’m hoping here that I can continue that trend.

173

And there’s nothing wrong with that, you know. If you’re uncomfortable being “just friends” with someone, there’s no obligation to. It works both ways.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of interpreting it as a control situation. She’s got something you want, but she’s not letting you get it. (And no, I’m not just talking about sex; I’m talking about the whole relationship). That’s not it. It’s a relationship. It’s got to be mutually beneficial. You’re not just trying to find the best person for you; you’re trying to find a good relationship. There’s no right and wrong here at this stage, there’s only a good fit or a bad fit. And it’s important to remember that if you’re not the right match for her, she’s also not the right match for you.

And I think a lot of people make the mistake that this is something that can be “figured out.” As if it were a rational process. It’s not! Sometimes, people can tell you what it was that made them not feel “the spark.” Far more often, it’s just something that you can’t articulate. When I think about the times when someone has been attracted to me and I didn’t feel the same way, I can’t say what it was exactly that didn’t do it for me.

And most of the time when I’m the one who’s feeling the spark, I can’t articulate what it is for me, either. It’s kind of a butterfly effect of a million different little gestures, mannerisms, phrases said (that they can’t even remember), exactly where I was at the time, my emotional state when I first met them, people they remind me of, a song that came on the radio when we were talking, etc. etc. And without even realizing it, I’ve gone from “hey, that was an interesting person I just met,” to lying in bed, wide awake, thinking “I wonder if it would be too weird to call them at 2 AM because I really want to be with them right now!”

Sure, it does. “Someday” means that you can relax. You can stop over-thinking it and stressing out over it and trying to put your finger on the thing you can change about yourself that will make everything work.

The fact is that there is absolutely nothing you can do that will make you a perfect match for every person you meet. You can’t make yourself infinitely dateable. The best you can do is to be happy with yourself so that you don’t absolutely have to be in a relationship. Then when you do meet the right person, it’s not a case of your finding the person who completes you, it’s the case of two complete people getting together to make something even better.

The only thing you can do is to try and meet lots of people. 99.9% of them will turn out to be incompatible in some way or another, and that’s fine. All you need is the one.

174

I know what you’re saying, but I could never do that. Maybe I’m just not assertive enough, or too concerned with courtesy. But I would never want to hear that, and I try to treat people the way that I would like to be treated. I’ve had similar conversations with guys before, where they’re saying “Just tell me what’s wrong,” and I thought, “You’re asking me to be brutal.” I don’t want to list what it is about you that I find annoying or just not fit for me. It’s similar to a guy saying “Well I would date you, but honestly, I don’t like the way you dress and you have a really annoying laugh.” That would really hurt me, while hearing the let’s just be friends thing wouldn’t bother me half as much.

Then again, if it’s something not too insulting, like “Our religious views are too dissimilar” or “You still seem to be carrying a torch for your ex” then I will definitely tell the guy. (But I’d probably have to be asked.)

But often, you’ll never get a definitive answer because the girl doesn’t know either. There’s the spark thing. Sometimes I find a man damn near perfect, but he just doesn’t do it for me.

From what you said, I would suggest trying Loopydude’s advice. Guys who are very nonchalant at first just make me like 'em more. It’s dumb of me to feel that way, but I still respond to apparent indifference.

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If you think about it, there are over 5 billion people in the world, 2.5 billion of whom are women. If you could meet them all, you’d be incompatible with 2,475,000,000 of them. At least. It’s hard to take it personally when you look at THOSE kinds of numbers.

I, personally, do not believe in the ‘one perfect partner’ thing, but rather a range of compatibility. I’m happy with my husband. I’m sure I’d have been happy with any of a number of men, to a greater or lesser extent. There’s a fellow out there (still not married) who, to this day, thinks it’d have been great if I married him, but our religious views were too dissimilar in those days. Also, he has the kind of personality that must challenge everything, and who enjoys a good argument all…the…time. He felt we were extremely compatible. I knew I’d have ripped his throat out within 3 days if we so much as took a little trip somewhere alone. I still count him one of my best friends. He’s a great guy. I enjoy talking to him, I enjoy bantering with him, he gives amazing foot-rubs, and sometimes I enjoy a good argument. But not all the time. So there you go. Incompatible by reason of entertainment choice. It’s a valid reason.

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Please, PaulFitzroy, would you define what you mean by ‘dating’ someone? Do you consider someone you are dating to be a friend? If not, what is she?

Do you experience sexual tension with every woman you meet, provided you don’t know their sexual orientation?

177

Part of what’s aggravating about the whole thing is, I’ve never once in my entire life felt like that about anyone. I’ve spent pretty much my entire romantic life being rejected for lacking an attribute that I’ve never seen in anyone else, ever. I’ve got absolutely no frame of reference to understand how important that’s supposed to be. It’s like being turned down for not owning a unicorn. Sometimes, I can’t help but wonder if the whole spark thing is just bullshit. Which is a much more comforting thought than the other obvious conclusion, which is that there’s just something wrong with me, I’m actually psychologically incapable of feeling like that about anyone, and I’m going to be alone for the rest of my life.

Most of the time, of course, I’m pretty sure both of those conclusions are bullshit. But when, for example, in one week, two of my best friends announce they’re getting married (and not to each other), and I still haven’t had a relationship that’s lasted more than five dates… well, some bitterness gets stirred up.

I don’t usually post to threads like this, because (no offence meant to anyone here) it’s always exactly the same advice, and it’s all advice that has never worked for me. Which, instead of making me less bitter, just piles a bunch of frustration on top of the bitterness. This time around, though, I needed a chance to vent. Better here than at one of the wedding ceremonies, at least.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. It’s great advice, really. There’s nothing wrong with it.

It’s just not right for me.

178

Just my two cents…

Hmm… I’d say you’re either unaware of it or haven’t felt it. The best way I could describe it is something that triggers a response in yourself that you can’t help. For example, I was incredibly bitter and lonesome before I met my girlfriend, and despite my negativity I can’t help but be a :wally around her. I don’t know what attribute in her makes me like that, but I don’t really need to know to know it’s there - because I can feel its effects.

In all honesty and sincerity, If I were in your position (and I once was), I’d just forget it. Be selfish, be bitter, and be frustrated. Just make sure to channel that energy into something useful, and don’t become misogynistic.

179

Does almost 9000 posts on the SDMB count as “useful”?

180

It’s not just useful… it’s awesome! :smiley:

Hell, I met my girlfriend on a messageboard. I’m biased, but I’d say that being out there, even if it’s just a messageboard, is useful.