I wonder a lot what makes marriages seem so easily dissolvable…
I have to assume that when most people make their vows to eachother that they honestly believe they are going to make it until death do us part. I have had many long talks with my husband about this and we’ve a few theories but no real proof about what makes a marriage work.
Some unions are just doomed from the beginning. You all know these people - when they announce their engagement you can just see the black cloud over them. One of my old bosses is one of these people. She is in love with the idea of marriage and with the fantasy of having the 2.5 children in a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence and yet her first marriage dissolved due to infidelity, her second also due to infidelity and differences over children (she wanted them and he didn’t) before the ink was dry on the divorce papers she’s moved in with another man.
People also grow apart. Usually when neither of them is looking. He starts spending a little more time with the guys and she with the girls and before they realize it they spend no time together.
Since I know I don’t have all the answers and neither does my husband we talk about things a lot. What is working and what isn’t. Where do we want to be in a week, month, year, decade, at retirement? Is what we’re doing going to get us there? We work hard to find time to touch base with eachother daily in a more meaningful way than just “hi honey - gotta run - supper in the oven.”
We’ve changed a lot too but we knew that would happen and are lucky we’ve grown together so far. Then again I take an interest in what he is doing even if I don’t understand it completely (like his software writing hobby) and he returns the favor (like with my fledgling creative memories business) and even the simple compromise of watching movies that aren’t “our type” to make the other happy once in a while (I’ve learned to appreciate star wars and he can sing along with Grease almost.) I rail against the people who belittle our youth and tell us to just wait - we won’t like eachother much in another 5-10 years and we will stop having sex too. Thanks for the rosy predictions! Part of what keeps us working together is our confidence in ourselves and our relationship.
We’ve been together 13 years and will be married 8 in September. Since then we’ve gone from clueless college kids, to newly weds, through infertility issues and finally having munchkins. We don’t fight, have never threatened to leave eachother (I see my friends do this and my parents did it all the time!) and are pretty much the couple that makes everyone else nauseus. Right now I’m a SAHM and he’s a work at home dad and we have a 3 year old and a 6 month old. I wonder what the girl is going to say at school when asked what mommy and daddy do! To her it probably seems like “nothing.”
I think you also have to consider that while divorce rates may have been lower 50 years ago, that does not mean that more people were in happy or good marriages. It is possible that one person (likely the woman in most cases) was trapped in the marriage because of an inability to provide for herself or her children if she got divorced. People often married out of necessity - it used to be that it required 2 people to run a household, raise kids, tend the farm, or just survive. There was no concept of “I don’t love this person anymore so I will leave.” There was nowhere else to go. The idea of marrying someone just because you are in love with them is fairly recent. Now people are able to provide for themselves, women can make money on their own and men can raise children.
While I think it is true that some people enter into marriage thinking they will just get divorced if something goes wrong, I would guess that is a small percentage. I think if you compared people in happy, satisfying marriages now and 50 years ago it would be about the same. Divorce rates could be higher because now unhappy people have the ways and means, and support to get out when they didn’t before.
No I don’t. Marriage is a voluntary association and it should be. As Kalhoun notes, “'til death do us part” is mostly unrealistic and should probably not even be uttered. I’m not the same person I was a decade ago. Neither is my ex-wife. We’ve remained friends all these years, including the 3 since we divorced. But there are good reasons we’re no longer married and it would have been ridiculous for us to have stayed married to keep up appearances. And I’m sure her girlfriend is glad we made the choice we did.
I think Velma hits the mark. Women now are much more able to be independent and aren’t as inclined to stay in an unhappy situation. And I think that’a a good thing.
Why shouldn’t personal happiness be an important aspect of a marriage? Why should people stay in an unhappy marriage. I can’t understand the attitude that personal happiness isn’t important.
Coincidentally enough, last week’s episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! tackled the subject of romantic love – “'til death do us part,” and all that. One point they emphasized (with the help of anthropologists and sociologists) is that human beings are not monagamous creatures – as are most other critters on the planet. The gist of the show wasn’t that divorce is inevitable, just that the notion of neverending romantic love is a myth sold to us by society, whereas most relationships are “rollercoaster rides” of varying length.
“You get on the ride, you go up and down, have some thrills, then you get off. And if you’re lucky, you’ll find someone to hold your hand during the ride.”
Its always been easy to get married, but any geneologist will tell you that divorce was uncommon prior to the 1900’s.
I think that divorce is more common now is because there is less reason for marriage. Men can find other women to have sex with -causing either the wife to divorce him because of his adultery or else females available for sex makes him want to get out of the marraige. In the past, before the sexual revolution, fewer women were available for sex.
Women are not financially dependent on males anymore for their livlihood. Women now have good jobs, and they are more college educated than males, so if they are unhappy, they are more than able to live on their own now.
The reason why there are so many divorces, is because most people dont realize that they didnt need to get married in the first place, until they were already married.
…is that divorce is a huge money maker for lawyers… the minimum charge for an uncontested divorce is at least $5,000.00. It si highly profitable, because it involves drafting a few documents and a couple of court appearences…so that is why you see local shysters offering free “divorce seminars”. Personally, I think that thereought to be damages awarded when one breaks a marriage contract-the man always get scewed, by the way.
When my husband and I went through his second divorce, the cost was about a grand, and he gave his ex $5,000 and all the furniture she wanted. The divorce lawyer didn’t make much at all.
Divorce, in my opinion, is the only civil way out of a relationship that isn’t working. I’m sure there would be a lot of “accidents” happening if there wasn’t a way to end it legally and equitably.
And the man usually DOESN’T get the shaft. The woman is usually left with the daunting task of raising the kids virtually alone and her (and the children’s) standard of living usually drops substantially. Yes, the father has to pay child support, but that’s his duty…not a punishment. Women pay child support, too.
If you and your business partner decide the business is failing and you need to dissolve the relationship, no one bats an eye. Marriage, in many ways, is the same type of thing. If you remain faaaabulously in love throughout the entire run, more power to ya. But there are more options today than there used to be, and people of both sexes are taking advantage of them.
Until last year, my wife and I used to look at our circle of friends and family and marvel and wonder at the fact that we were the only people who: 1) were still married and 2) were not married to someone who had been divorced. That’s right. Grandparents, parents, siblings, friends, and, generally, acquaintances as well.
Of course, my wife is now living with her boyfriend in California. The divorce should become final next month.
I couldn’t agree more. People have an idealized view of what marriage is supposed to be, and then when things get tough, many people don’t put enough effort into fighting past it. It’s easier to give up than it is to talk, get counseling, change, and compromise. While there are still some people out there who believe in fighting to keep a relationship strong, there are many who don’t. And unless both parties in the marriage are of the determined-to-make-things-work variety, divorce seems like an inevitable conclusion.
Now, obviously, there are some damn good reasons for divorce. Domestic abuse, repeated infidelity, losing the house because of a gambling problem, etc. But the “you’re not the man I married” story doesn’t make much sense to me (I’m young and haven’t been married yet, so maybe I’m way off). Of course he’s not the man you married. People change, and the point of marriage is to take someone into your life and cherish them for who they are despite the bad parts. Unconditional love. Possibly a bad analogy, but I see it sort of like adopting a child: this person will grow and change and you’ll definitely have differences of opinion along the way, but you love them no matter what they do. You wouldn’t give up on your relationship with your 5-year-old if he throws tantrums and says he hates Mommy, so why dump your 35-yr-old husband because he doesn’t bring you flowers?
Another thing: “till death do us part” is a hell of a long time now, considering the life expectancy is up around 80. Back in the 1800’s it was easier to go the whole way, no? With so many people dying younger?
This thread got me to thinking about the “why” of several divorces of people close to me. These were the stated primary reasons - who knows what else was involved. All are separate marriages, and all were first marriages.
He decided he wanted a younger, childless sweety - left his wife and 4 kids.
She decided she didn’t love him any longer and left with his best friend.
She didn’t mind staying married, but she wanted to live in her own place and have her own life (??) so he divorced her.
He lied, hocked her jewelry, stole her car, wound up in jail for substance abuse, eventually just disappeared. After the divorce was final, he called her all teary, wanting to come back. She was smart enough to hang up on him.
He was emotionally abusive - he had her thinking she was stupid and worthless before she realized that she was, in fact, smart and capable. So she left him.
Two cases (sisters) of she wasn’t able to conceive, so he left and married someone who gave him children.
She was mentally unstable (we pretty much knew this from the start) and when she got tired of him, she tossed him out - literally.
Interestingly, one of the strongest and most loving marriages I know is a couple who were both married once before. After those first marriages died, they found each other and have been living very happily ever after.
“Is always been easy to get married, but any geneologist will tell you that divorce was uncommon prior to the 1900’s”
True, but you also tended to have what are commonly called “grandparent’s divorce.” The partners simply lived in the same house, hated each other, had separate bedrooms, and lead a miserable existence. Not a good situation for anyone involved - either spouse or their children.
Give me no-fault divorce over that any day of the week.
To quote my niece, when my brother and his ex-wife got a divorce: “I’d rather come from a broken home than live in one.”
Feh. Would you cherish someone who changed and became a sullen, mean-spirited old fuck? Sorry…not me.
I don’t believe in unconditional love. If it existed, everyone would love everyone all the fucking time. It ain’t realistic. I have conditions for my love. And I assume I must behave in certain ways in order to earn other people’s love.
Maybe you’re right. Don’t forget I’m still young and filled with illusions just waiting to be ripped away be evil reality…
Maybe “unconditional love” isn’t quite what I mean. Obviously if someone becomes horrible and stays horrible, they become impossible to live with. What I was trying to say is that people give up too easily on people they are supposed to love. The feelings behind marriage are supposed to be stronger than “you’re cute, let’s get hitched”, at least in my opinion, and so I don’t see why so many people jump ship when they hit rough water.
Yeah, kid…wait 'til Mr. Reality slaps you in the face, sister.
I think it’s sad when people divorce over things like fertility or money. With fertility, you can still be in love with the person and yet not be able to get what you want or need from them. With money, it is usually a fixable problem if both parties put their best effort into it.
But with pretty much everything else, it’s a matter of evolving tastes that sometimes don’t evolve together. It sucks, but it’s the reality of modern life.
I’m the only divorced one in my immediate family and circle of friends, but out in the cousin ring, almost all are divorced, with no particular pattern. One cousin got married due to pregnancy, been together over 25 years. His sister got married due to pregnancy, divorced I think because husband was a jerk who couldn’t hold a job. Their brother got married, then divorced when his wife decided she didn’t want to be a grown-up and a mom anymore. Amongst their children, the divorce reasons have been “I don’t want to be wife and mom, I just want to work” and “found someone new”. And that side of the family is Catholic!
Over here on the Protestant side of the family, the only pattern I see is the couples who’ve stayed together were all church-going together…except me and my ex. He’d grudgingly go once or twice a year. So I think it comes down to a shared morality and value system, which was something my ex claimed to share, but really didn’t. He even admitted to me after the divorce that he just professed to believe in the same things because he knew they were good things to believe in, and things he wished he could attain. But alcohol and other women ended up being the things he was successful at.
I certainly wouldn’t cherish someone who becomes a sullen, mean-spirited fuck. But then again, I’m the idealist who hashed out the major issues with my wife while young…28,29,30 years old. Our ability to fight-well saved our marriage. More than once. I look at people who have been together with their wife and or husband for 30,40,50 years and wonder what it is they have that so many do not? I asked my elderly neighbor once when we were having a BBQ…“what is it about you and Bertha that has kept you together for so long…?”
Ed said - Because we respect each other, and we know how to fight…it’s been a while but then again…I guess you’d know after 40 years that your wife likes earl grey…and not constant comet…
And ya know that little bit of insight was really cool to contemplate. I’d imagine them fighting over certain things…maybe for years…but always resolving and learning new things about each other. My ability to laugh and cry has kept me sane, I’ll tell you that for sure…
My personal theory is that people often marry too soon. Every “whirlwind romance” among my friends that ended in marriage, ended in divorce. These people married while in LOVE. LOVE being that delightful stage of a relationship where everything is perfect, you see each other with rose colored glasses, and you feel nothing could go wrong, ever. LOVE is wonderful but so extremely self-delusional. It obviously was too much of a crash when these friends came back to reality. I know that in some cases these relationships do work out but the odds certainly don’t seem to favor them.
My husband and I took it slow. We dated a year and were engaged another year. Plenty of time for LOVE to cool down and for reality to set in. I still love him dearly. I’m comfortable with him. I trust him. He makes me laugh. But I am no longer in LOVE with him. People comment that we sound like an “old married couple” when we’re together. I take that as a complement and a sign that we’re going to make it.
See, the point you’re missing is that no one marries a sullen, mean-spirited fuck on purpose. Some people just get that way over time. Many things can contribute to a person’s “natural vibe” changing. Things that cannot possibly be hashed out before marriage. Now, you might say that you’d be willing to put up with whatever foul personality trait your beloved may pick up in the future, but it’s impossible to call it.
I knew a couple who wanted children more than anything. After the child was born, she didn’t adjust to motherhood. She never felt a bond with her child. She never enjoyed the day-to-day aspects of parenthood. She admitted she didn’t feel she loved the kid.
That’s not something her husband took to lightly. He found it too difficult to continually have to shield the kid from the obvious animosity the mother felt. Regardless of what they felt for each other in the beginning, things changed.
Some people take poorly to the sudden onset of poverty (and don’t think it can’t happen to any one of us). Some people can’t get over a big weight gain or any number of things that can hit a couple out of the blue.
I love the fact that you and your wife have a great relationship, and that you were certain you were ready for marriage. But life can spring some pretty ugly stuff on good people. I just hope you guys aren’t in the line of fire.
Yes. I took two very valuable lessons from my first marriage.
1 - The one year rule. Date for one year before you get engaged. One year engagement - minimum. (Does not include eighteen year Nathan Detroit style engagements.)
2 - Make sure you, your friends, and your family actually like the person you’re marrying. If the above tell you not to get married, they may be on to something.
