I was a firm believer in long, serious engagements. Then I met my husband. Two weeks after we met, we had our first date. Four weeks after that, we eloped. That was in 1983.
If my daughter pulled that stunt, I’d read her the riot act!! And I’d never recommend that route to anyone. But it worked for us. Of course, I was 29 and he was 27, so it’s not like we were kids.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I think it’s sad when people divorce over things like fertility or money. With fertility, you can still be in love with the person and yet not be able to get what you want or need from them. With money, it is usually a fixable problem if both parties put their best effort into it.
[END QUOTE]
I don’t think it is a problem of “not getting what they want” when people divorce over fertility or money. I think it is a case of adversity bringing out the worst in people. When things are at their toughest, it is hardest to cater to someone else’s needs (when most of us EXPECT to be catered to) or see things through another’s eyes. If both people have trouble dealing with the situation, what you have is a case of people letting each other down, because neither one is strong enough to take care of themselves plus the other one. Basically you have people turning into “sullen fucks” - in other words, different people than they were without the stress- because of the situation.
We had fertility issues. It was a big factor in my marriage turning sour not because either of us were upset at the situation, but because we didn’t like the way the other person coped with the situation - or lacked to see it as a situation at all. It caused us to grow apart instead of together since we did not see eye to eye.
I think money situations are the same - I don’t know that most people divorce because they didn’t get the money that they wanted, but that the stress of being in a bad situation made them different.
What it comes down to is actually being in tune with yourself and then communicating it. I think most marriages fail because people can’t or don’t communicate on the same wave length and therefore can’t understand each other. We end up operating on our assumptions of what the other is thinking and despite living with these people, we can’t know what is going on in their heads. In some cases, like me personally, I didn’t express my feelings because I was trying to be agreeable, to not hold my husband back. I didn’t want to be seen as a ball and chain. But I ended up resenting my husband for not filling my needs. I assumed he knew how much he was hurting me when he didn’t. I gradually found myself in a situation where I was terribly unhappy, but it was too late to ask him to change so drastically, since I did not stop him from drifting away from me. We found ourselves over time in a situation where our priorities were mutually exclusive to the other.
The first person needs to express their unhappiness for every fairly significant event in a tactful, well thought out way - not to accuse, but to strictly state the facts, state their reaction to the fact, and finally to state the likely consequence. Examining yourself to figure out WHY things bother you is a step in and of itself that most people don’t bother with. So at least within my experience, this is not the way people usually communicate. They speak from a place of emotion, accusing, and without stating the consequence. Often the second person will not change because they either don’t realize the gravity of the situation, they don’t truly care about that person, or they carry resentment of their own against the first person. “Why should I change if you won’t change?” We all seem to expect all of our needs to be met. We all need to agree that we should set priorities and decide where we are willing to do without and where we can’t do without. If your partner isn’t willing to meet your higher priorities, then the marriage isn’t worth keeping.
Take for example a man who isn’t “getting enough” at home. He tells his wife. She says she just doesn’t have the drive and ends the discussion. She probably doesn’t realize how miserable he is because it is a need she can’t identify with. She is probably also harboring resentments of some kind - he never helps with the housework or he goes out with the boys too much or whatever. She assumes he knows this bothers her, but he has no idea because it is a need he can’t identify with. They are now in a death spiral, unless someone can break the lack of effective communication.
The difference between people who stay together and those that give up if the union was fairly well thought out to begin with, is people who know their priorities, strengths and weaknesses, communicate them, and are able to compromise because the things they need are not mutually exclusive.
In the end it’s really all about resources and economics.
There are lots of reasons, some better than others, for the differential in divorce rates across time and this thread has touched on most of them, but IMO I think that the main reason people get divorced today is simply because * they can*, and I don’t really mean “they can” in the sense that the process is easy. In many cases, esp. with kids or substantial property involved, divorce is still an expensive, contentious and emotionally exhausting process.
By “they can” I mean that society’s enforcement bureaucracies and legal institutions are powerful and sophisticated enough in modernity to enforce and compel income transfer from the man to the woman when there are children involved in most (obviously not all) cases, and secondarily it is possible for a woman to make a generally survivable income on her own in most cases.
These two elements are the necessary wellsprings from which all the rest of the notions that people (esp. women) have developed in modernity of unhappy partners having “options” to dissolve their marriage and move on. None of these changes in attitude settled in as part of the social gospel of modern life until the resources to make these “options” operational were available.
I would like to think that my marriage will “last forever”. Eric and I just passed the six month mark of married life… but we had been together almost 5 1/2 years before we got hitched. We will be together for 6 years this June. So, when we got married and lived together for a year before getting married.
I had seen all his bad habits and he saw mine… so there were no secrets to hide there. We have lengthy discussions about nearly everything and we fight once in a while too. I just feel it is important to pick my battles, why bitch at him because he can’t seem to put his socks in the hamper- when he could do something in te future that is really stupid that actually warrants being bitched at 
.
As far as marriges ending in divorce… Some people, I think, are disillusioned as to what a marriage is (it is not all sunshine and dasies that is for sure). She doesn’t like how he squeezes the toothpast tube, or she refuses to work, or issues with having/raising kids…
I am 27 and the oldest and my parents are still married after 34 years, but they would fight all of the time when I was growing up and looking back on it I asked why they stayed together because they fought all of the time. My mom said that marrige is a compromise and that even though sometimes she didn’t always like my dad, she did love him. I did not know anyone whose parents were divorced, until the 8th grade when my best friends dad left her mom for a younger woman who he had incidently had a baby with :rolleyes: . Eric’s parents have been married for 37 years and he knew almost nobody growing up who had divorce parents. My sister (who is 6 years younger than me) OTOH, almost everybody she went to school with had divorced parents. Long married parents is a rarity in her “age group”* *broad generalization
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it is a problem of “not getting what they want” when people divorce over fertility or money. I think it is a case of adversity bringing out the worst in people. When things are at their toughest, it is hardest to cater to someone else’s needs (when most of us EXPECT to be catered to) or see things through another’s eyes. If both people have trouble dealing with the situation, what you have is a case of people letting each other down, because neither one is strong enough to take care of themselves plus the other one. Basically you have people turning into “sullen fucks” - in other words, different people than they were without the stress- because of the situation. [END QUOTE]
Well, we have some friends, one is hard-working and married to possibly the most unambitious woman who ever lounged on a couch all day. He wants to get ahead, but she refuses to do anything to secure a higher-than-minimum-wage job. And she’ll use the few bucks she does make to buy pot because she knows he will pay the bills. He’s bitter all the time, and, although they’ve been together over 20 years, I don’t expect their marriage to last. Yes, she has let him down. And I certainly wouldn’t expect him to ride it out forever.
Also, with fertility issues, if one partner decides having children is more important than the relationship, and the partner can’t have children, it would be foolish to give up your biggest priority. I think eventually the person who wants children would resent the one that couldn’t give them to him or her. I would hope someone would see the good sense in breaking that union for something more fulfilling.
Well, you have to keep in mind that women used to just turn a blind eye to things like infidelity or excessive drinking or just generally turning into a miserable old shit. Your husband quietly (or not so quietly) banging other women on the side, or slapping you around from time to time, or just being someone you couldn’t stand was just a part of being married. Besides, where would you go?
Now women tend to have higher expectations of marriage. If it’s not a never-ending parade of sunshine and roses and happy little bluebirds, it ought to at least be free of infidelity, abuse, and outright misery. Those things are unacceptable in modern society. So when it comes down to a choice between divorce and infidelity, abuse, or misery, divorce is the more acceptable option.
All quotes courtesy of Kalhoun
Forgive me for not listing every conceivable reason that, IMHO, divorce could be best answer. I did state that I was not advocating “no divorce, ever”. Perhaps you missed that line. As for your list above:
Absolutely not! I’m promised to take my spouse along for the journey, while I share in hers. Change is inevitable, how we handle it is our choice.
Again, abandonment is not limited to walking out the door. One can be abandoned while in the same room as their spouse. What you are pointing out are serious relationship issues that need to be addressed. All marriages will see some serious problems at some point. The reason some people stay married for a lifetime is that they address the problems and work them out. If you married someone who is not willing to work it out, then I humbly suggest that you either did not know that person well enough before you married or the problem was allowed to escalate to the point of no return before it was addressed.
If you are speaking about sex in particular then, IMHO, it’s not a reason for divorce. There is SO much more to a good marriage than sex. If my spouse decided that she never wanted sex again I would be very, very (there ain’t enough veries) disappointed. But I would still love her and remained married to her because our relationship goes far beyond sex. If tartar sauce no longer existed I’d still eat fish. If, however, you are talking about all intimacy, see the answer concerning abandonment.
Nor, apparently, did you agree to work for your (and your spouse’s) happiness. It sounds as if you want to hang around until the fun is over and then move on to the next joy ride. My question would be, then, why marry at all? Just “shack up” till the mood strikes to move on. Much less messy (except in palimony states!).
I’ve changed in my 15 years of marriage and so has my wife. Hurray! I’d hate to think we were exactly the same as we were 5, 10, 15 years ago. That wouldn’t say much for our personal growth, now would it? Some of my personal goals are different than hers as well. She has no desire to jump out of a perfectly good airplane while I am determined to do so at least once before I die. We have some friends in commmon and others separate. The point is we grow together as well as individually AND we knew each other well enough before marriage that our major common goals have remained the same. It isn’t easy, it takes hard work. But I commited to work hard for our marriage.
Then for Pete’s sake don’t get married! I can’t fathom how someone could utter the phrase “Til death do us part” and not mean it. OTOH, I don’t see the societal value of marriage without it.
I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. I don’t always like the things my wife does, but I always love her. The same goes for my kids. Unconditionally.
Kalhoun, we obviously don’t agree on the basic concept of what a marriage is, and that’s OK - so long as we don’t marry one another. I think that in itself goes a long way toward answering Phlosphr’s original question. I actually enjoy discussing this with you, I hope you don’t take offense at my answers. I am giving you my honest opinion. While you may think I live in fairy tale land, I can assure you that what I’ve said above works in my life.
Emotional abuse is a tough thing to screen for before marriage. I have a lot of experience in seeing how charming these abusers can be while they suck you into their insidious little game. And to them it is indeed a game. How far can they bend a person before they break them? Most abusers don’t start with the heavy stuff. They don’t want to go to jail. So at first it is a little comment or a backhanded compliment. Then they press a little further. If the abuser says “I don’t like that outfit.” and the victim changes clothes then it is a short leap to “I forbid you to wear that.” Once the victim complies there the abuser starts with “I don’t like your friend X.”
You can then see how eventually you have someone who cannot function without permission. My husband did a very nice job of helping me break the habit of constantly asking for permission. I did it automatically and without thought. Now I am much more confident and able to be myself.
Kalhoun - I suppose I should have said that fertility and money are not ALWAYS the reason as it appears to be on the surface, but sometimes just a catalyst. But other times it is the obvious surface issue because that was a priority to the person. Note that both of your examples show where two people are not communicating and not compromising on priorities that are mutually exclusive, the final point of my previous point.
With the woman who won’t work a steady job, I bet she doesn’t even know WHY she doesn’t want to get “A real job”, and therefore can’t communicate why she can’t, therefore the husband assumes it is because she is lazy and doesn’t value money like he does. Maybe part of it is true - maybe she doesn’t value money. It could also be an issue of self-esteem. Maybe she has a crippling fear of failure, maybe she doesn’t know how to interview well and is intimidated by it. Who knows? I bet she isn’t happy with her behavior, either, but isn’t willing to face herself, to examine her own WHYs of the situation. If the husband would help her find out WHY she doesn’t want a job, why she wants to smoke pot, then attack the root cause instead of trying to force to her get one and make her value the things he values without giving her a reason, they would get a lot farther.
This is not intended toward anyone in particular, but it just seems that no one gives anyone the benefit of the doubt, myself of the past included. Life would be so much less stressful if we would assume others are doing the best that they can WITHIN their abilities and situations, rather than assuming the worst. Just because you understand something and are capable of something doesn’t mean someone else is, because they have different skills, abilities, and points of view.
I’d like to take a crack at these:
what are the largest contributing factors to divorce for the past, say, 30 years?
I’d say more than anything its the hectic nature of modern living. Its very different now than in years past. Things move faster, we work harder and generally have less time in which to focus on family. Our work lives are crazy, management constantly trying to get more for less. Eventually people come to the realization that this is not what they want. That can result in divorce and lots of other “turning your life upside down” events.
Why do 1 out of 2 modern couples (religious or non) feel divorce is a viable solution for when things go wrong in a marriage?
Because thats what everyone else is doing, and who do you ask for advice when it comes down to it? Someone who got divorced probably. And also because its easier, sometimes, than fighting through your marital problems.
Why is divorce so wide spread? Why aren’t more couples working things out?
Again, because its easier, or may seem easier, to just up and leave.Why stick around with someone when there is a good chance nothing will ever change and you’ll live the rest of your life trying and failing to come up with a good compromise.
Personally I think it should be much harder to get married. I also think you should be required to get a license or certification before having kids. Otherwise we wind up with what we have today: a population of kids without 2 parents around. How will this affect things in 20-30 years? I doubt it will be good.
True, they may not have known each other well enough, but if someone is deliberately lied to, or deceived, the wounded party can hardly be held responsible for that. When you say “perhaps” regarding emotional abuse, I’m interested in knowing how you distinguish one type of abuse from another here.
Depending on the degree of untruth, I suppose. If it’s a big enough untruth that you’ve been deceived into thinking your spouse had the same goals as you, and it turns out he or she doesn’t, is that grounds for divorce? I’d say yes.
Or, it could mean that you knew your partner very well, but that partner changed over the years and is no longer the person you fell in love with. Egads! He or she may have even become a (gasp!) Republican!! 
Actually, it’s only your choice in how you personally handle change. Your partner may handle a drastic change in you completely differently than you would. You don’t know what monster you might turn into in your beloved’s eyes.
Again, people change – values change. You cannot guarantee that you will grow in the same direction or at the same rate as your spouse. The best you can do is hope.
I’m talking about physical intimacy that is being withheld for reasons other than health. And I maintain that if a spouse withholds physical intimacy, even if they maintain verbal intimacy, for reasons other than health, they’ve indeed abandoned the relationship. If you’ve tried and tried to work on it (some of the stories on these boards are downright heartbreaking) and your partner isn’t interested, it’s grounds for divorce.
Please don’t assume you know about my marriage and what I did or did not agree to work for. I’m talking about divorce in general. And I’ll also add that there are many, many reasons for getting married, many of which have nothing to do with love.
I didn’t utter it. As I said, I have no use for religious rhetoric in my life. Society has worked for thousands of years without this phrase being a part of every single union.
Would you still love them if they evolved into theives or violent people or compulsive gamblers or cheated on you? Or if they no longer loved you the way they used to? The point I’m making is that it’s not always in your control. You can’t say you know what the future holds. Yes, you can feel sure about your relationship but you can’t “know.”
Kalhoun, we obviously don’t agree on the basic concept of what a marriage is, and that’s OK - so long as we don’t marry one another. I think that in itself goes a long way toward answering Phlosphr’s original question. I actually enjoy discussing this with you, I hope you don’t take offense at my answers. I am giving you my honest opinion. While you may think I live in fairy tale land, I can assure you that what I’ve said above works in my life.
[/QUOTE]
Likewise.
I can’t say that people don’t get married while, at the same time, thinking, “If it doesn’t work out we’ll just get divorced.” That’s exactly what I was thinking the first time I got married. We’d been together for 3 1/2 years and my birth control pills decided not to work one month and I got pregnant. I was still going to college and wasn’t working and had no insurance… he was supporting me financially. My family and his family pressured us into getting married and, stupid as I was at 21, I married him. I knew it was a mistake and I knew it wasn’t going to last but at the time I felt trapped and I felt like I had no choice. Two years later we were divorced. Only cost me $800 for an emergency divorce and the whole thing only took 3 weeks start to finish. I was scared to get divorced because I was scared of being on my own and supporting my daughter but I didn’t want my daughter to think our marriage was “normal.” I didn’t want her to think it was ok for a husband to come home from work and toss back a 12 pack of beer and pass out on the couch. I didn’t want her to think it was ok for a father to throw his 1 1/2 year old daughter onto the floor when she tries to climb on the couch to wake his drunk ass up in the morning. I didn’t want her to think it was ok for a husband to grab his wife around the neck and slam her against the wall when she tries to stop him from drunkenly peeing all over the kitchen floor. :mad: I think it took a lot of courage for me to divorce him. Of course, it would’ve taken more courage for me to stand up and refuse to marry him in the first place but…
I think the divorce rate was lower 30+ years ago because women were scared to get divorced. Back then divorce was like being pregnant out of wedlock… it was shocking and embarassing to the family and wasn’t talked about. Plus they didn’t have a way to make a living and support themselves and their children so they really had no choice but to stay. Today women are self sufficient and can get jobs and take care of themselves and their kids and they don’t have to be so dependent upon a man. Being a single mom is really really really hard but it sure beats being in a really shitty marriage and being completely unhappy.
BTW, perhaps relevant to this discussion is an article in the April, 2004 edition of American Demographcs indicating that fewer people are choosing to marry at all in the U.S.
In 1963, there were 40.9 million married couples, or 74% of all households.
In 2003, there were 57.3 million married couples, or 51.5% of all households.
In addition, there are more married couples without children (27% of all households) than there are married couples with children (24% of all households). Single people living alone represent 26% of all households.
A majority of adults now marry later (59% in the 30-34 age bracket). AD hypothesizes that college-related debt is a factor when people choose to marry later, as is the shortage of entry-level housing. They project that as housing and education costs continue to rise ahead of inflation, people will continue to postone marriage.
On that we have no difference of opinion, except maybe the frequency that it occurs.
I say perhaps because I think the term “emotional abuse” has become a catch phrase that can mean “I’m not happy and I don’t know why” - much like the term “irreconcilable differences”. I have heard people say that they got divorced because they weren’t happy in the relationship. So? Why aren’t you happy? Can you articulate the reasons? Have you tried to work it out with your spouse? Without getting too metaphysical, happiness is a journey not a destination. If your happiness depends on what another person does - any other person - then you will spend a lot of time being sad. People will let you down, be they your spouse, children, friends, or strangers. Don’t hang your well being completely (even mostly!) on others.
Again, I have no doubt that this happens, people do get swindled. I just don’t believe it happens as often as people would have you to believe.
See? Some good can come of anything!
I can almost guarantee that you won’t grow in the same direction or at the same rate. That’s part of the beauty of taking a journey with someone else. With work and effort you grow together as you grow separately. It doesn’t take hope, though. It takes hard work and ample communication.
Sorry, but your response brought to my mind images of a desire for instant and eternal happiness. That just ain’t gonna happen. I truely believe that people today do not work as hard to preserve a marriage as was done in the not-so-distant past. I, like Phlosphr, would love to know why.
And many of them are wrong (IMHO, of course).
Yes. I would fully expect them to suffer the consequences of their actions, but I would still love them.
Admittedly I’ve personally never had to deal with this one. I know a marriage can sometimes survive an infidelity and still flourish. I have seen it happen. I can’t say with any certainty what my reaction would be any more than I could say for sure that I would take a bullet for my spouse. I’d like to think so, but…
[quote]
Or if they no longer loved you the way they used to?
[quote]
See, to me this is psycho babble. Of course I don’t love my spouse same the way I used to when we were first married. I don’t think our bodies could stand it. Seriously, our love IS different now. It’s something like the emotional love has been augmented with a conscious decision to love each other. Difficult to describe, but well worth the work that went into it. A marriage basd solely on emotion is a marriage doomed to fail.
I haven’t seen Phlosphr post here lately. Did we bore him?
I’d invert some questions…
Is keeping a dead marriage going a viable solution to avoiding divorce ?
Why are bad marriages widespread ?
Many have mentioned how in the past women depended economically on men. That meant little choice for the woman and the comfort of having power for the man. I say we should be thankful for divorce allowing us a second, third or fourth chance of finding someone to share our lives with.
Instead of wondering about divorces… I wonder why people still get married when society basically cares little about “official marriages”. Live toghether and keep those divorce lawyers starving I say.
Keeping a dead marriage going is not a healthy thing to do…but lying about a dead marriage and living that lie is worse in my opinion.
In my sincerest opinion, divorce is so wide spread because of a flaw in perception. When someone wants a marriage to work, and does all in their power to live with the inadequecies of their spouse (if there are any). Specific to this situation, resentment can begin early. Resentment can fester and grow and eat away at a marriage like water through rock. Eventually, the rock will fissure and break open, with no hope of being put back together. Much like a broken marriage, there is a point where the resentment has reached too deep, and one or more parties in the marriage are past their personal best to repair any damage. This can happen over years…or months. Sad.