[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
**
The point is this… you don’t have a right to ask forgiveness for others. To do so is to assume that they need to be forgiven and is arrogant and flawed ‘logic’
For you to pray for the forgiveness of another puts you in a position of judgement. I think your faith has a clear policy on judging others.
I doubt I am the only one who feels/thinks this way.
Hellllooooo!!!
Earth to Hastur!!!
Pull your head out, willya?
Tris was not asking God to forgive you.
She was asking you to forgive her.
As in, “on behalf of myself and me fellow Christians, I’m sorry for this bizarre little squirrel fella.”
Got it?
Hastur, I was asking your forgiveness, I wasn’t praying to you.
I have withdrawn that request. Don’t forgive me.
Don’t assume that no one else was offended by the assumption that failing to be Christian could be only the result of a character flaw. For that, I asked forgiveness of the forum, and with your single exception, I still feel that it deserves apology. The fact that I apologized for another was not an implication that I felt he needed my judgment, but that the forum should hear that his judgment was not the Lord’s.
You continuing anger over a simple apology is difficult for me to understand. However, you unwillingness to accept the withdrawal of that apology is perplexing.
Don’t forgive me. Hate me, if you wish.
Tris
Of course not. By personal revelation, I meant something that is truly personal, not something that can be truly and accurately communicated to another person. Calculus can be proven to anyone intelligent enough to follow the logic. Hence, no arguments, no Great Debates about calculus.
Spirituality, on the other hand, is something that cannot be proven by logic, only indicated by history or slight hints from science, one’s trusted friends, personal experience, etc.
BTW, seeing the recent flame throwing going on in here lately, thanks for actually asking the question, and not guessing at the meaning and going on the attack first.
Hastur,
My main point would be that no matter which position you’re taking on this whole thing, wow, man, that’s some ball of anger you’ve got there. At the very least, this is not the forum to display it. Your points are in danger of not being considered because of the delivery.
Hastur
Boy, I thought I had been the champion hand-stabber, but I surrender the title.
Too bad I’m not still an atheist, because now I have no opportunity to apologize to all the theists here on your behalf. As it happens, I am embarrassed for them regarding you, much in the same way that I am embarrassed for the faithful regarding FoG. Knowingly or otherwise, you have assailed the gentlest and most loving Spirit ever to grace this message board, and have aligned yourself against people you might have intended to impress. You see, most of the atheists here are people of high ethical character and great intelligence. It is likely that they are stunned beyond words that you have arisen in their midst.
I’m only thankful that I learned before you came that the Madalyn Murray O’Hair mindset is as anathema to genuine atheism as the Jimmy Swaggert mindset is to genuine faith.
(Sorry, moderators, if this was too stern. If you edit it, I will understand.)
Tris
I know you don’t need my encouragement, but I offer it anyway. May God comfort you. And may He bless your enemies and give them new eyes with which to see.
Thanks, Lib. But watch out where you throw those blessings! Don’t want you taking a hit from the shrapnel.
:rolleyes:
(Was that cruel?)
Tris
Cruel? No.
I suppose I can be something like the hapless kid who is trying to help his big brother, but who is usually more an annoyance than a help. At any rate, I do not fear the shrapnel from God’s blessings. I welcome that He purge from me whatever He discerns needs purging. If I cling to something that is a stumbling block to Him, then I am better off that He smash my hands that hold the thing than that He leave me alone.
Tris said to pray for forgiveness for all those not of the Xian Faith. That to me is nasty and judgmental. Got it?
No, Tris did not.
Get it?
Tris
Yes, everyone seems to understand, Hastur, that this was your original interpretation–that Tris was asking God to forgive those who weren’t Christian. What is perplexing is that you continue to cling to this despite the clarification from Tris and others that what she actually asked for was YOUR forgiveness (and other non-Christians), on behalf of Christians who were less than generous and open-minded.
That’s all. Why do you continue to return to your original reaction now that it’s clear it was a misunderstanding that you reacted to in a blatently discourteous manner?
Lib, Email me.
Sorry to do that in a forum. (Well, sorry to anyone who is not offended by apologies.)
Tris
Tris is a guy, see?
I’ll need more proof than an admittedly impressive beard.
Uh, wait a minute, no I don’t…
One has to admire im_a_squirrel’s trolling abilities. S/he has garnered 90+ responses in this thread, plus a spin-off thread which now has 70+ responses, all from a single paragraph. Not bad, not bad!
**
As you are not in Congress, you do not have the Congressional Power called revise and extend. Revise and extend allows you to change what you have said into what you would have liked to have said. This is the way Congresspeople and Representatives control the belated spin of their words in the Congressional Record(read it in Cecil’s column).
In this quote, which I have not modified, you asked for forgiveness of all those who are not of the Christian faith.
I found and still find this offensive and took you to task for it. I cannot see, though I have looked, and asked others, how it could be interpreted as anything else but exactly what it is.
Regarding Bob Cos 2 cents into this:
All I see from christians is intolerance for anything that is not their faith. What I see is monothetists running roughshod over others, as people of their faith have done for two thousand years. Blood has been spilled, innocents have been murdered, and all in the name of a deity that is supposed to embody love.
The inherent arrogance of modern christians that there is someone within this society that has not heard their message and that they must go out and reiterate it ad infinitum is beyond annoying. I have personally read more of the Bible than most who have bothered me with it. They come to my house, bug me when I am reading in the park, and at times leaflet my car. I only share my views if someone asks and I wish christians would do the same.
To close, I don’t feel I misunderstood a thing. The above quoted sentence is quite clear, and I feel as justified as when I first posted. If you and your bretheren still feel you must dogpile on me for your own defense, go for it. It won’t make you right or true.
Tris’s meaning has been explained to you clearly a couple times already. Your failure to understand it at this point makes you out to be an idiot. Luckily, I sincerely believe that the Christians here know better than to have their rightfully low opinion of you affect their opinions of atheists such as myself.
I have to say that I have occasionally taken offense at the evangelical actions of Christians. Here, however, people such as Libertarian and Triskadekamus have quite often astounded me with their expressions of faith. While my life experiences still have not given me a reason to have faith, I have a greater understanding of, and respect for, faith as a result of their posts.
Hastur,
Examine each of these statements, and summarize the difference.
I ask forgiveness of these folks.
I ask forgiveness for these folks.
Hint: check out the number, and order of the letters in the fourth word. Although the letters are very similar, the specific words formed by them are somewhat different.
I am really stunned by your overwhelming anger. I hold you in no specific ill will for your beliefs. I said one of the things stated above. You relentlessly imply that that statement means what the other one says. That simply is not so. I do not ask that you be forgiven for anything. I don’t ask that non-Christians be forgiven for anything. I ask the readers in this forum who are not Christians to forgive . . . [shoot, I can’t even remember who it was!] . . . and ME.
Tris
You misjudge taking you to task for your words as anger.
I think everyone is responsible for what they say and when they put their words to anything of any seeming permanence, they must be willing to back them up. Faith, like thought, must be able to stand up to questioning to have any value.
Hastur, seriously…you misunderstood. Everyone else understood what Tris was saying, and many of us are not Christian, or even theist. Tris asked us non-Christians to forgive some of the less sterling examples of Christianity. Now, they–the less-than-sterling Christians–might get pissed at him for that, but us godless/unChristian sorts weren’t insulted by him at all. Get it?
[Moderator Hat ON]
Waterj2, calling him an idiot is not appropriate or helpful either. ::sigh:: Will y’all please chill out and stop yelling at each other?
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Hastur,
Do “of” and “for” have the exact same meaning to you?
This is important. If you really think that is the case, please just say so.
Tris