But our system isn’t “whatever the people say is law”. The Founding Fathers didn’t intend it to be that way- they put safeguards in the Constitution against the tyranny of the majority.
The majority of people in this country might like to declare Christianity our official religion. But we have the First Amendment as a safeguard against their doing that. That’s the way our system works- it’s not a simple majority-rules system. Maybe you think it should be a simple majority-rules system, but the fact remains that it isn’t.
Our courts are a part of that system, too. They decide if a law the majority would like to have is in conflict with the fundamental rights of a minority as laid out in the Constitution. It’s part of the whole system of checks and balances.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
Of all the religions out there, I would have thought the Mormons would be the last to promote prop 8. Due to the fact that not that long ago, the Mormons themselves were actively discriminated against.
::: sigh:::
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
FYI here is the ad mentioned in the LA Times article.
Things do move slowly. Maybe not always in the right direction, but they do move. Back in the late 70s there was a proposition on the California ballot that, if passed, would have required all school districts to fire any teacher discovered to be homosexual. It did not pass, but the vote was close.
I don’t think it’s possible to even imagine such a proposition getting on the ballot today.
Thanks for your response. I agree that the definition of minorities is open-ended and constantly in flux. So IMO, to argue the the majority does not have the right to oppress the minority begs the question of how to define the minority. In this case, I don’t feel that the definitions are as clear-cut as some people here have posted them to be.
Again I agree. This is the issue. . .being argued. To argue that gays deserve equal access under the law and are being prevented access to their civil liberties when that’s the crux of the argument seems circular to me.
Clearly, this has been the case. Civil protests have been a successful component of social change. History has shown this. My question was about the present and future. Does Antinor01 feel that this action will have a positive effect. I’m also questioning the timing.
Let me explain my vantage point. I live in a very conservative community (I feel like I live on Mars sometimes). But I watch them and listen to them and try to understand where they’re coming from. I’m not always successful, but I try. On the eve of the elections, there were dozens, if not hundreds of people in my community, on a night where it was pouring buckets of rain out in the streets with a party-like atmosphere of laughing and smiling with their “Yes on 8” signs. I did not see a single “No on 8” sign until the following day when the election had already passed.
Now if a bunch of people held a demonstration like the ones I’ve seen in this thread where people are picketing with “No on 8” signs, IMO it would just look like “sour grapes” to the people who were standing on the streets with “Yes on 8” signs in the pouring rain.
I would think the same if 20% of African-Americans voted for Obama and protested if he didn’t get elected that it was discriminatory. . the day after the election.
That said, if Antinor01 answered that he felt that this was great timing and a well-placed display of the arguments, I’d be interested to hear his thoughts on why.
I feel that I’m very aware that the recognition of minority and oppressed populations has been in a state of evolution. It seems to me that some people in this thread have the whole issue decided. I think it’s still evolving. . .particularly around the rights of gays in this country.
It sounds like you’re saying that as society progresses, we will all become more accepting as we look at our prejudices and bigotries. I disagree with this sentiment. I think that we will always have marginalized classes. I think that the people who make up these classes will change over time, but that there will always be those people who are seen as less than others.
I think we’re saying the same thing here. The onion is infinite. Discrimination seems to be a factor of human nature that we need to somehow control with checks and balances.
Attention is vital yes. As was mentioned in this very thread, a lot of people probably didn’t even think things through before voting yes. They need to see that their yes vote is causing harm. As I’ve said, I don’t know if it will ultimately help or not but sitting back impotently is not an option anymore.
How are fat people having their basic rights denied?
As has been mentioned elsewhere, that was a statement of his own personal opinion - the actual promise he made was that, despite that personal opinion, he would not introduce - and would, in fact, repeal (or, at least, attempt to) - legislation that restricts the rights of GBLT people in any way, including DOMA and similar things.
While I lost a little respect for him, as a person when he gave his personal opinion, I gained a lot of respect for him as a leader when he stated that he’d not let his personal opinion guide him in that respect.
I feel very similarly about Obama’s stance on the matter. He and I may not share the same belief, but we share the same principles of justice and fairness.
Just got home from the march in Silverlake. It was such an incredible feeling to be with that crowd of people all out for their rights. There didn’t appear to be any disturbances tonight and I didn’t even see any pro-8 people out there. All in all a great night.
I also spent some time thinking about the question of “why protest, why now?” and “Isn’t it better to play nice and bring people over with love and logic?” and came to a realization. These protests are not just about prop 8. Prop 8 was the last straw in a long line of injustices and discrimination. All along we have (mostly) played nice. We get put on TV shows as the comic relief, the funny gay gay that always has something witty to say. Of course he also never has sex, that just wouldn’t be funny. We get wedding invitations to Antinor01 plus guest. You know damn good and well what my fiances name is. We’ve been fired, disowned, excommunicated, beaten, killed, arrested, condemned by the religious right to Hell and had numerous other indignities visited on us for nothing more and nothing less than being gay. It was only 5 years ago that SCOTUS finally said…“you know, you can’t arrest people for having sex with another willing and consenting adult.”
No more. We’ve had enough of the game of playing nice and hoping our ‘betters’ will maybe give us some rights and respect. My entire life I’ve played that game, I’m not a confrontational person. But this is the line in the sand. I’ve had it. We will no longer play along and beg, now we demand to be treated as equals. As full citizens of this country. Our civil rights should not be subject to the whims of the majority. That is not what this country is about.
As it said on a number of signs and tshirts tonight…
I’ll do what little I can, for my part, though it probably isn’t much. But I’ll be damned if I just stand completely idle while another “Dred Scott” goes down in my home state.
Well, I’ve got a fresh Voodoo Doll coming in the mail, at least—I’ve had surprisingly good results with them in the past. Time for some manual karmic realignment.
P.S.—May I humbly suggest that Prop 8 opponents consider stepping up their breeding efforts? As a student of Cyril Kornbluth, I’m painfully aware of the hazards of prudent and foresighted family planning when your sociological competitors feel no such limitations. Especially in a democracy.
Yes, I’ve often thought that the intelligent folks should adopt the “full quiver” philosophy, since some times the best way to fight fire is with fire.
