Why don't women go for nice guys?

I’m sure this topic has been done to death a million billion times, but I’ll add my two cents:

As suggested by previous posters, women like guys who are confident. If you are a “nice guy,” but are still willing to walk right up to a women you find interesting, start talking to her, and invite her to spend time with you, you’ll do fine.

On the other hand, if you try to conceal the fact that you’re interested in a girl; pine away for her for months; and make your interest known in a half-assed, supplicating sort of way, then you probably won’t do so well, even if you are a “nice guy.”

I’m married now, have been for 3 years, and (knock on wood!) will be for the rest of my life.

Now, I’m basically a shy introvert (my aggressive obnoxiousness in the SDMB doesn’t reflect my basic personality at all) and in my single days, I was (to put it mildly) something less than a stud! And I admit, from time to time, I found myself asking the same, cliched question as the OP.

Oh, it’s NOT that I considered myself such a prize catch! Objectively, I can think of a LOT of good reasons women might not have been interested in me! I’m not particularly handsome or rich, and I have a host of neuroses/quirks that probably scared off potential dates (and if the other self-proclaimed “nice guys” look at themselves in the mirror, objectively and honestly, they’d probably have to acknowledge the same thing).

That is, I doubt whether women thought, “I’d love to date Astorian, but he’s just too nice.” More likely, they were thinking, “Astorian is really a nice guy, BUT… he’s a little too ___.” All kinds of adjectives could reasonably be inserted in there, from "nerdy to “dull” to “weird.”

And that’s fine. Hey, it’s even understandable. Look, there’s nothing in the Bible or in the Constitution that says a woman has to like me just because I like her (trust me on this- I’ve LOOKED!).

**

But in my my moments of depression, anger, loneliness and self-pity (what single guy doesn’t have them?), I DID catch myself asking “Why don’t women like me?” Because even though I KNEW loads of good reasons, it STILL seemed as if women had weird standards!

It often seems as if EVERY woman’s magazine of the last twenty years has had a cover story saying, “Why aren’t there any decent men?” EVERY female standup comedian (well, except Ellen DeGeneres!) insists that “The only decent men out there are gay or married.” Every phone-in advice show has dozens of women asking the radio shrink, “All I want is a nice man who’ll be good to me- why do I keep dating abusive jerks and two-timing scum?”

Get it- it’s NOT the “nice guys” who started this debate. It was the whining women who started it! It’s the WOMEN who’ve been asking, for all these years, “Where are the nice men?”

And when a semi-geeky single guy reads or hears these things, it drives him berserk! It’s THOSE kinds of omnipresent complaints from women that make the dateless “nice guy” fume! It’s THOSE kinds of gripes that make a Dilbert think (as he sits alone on a Saturday night):

"O.J. Simpson is a psycho killer, and he’s still screwing supermodels! Charles Manson gets a hundred marriage proposals a week. There are thousands of women out there who ADORE spouses who batter them. So, why can’t I get a date?

I mean, I KNOW I’m not the kind of man women dream of! I don’t even BLAME women for wanting someone better than me. But for all my faults, I’m stable. I’m employed. I bathe regularly. I’m polite. I’m kind. I’d never hit a woman or cheat on her. I’ve never been arrested. I don’t drink too much and I don’t do drugs. So, why am I alone, while scumbags who treat women like dirt have more women than they know what to do with?"

I KNOW that’s not a rational way to think. Eventually, even the depressed, self-pitying single guy realizes that (“THINK a second- would you WANT to date a women who’d consider marrying Charles Manson?”). If he’s lucky, he gets realistic, and eventually finds a worthy woman (I did!).

That is SO true. So very true. (And remember, ladies, astorian is married!)

See? This is one of the reasons why I reject the simplistic claim that women DO want nice guys. Even some of my female friends say that it’s not so simple, and that women who make such claims are being terribly naive.

Don’t be simplistic enough to believe that nice guys always finish last – but don’t be so horribly naive to believe that they’re what women are longing for, either. Well-adjusted women consider “niceness” to be a desirable quality, but the dynamics of romance are a lot more complex.

I dumped the guy who was stringing me along and ignoring me for the “nice guy” who I’d met. He had a weight problem but I didn’t even notice, because he was confident enough to talk with me (even though I was one of his first few girlfriends), and to continue being a charming friend even though I was “involved”. Waiting a little while for me paid off for him - we’re married now, and have been together (dating then married) for about a dozen years.

Here’s a “nice guy” anecdote. I knew a guy in college who was smart and motivated, gorgeous, friendly, and just a decent guy to hang out with. Yet a friend and I found ourselves discussing him, and telling each other how for some reason, we didn’t find him attractive at all in the sense of “chemistry”, and how weird that was. Later on I found out that his current girlfriend had been treating him like dirt and he’d just been taking it; she had once even physically attacked him. Sometimes chemistry between people just isn’t there - or takes time to develop - but maybe sometimes you just pick up on cues that perhaps this person isn’t the right one for you. Who knows, maybe we both sensed “doormat” or “victim” or something.

Anyway, various other posters hit it on the head - some “nice guys” aren’t nice; and some women are emotionally messed up to a certain extent so that they go for jerks or addicts or whatever other type of screwed-up guy.

Er, I can’t quite agree with that. Having that kind of boldness can help, but sometimes, guys still don’t “do fine” despite that. After all, there are other factors to consider too – good looks, refinement, racial barriers, and much more.

Throughout this thread, I’ve cautioned against accepting the claim that niceness is a loser quality. At the same time though, I don’t think boldness and cockiness will guarantee “doing fine.” It helps, but unfortunately for some, the deck is stacked against them.

All the guys I date are nice. But that is the common denominator and for myself there has to be more, other factors come into play, like chemistry etc.

Because all you nice guys are busy going after other chicks. ;).

Seriously, though. I have a friend who constantly gets hung up on one insanely hot chick after another. He’s way romantic in going about it, to be sure; he buys them gifts and flowers and writes them poetry and says the sweetest things about wanting to spend the rest of his life with the person. He’s still in his teens (and, for better or worse, has stopped doing this).

This strategy, unfortunately, was not successful. Why? Well, I can’t say for sure; I haven’t exactly interviewed the prospective dates or anything. However, I’m pretty sure that it was because he scared them off.

I’ll be honest; in looking for a hypothetical first date during my high school years, my first concern really wasn’t “hmm, is this person going to be totally devoted to me and get married to me and be all sweet and stuff?” My thoughts were more along the lines of “okay, I want to get to know this person…I really hope I can stand him.”

Younger women–I’d daresay into the mid-twenties–are somewhat offput by men who propose marriage before the first date. (Older women might be, as well, but I’m not really in a position to know whether they are or aren’t; wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of them were). Dammit, we just want to go on a date first, that’s all.

In contrast, my ex–who was a total jackass, which is why he is my ex–has/had a much more practical dating strategy. It was more along the lines of, “hey, I kinda like you; want to go get coffee/dinner sometime?” Granted, it didn’t smack of niceness and romance, but it was a lot less intimidating.

That’s pretty much the only situation in which a guy’s inherent niceness (or sense of romance, as it were) could get in the way, at least that I can think of.

As a sidenote. . .I’ve seen “nice guys” consistently go after beautiful chicks who weren’t worth their time (abusive, stuck-up, immature, slutty, etc.) while ignoring girls who were plain, but had fantastic personalities–loving, nurturing, intelligent, fun-loving. So it goes both ways, really. As much as people hate to admit it, there are other factors that go into having a relationship. Personality isn’t everything.

Speaking as to whether women go for nice guys…well, right now, I’m with a nice guy. I muchly prefer it to being with an asshole. So, yeah, we go for nice guys; we just don’t always have the option.

Gah. That might be true if, as a guy, you are in the bottom 1-2% of attractiveness. But otherwise, it’s easy to get girls, even hot girls.

See, some guys invest way too much emotional energy in each woman they are interested in. They pine away for months or even years. Not only does this turn women off, it greatly reduces the total number of women they approach. So the odds are against them.

On the other hand, if you hit on girls quickly and directly, as soon as you are interested, they will appreciate your courage. Just as importantly, you will resolve things quickly so you can promptly move onto the next girl if she turns you down. So you’ll have contact with a lot more women and numerically improve your odds. Further, you’ll gain experience and become more and more proficient at playing the game.

Also keep in mind that there are lots of women out there who don’t care about a guy’s looks; don’t care about a guy’s race; etc. It’s just a matter of meeting them.

Angel has an awfully good point! Since my divorce 2+ years ago (I was married right out of high school), I have dated ‘nice guys.’ The problem I’ve discovered with ‘nice guys’ is that they’re looking for something more than I am at this stage of my life!

Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing I respect less than a doormat, so don’t get the two confused.

I got the phone calls, the flowers and romance - but when I got the marriage proposals despite the fact that I made it VERY clear up front in all cases that I’m not ready for that and its NOT what I’m looking for right now! It had nothing to do with the fact that they were nice guys and everything to do with timing…

So, nice guys, persist! Someday that nice girl you’ve been keeping your eye on will be at the same place as you, and things will click! And…

:rolleyes: quit whining - nobody ever said it would be easy!

A woman chooses her friends by how they treat her. If you are genuinely nice to a woman (not phony) and treat her with respect, she will probably become a close friend and place a lot of value on your relationship. This does not mean she will be sexually attracted to you, which is really what this ‘Why don’t women go for nice guys’ boils down to. Our instincts determine who we want to fuck, and so far choosing mates who are in good physical shape and aggressively masculine has worked pretty well for women over the millenia. Men are much less discriminate, as it doesn’t hurt our reproductive capacity at all to father as many children as possible.

You may be able to coax a good friend who doesn’t find you particularly attractive into having sex with you, but she will probably end up screwing some guy you consider a ‘jerk’.

BTW, don’t be too discouraged if you have an ugly face. I’ve known plenty of ‘ugly’ guys who had no trouble getting women. By ugly I do not mean ‘extremely out of shape’ or ‘exhibiting symptoms of poor health’ - those are turn-offs, but if you are in reasonably good shape a plain face is not much of a hindrance.

Ah, chemistry—every time this topic is debated, it always seems to come down in the final analysis to that mysterious je ne sais quoi, “chemistry.”

Can anyone define it? Explain it? Heck, no. You’re just supposed to know when it happens. If only you could analyze it, get a handle on what makes it tick, you could have a hope of scientifically making it work for you. Tough luck, blokes. All I can say about it is, to quote Flip Wilson, “If you’re hot you’re hot. If you’re not, you’re not.” There is no rhyme or reason to it.

The Brazilian film Dona Flor and Her Two Husbands, starring the super-hot Sonia Braga, was premised on the OP’s assumption. Dona Flor’s first husband was a no-good party animal. He disrespected her, cheated on her, wasted all his time out gambling and getting drunk, and when he ran out of money, even beat her and stole her savings to buy more booze. But there was one thing he had to offer her—one very important thing. HOT SEX! Finally he caroused so much he dropped dead.

So she was alone, a widow. Desolate.

Then she caught the eye of the local pharmacist. A very decent, respectable gentleman. He proposed. All the neighbors who had disapproved of her late husband for being despicable now welcomed her new match as finally someone respectable.

But in bed he was a dud. There was no sexual spark. She quickly became bored and pined for her asshole dead husband again. She called out to him. So his phantom appeared to her. In the flesh. Straightaway they’re back to enjoying HOT SEX like before. So Dona Flor, thanks to the magic of Latin American fantasy, she was able to have her cake and eat it too!

Hmmm…I think that part of the “women don’t go for nice guys” is really a misunderstanding of what “nice” really means. I’m going to assume that we are talking about women here, by that I mean a mature female.

(This is not to disparage younger males or females…there is a learning process going on when we first begin this beautiful dance of the sexes. Both the males and females develop appreciation for “nice” people of both genders)

If nice means considerate, polite, and showing genuine interest in the lady inquestion, then women are attracted to this kind of guy. If nice means “whatever you want” all of the time, and “you are wonderful and I am too nice to deserve you”, then women are not attracted to that kind of guy.

I have a male friend who by all accounts should have women falling all over him. He is superior to me in looks, income, and the ability to schmooze. He is great at first impressions, but is an utter failure at maintaining any male female relationship. The reason is that by the second date, he is focused on himself and his pitiful state. I cannot hold a candle to him in looks, assets, or the ability to make a first impression…I’m very ordinary in looks, a bit overweight, and somewhat shy…and not to brag, but have been reasonably successful in M/F matters…and wildly successful when compared to my friend

Confidence, and a true interest in the lady as a fascinating human first and a (sexy yummy mmmm) female second will always come through in my opinion.

This question is flawed, because women only have your actions to judge you by. They can’t see into your soul and know if you are nice or not. Therefore it makes no sense to say that they reject guys because they are nice. Possibly, actions which are based solely on “niceness” are too boring, and thus are not attractive. But it is the actions, not the niceness, which are being judged.

I think astorian got to the real issue here. Most nice who have trouble starting relationships probably know the reason. Maybe they have a tendency to become friends instead. Maybe they feel like they are too nerdy, too unattractive, too poor, too boring, etc. In my case, I actually avoided relationships. I remember flirting with a girl in my math class for a whole semester. But despite the fact that we were getting along great and always laughing together, when she asked me to her apartment for a real date I didn’t show up. After that for some reason I started avoiding her. Now, of course it is easy to see the reason why a deeper relationship never started, and clearly it was not due to my being too nice. However, when we are bombarded with things like “there are no good men left” it is a natural reaction to think “Hey, I’m a good man, and I’m left!” So, as astorian said, most nice guys know the real reasons for their woes, and the niceness issue is a reaction to statements that there are no nice guys left.

:confused:

This has just been asked not that long ago.

Ever see Robert Crumb’s cartoon “Cave Wimp”?

The thuggish hunters control the tribe (while really controlled by the elder women), while the skinny Robert Crumb-looking reject cafeman hides in a distant cave and steals food. The “wimp” ends up making a lot of porno carvings which are in great demand with the hunters, which eventually makes him popular with the young females. It only lasts until the elder women find out about his corrupting the teenagers. They have the hunters drown him in the local swamp.

So it’s basically R. Crumb’s own life (or maybe the life of his great^10 grandfather.)

http://sir.real.50megs.com/comix/catalog/screen/Zap12.htm

So if we competitive males can’t spread our genes as “hunters,” we obviously must try to become depressed weirdo outcast cartoonists!
PS

My own “jerk attractiveness” theory: a certain SMALL part of the female population will have no interest in “nice guys,” yet a strong attraction to jerks. But every time they start going out with a particular jerk, they quickly discover how bad he really is, so they dump him and start looking for someone else. The end result: a large female population in long-term relationships with nice guys, and a small female population who are constantly unattached, yet are only in the market for “jerks.”

So I’ve also proved that all the good ones are taken? :slight_smile:

You couldn’t find any similar threads???

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=18957&highlight=nice+guys

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=44628&highlight=nice+guys

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=120642&highlight=nice+guys

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=111899&highlight=nice+guys

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=142832&highlight=nice+guys+women

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50686&highlight=nice+guys+women

At the pull down menu at the bottom of the page, scroll to “search forums” and you should be pretty successful.

I stumbled on this post the other day, but I didn’t have time to reply. I am really surprised by those who equate “nice guys” with being “weeny whiners”. What a crock! Let’s expose these womne for what they really are!

I wish to refute this one-sided accusation by proposing the following: Couldn’t it just be that the nice guys are more matured and live a life far too incomprehensible to that of a shallow, insecure daddy’s girl? I think if these women got out of their sheltered little lives and experienced the real world (outside their soaps through which they live vicariously) they might just learn to appreciate a nice guy who sincerely cares for them.

But in reality, this will never happen. In fact, these women get what they deserve in the end. Hopefully, they marry the bums and then have the rest of their lives, once their eyes have been allowed to see past their pretty little (and conceded) noses to lament. - Jinx

We don’t go for nice guys because as soon as we see them we run away. Honestly. If a guy opens the door for you ladies, push
it back in his face! If he offers to hail you a cab, scoff at the mere suggestion! Find a nice, homegrown bastard to date, one that will slap you around a little and call you a bitch…
:rolleyes:

No, we really don’t do this. We go for guys that fit our type. We go for guys that we are attracted to. Nobody is intentionally leaving you out of the picture, you just haven’t found somebody that has you in their mind. There’s a hundred other threads exactly like these, and it is really not becoming of any guy to say how much women try to avoid him. Just chill out and be yourself.
-foxy

I’d like to know why nice guys never like me. I get the possesive and explosive ones. They pretend to be nice and say that they don’t like it when a women is too needy…then suddenly they want to be stuck to me 24 hours a day and yell and accuse and…ugh. Why won’t they be honest about what they want? Maybe I’m just a bad judge of character.