I meant to say that he was in danger of looking like an idiot on this issue. I do believe that is an acceptable observation in this forum. I have no opinion on the matter of his intelligence in general. I apologize for being unclear.
As I see it, Tris (also let me apologize for bastardizing the unabbreviated version in my last post) is the highest authority on the matter of what he meant. I have never seen any evidence that Tris has ever misrepresented himself on this board. Therefore, I will accept his word as to what he meant.
Perhaps a better phrasing would have been to put the “of all non-Christians” part between “ask” and “forgiveness”. Yes, it was slightly vague the way it was written. To call Tris a liar because you decided to intrepret a mildly ambiguous sentence structure in a different way than he claims to have meant it begs the question of how you know better. How do you know better than Tris (and myself, Libertarian, Andros, and Guadere) what Tris was trying to say? Why is our interpretation of the sentence so blatantly wrong that it is more likely that Tris (who has earned the respect of pretty much everyone around here) is simply lying?
You answered my post with much anger, and I’m not surprised.
4 years ago, I didn’t believe in a God, and I was doing everything my way, and doing great at it.
One day, I asked myself, if God is there, then he can reveal himself to me. So I prayed thinking, if he’s not there, no harm, I’ll know it was foolishness, and I’ll keep going my own way, and I won’t doubt that anymore. I prayed, and 2 weeks later, he answered, incredible miracle. My unbelief turned to belief, and all of a sudden, I saw not only God, but “SATAN” also, and that’s why I tell everybody about God, and Jesus: because, , You’re a BIG LIAR, you know there is a God, and you him, and as long as you’ll live, you’ll let everybody know how dumb and foolish it is to give your life over to Jesus Christ.
And I’ve never physically hurt a single person in my life as a Christian, I have love for people, which is not self-seeking, and I appreciate people much more now. I go into prisons every Sunday to talk with those that want to come to a Chapel service. Those that have received a penalty for their crimes, know sometimes that taking God seriously is more important. Many don’t want to know God, and the thought of him, but haven’t yet received punishment for their crimes: lust, pride, ego, judgment.
I made my first real Christian friend 4 years ago. I know some Mormons, Muslims, and others but I’m not an expert in religious studies… But Jesus is my best friend, and I share him with everybody. Jesus didn’t fight all those wars, and kill all those people in the name of “religion”! Men did and they misused the name of the Lord for their own power and self-seeking motives which I believe were more of the nature of evil than the Lord. Even those that would mock God in the name of evil are blind to their own hurt and pain, and that’s why I share Jesus with you all. Because Jesus is peace, and joy, in this life, and beyond this life. Jesus is for the family, for ALL people groups and for all men and women. That’s why he died, not to accuse, but to free. Ultimately, he choses on whom to have mercy now, because he’s the King, THE KING!!! You can’t judge Christianity by what you see on TV, those are people. You have to judge Christianity on the fact that Jesus is or is not truly resurrected. If he’s resurrected, you can talk to him. If he’s not he won’t answer, if he is alive, he can answer. For you to find out!
Thanks for revealing your exasperation at my last post, it clearly reveals who you are, right now, but even that will change, as things will change for me to. When your life is over, we’ll find out, you your way, me my way. And by the way, there is some talk of all this Christian stuff: like notes on cars, people preaching, etc… But there’s way more evil out there in our faces everyday than Christian people trying to bring love to us (although you have to watch out for “cults”): pornography, , gangs, all kinds of wickedness that really hurts but that is glamorized on billboards and TV, and the internet, and movies. Just a thought, but God created this world so that people would make their own choice about the matter, and you are definitely free to yours. Signing off…
I know, Tris. I’m very, very sorry. I just re-read page two, saw my post, and about collapsed from shame. It was a typo, I know you’re a man, I’ll slink off now . . .
In light of the flame battle I will try to be clear.
For myself, Christianity has little to do with feelings and more to do with Philosophy. It starts thus;
There are, as I see it, 2 possible ways to veiw our reality,i.e. the physical universe, the spiritual realm, whatever you believe exists. Either it was created, or it just happened, i.e. is exists independently of a source, it is self-existant(I don’t know if that is actually a word, but I think the meaning is clear).
Personally, I am unable to believe that it just happened. Therefore my starting axiom is that all that exists was created by a thinking, personal being. God.
Given a self-existant, creator God (his name when asked was “I am”), I find I must assume a purpose for that creation.
To date the Bible provides the clearest exegesis of the nature of the creator God. However, I believe that this can only be found with open-minded study of the Bible. Truth is my goal, not happiness. N.B. I believe that God created the universe, but I don’t believe it was done at 9 am, some morning in the year 4004 B.C.
Given that we are all created by the same God, it would seem logical that much of our nature would reflect that, thus we have a startling similarity between many religions and ethics systems, also between the abuse of same systems. So we have Christian fundies trying to tell us the world was created in 6 days 6000 years ago, and Noah carried dinosaurs in the ark, and we have Hindu fundies saying that when a husband dies, the wifes should throw themselves on the funeral pyre, and Islamic fundies saying that America is the great satan, and carrying bombs in prams. If anyone has a problem with that, I would love to debate it, all accept the first axiom. I don’t think axioms are provable.
Please show me the anger? I answered it with questions. Let’s see how well you get around to answering my questions in your reply…
[quote] 4 years ago, I didn’t believe in a God, and I was doing everything my way, and doing great at it.[/quoe]
Newsflash: I do believe in God. So this answers my supposed motives and not what I actually said. And erroneously at that. Not a great start, sparky.
In fact, I don’t see you answer anything I asked, now do you? You respond to my criticisms of your post with a bunch of witnessing after saying I must not believe.
I will, of course, ask some more questions about some things you said while not answering my other questions. Let’s see you ignore these like you did the first, please…
**
Well, some people claimed to pray for YEARS and even a lifetime qwithout this revelation. Were these people not honest in their pursuit? Or did God not need or want them?
**
This supposes that one must need Jesus to treat people as you do. Familiar with Secular Humanism, maybe? Are you claiming that only followers of Jesus can act as you do?
No matter where you go with this, it’s a meaningless point, sparky. People who are not Christian manage this somehow, people who are Christian fail miserably at this somehow.
All this proves is that you personally needed to believe in Jesus in order to do soemthing that many others manage to do just because they feel it is the right thing to do. Donesn’t say much about you as a person, IMHO.
Fortunately, not everyone is like this.
**
This answers none of my questions and seems irrelevant to anything. Gee, some prisoners are Christian and some are not. This is not a huge shocker.
**
If you do not know about their religions, how do you know they are not right and yours is wrong?
Oh, and Mormons are Christians too, you know.
I snipped a bunch of blatant witnessing which came so far from answering any of the questions I asked you it is silly. I mean, you claim how angry I am and even go so far as to say…
**
…as in, my post shows what I am, yet you do NOT see that I too believe in God, and you cannot reply to anything I actually DID say. Funny.
Quick recap: I asked questions. Pointed, specific questions to answer your post.
You replied back that I am angry (I wasn’t) and that I don’t believe (I do) and then did not respond to a single thing I asked and instead just launched into how great Jesus is.
If you think this is good enough, you’ve got the wrong forum.
Yer pal,
Satan
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I’m not sure how you got from the fact that the universe was created, to the fact that a thinking, personal being creating it. Most of the universe is quite impersonal, made of gas and dust. Why should it’s creator be thinking and personal?
If you don’t like the idea of a self-existant universe, why do you accept a self-existant God? You seem to have the classic if-God-made-us-who-made-God problem going on here. And why do you assume, if God created the universe with a purpose, that the purpose is understandable or relavent to human beings? Also, people may create things with a purpose, but why must God behave in a likewise manner?
I think it is possible to reason why there are similarities between religions and ethics systems without assuming God created us. Religions or ethics systems that don’t promote ideas that hold a particular society together are rejected by that society or the society falls apart. Any abuses that disrupt a society too much are eliminated or they destroy that society. Therefore, we are left with a set of societies that have similar beliefs and similar abuses. This is exactly what is observed.
No they aren’t provable, however, I think you may be assuming more than you first thought.
Forgive my butting in, but that can be an invalid comparison. A man whose whole experience tells him that atoms and waves come from other atoms and waves might reasonably postulate an early universe with low entropy. And a man’s comprehension of omnipotence and omniscience might reasonably lead him to postulate an Eternal God.
If I’ve got to choose between a self-existant universe, which does exist because we can see, feel, hear, and touch it, and a self-existant “god”, of which there is no physical evidence, guess which one I’d believe in first?
Oh, I would grant you that, Slythe, were that the pertinent consideration.
I agree that because you can sense the universe (and most people can sense it in varying degrees — though some are blind, some are deaf, etc.) you are compelled to conclude that at least the tautology of atoms (your brain) sensing atoms (the universe) constitutes self-existence. But what you cannot sense, and what is under consideration in my remarks to Dr. Lao, is whether the universe is eternal or temporal. In fact, because the time-line is unilaterally dimensional — the past exists solely as a ghost awareness, and the future as merely an induced conception — there is only the discreet now. But, oops, even that is gone.
For all the other dimensions, you have traversability. For width, you have where you are and left of you and right of you. You can go left and right at will. For depth, you have where you are and in front of you and behind you, with the capability to go anywhere in that continuum. For height, you have where you are and below you and above you, and you can take yourself to anywhere therein. But with time, you have no choice except to recall your past, anticipate your future, and be where you are.
You accept physical evidence as proof of the physical universe, and that is understandable. I do the same.
But for proof of the Spritutal, spiritual evidence is required. Those of us who have this evidence, obviously subjective in nature since our Spirit is our own essence, are compelled by the same reason to believe in God. You might protest that evidence of the physical is repeatable, whereas evidence of the spiritual is not. But I would answer that you are wrong. The instrument for detecting the Spirit is the heart (our essence), and I submit that if you were my essence, that is, you had my DNA, my life experience, and my consciousness, you would see exactly what I do, thereby repeating the experiment.
Just because you can imagine a time in the past when the universe had lowest entropy (time zero) it doesn’t necessarily follow that the universe must have been created. People only really have a concept of time as a change in entropy. We remember instances of lower entropy because that is the way the chemical reactions in our brain work. Therefore, it is impossible to imagine a “time” before the time of lowest entropy because it has no meaning. In this context an eternal anything has no meaning. Our common everyday experience tells us that time marches on oblivious to the material world, experiment says that time is part of the material world. Sorry, but I’m not very good at explaining this. However, I think that a zero time in the universe does not necessarily imply a created or non self-existant universe.
Oh, I agree with you. It doesn’t necessairly follow. I have heard someone before define time as a change in entropy. But then, one could reasonably assert that that is the definition of motion (and many other things) as well.
At any rate, the universe, from God’s Absolute Reference Frame, is nothing more than the mis-en-scène for man to act out his moral play. God’s Godness is not contingent on His being the Creator of the universe, but on His being the Love Everlasting.
“The Bible is a breath of fresh air”
Proverbs 3:5-6 ‘Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowled him and he will direct your paths.’ My sister spoke these words to me when I was 19, and 4 years later they became more than ‘oxygen’ to my soul.
Who said God is ? If he’s not , he’s alive. The Bible says in Romans 1, we’ve all been given knowledge of God in the creation all around us. So to believe that there is no God, is to believe a lie (even you must agree to that since you believe in God). So those that don’t believe in God I would say to them that to them God is .
“Just some shit you deal with before the real rewards, don’t you think?” Actually life is incredible, especially with Jesus and in relationship with God, being forgiven of my sins. And it gets better even after I die. Don’t count me in with the terminology you used.
“What if the truth makes you happy? What if your truth is not my truth?” You believe God exists, so do I. So we agree, it’s the same truth; furthermore, TRUTH is not relative to you and I, either we know the truth (though I think we don’t have the capacity to know the entire truth yet) or we are in a lie. I believe Jesus is the Truth just like he claimed to be, and that makes me happy. What I originally said is that people want what makes them happy as a means to say what is true or not, instead of doing vice versa: TRUTH whatever the cost, which is what Jesus was all about I believe (at least in the book of Matthew as I read it).
To the response on my comment on the lostness of people: "I don’t have much faith in people, but I do have faith in God, and in God, people can do ANYTHING. If I happen to have faith in a person, it is because I have faith in God, it’s hard to explain. The human race needs to know its loving God. God did not create a “fucked” up race of people like you tried make me look to have written. God created man in his own image, but man decided to sin because he was given free will. Our DNA is in the likeness of God, and functions in the universe that he also created. Jesus allowed us to reestablish our covenant relationship with God and be forgiven of our sins, that’s the cross.
“I don’t see many members of the clergy at MENSA meetings”. The belief I’m talking about has nothing to do with “RELIGION” nor the “clergy” as you state. My belief is my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I never suggested a majority, I suggested there were believers among the physics professors.
You said:
“Some would say that God is a creation of man”.
Then you said later:
“I do believe in God”.
You defend the belief in no God, and yet believe in a God. That’s dishonest, or at least misleading.
The anger I referred to has to do with “cuss” words you used. If you’re not angry, please don’t use cuss words. If I misinterpreted those emotions, apologies.
About secular humanism: I believe secular humanism is empty. I lived in France for many years, a very atheist country, yet very humanist. I think secular humanism is based on “good works”; which is not what I believe the Bible teaches, so it’s not comparable to doing things as an outgrowth of the impact of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in a person’s life.
You also said something that reminded me again of Nietszche: “All this proves is that you personally needed to believe in Jesus in order to do something that many others manage to do just because they feel it is the right thing to do. Doesn’t say much about you as a person.” Those are the exact words of a former roommate of mine in college. He also went on to say his higher IQ made him superior to me: 165 IQ. This happened when I became a Christian. 2 years later, his confidence in himself and doing things his “own” way led him to a dark alley, where a gun was put to his head. Luckily, I was told by his parents he cried out to God, and the robber spared him. He’s now alive and well; and, I’m not sure how he’s doing with God right now. Why do I say this to you? Just to warn you, to watch out for what you say. You use the words: to “manage to do the same” without God. My little experience tells me all that the word “manage” means is sweep the dust and our sins under the bed so that nobody sees them, to appear like were fine on the outside. God wants to clean up the inside, so that the outside would be a reflection of HIS work on the inside.
“If you do not know about their religions.” I didn’t say I did not know, I said I’m not an expert.
Mormons do not believe in Jesus as the only way to the Father, rather that is should be through the recognition of Joseph Smith as prophet and the Mormon one true church.
The book of Mormons contradicts the Bible on multiple accounts:
Alma 46:15 ‘believers were called Christians in 73 BC’
Acts 11:26 ‘believers were called Christians at Antioch, after the and resurrection of Christ’
The Bible says that many that call themselves Christian on that day will see Jesus and he will say: “get away from me, I never knew you.” My hope is in him, that I am saved by faith in him.
You seemed to want a quote from the Koran?
Sura 4:31 “Men have the authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. So good women are obedient, guarding the unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and banish them to beds apart and beat them; then if they obey you, seek not occasion against them.” This is not a belief that I have about the God I serve.
“sparky” hmmm…
Anyway, all this just to say, “why say no to God?”
To do things are own way
To glorify or idolize “humanity”. Humanity is God.
There is no God.
Because is the one I serve
Haven’t thought much about it
It just doesn’t make complete sense to me yet.
Haven’t found him.
If he’s there, let him show himself (remember the criminals at the side of Jesus on the cross? If you are the Messiah, save yourself. But the other trusted, and was accepted by God).
As I said, many people feel that God never existed. Something that was never alive cannot be dead by definition.
Using The Bible to make a point about the Bible is called circular reasoning.
**
This does not answer my question. I asked if logically, one would treat life with a little more urgency and as something precious if they knew that was all there was for them, just as certainly as you know there’s something beyond this. Please answer the question.
**
I believe in God. I never said He was anything like the one you place your faith in.
Why must there only be one Truth? Some people prefer vanilla over chocolate. Does one posess “TRUTH” and the other a lie?
**
I have seen non-believers do great things. I would say that Gandhi did many great things - He did not worship Christ. Do tell me, what of him? What of others?
**
Man “decided” to sin? Actually, according to your mythos, we are punished forever due to the sin of two people. Doesn’t seem fair to me.
**
There is nothing dishonest here. I said that “some would say” something. I did not say that I would say it, did I?
Ever heard of devil’s advocate? Did you catch my user name? I ain’t named Satan because I’m gonna swallow your soul, Sparky…
And that does not answer my question. If you wish it to be from an actual non-believer, I’m sure a real-life authentic atheist can help you out here. Any volunteers?
**
The words I use are my own. I speak like this. I will try not to speak like this if it offends you (though I am not one to be offended with mere words myself), but just to make a last point, sometimes I am fucking happy.
**
I don’t care what Secular Humanism means to you. Non-Christians won’t care much about what Christ means to you because they do not practice Christianity. What i asked is why isn’t it possible for Secular Humanists to be just as good as you claim to be with Christ on your side, as you implied?
The Bible also teaches that “by their works, I will know them,” which tells me that works do count for something, and that it ain’t you to judge them.
**
Bully for your roomate. This all means nothing, and i stand by what I said - People who do not belive manage to act exactly in a manner that you claim was not possible for you without Christ. I maintain that this is a character flaw of yours, not your roomate’s and not those who manage to do so.
You then slam Mormons when all I did was maintain that they were Christians. I never said they were “right,” just that they - just as Protestants, Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses - are Christians as well as you are. Or do you disagree?
**
(Joshua 10:40) So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
This is not something I want the God I serve to do.
Yer pal,
Satan
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Are you kidding? I just got one name for you: FriendofGod. I’ll spell you when your head is flattened enough I guess, but for right now, you are handling the brick wall just fine.
(A disclaimer for the rest of the posters here: we know each other IRL)
Please stop. Whatever the validity of your points, the tone is off-putting. I know you, and even I think the tone is attacking.
Despite his handle, Sat. has replied with intelligence, and you have called him names.
This reminds me of a concept I got from John Wimber - Did you really expect non-Christians to act like Christians? And if you don’t, then don’t get mad at them when they don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m guessing that you’ve met people who have “needed” a push, but I seriously doubt that this is the place.
Please, please read my post again about bullies. And read 1 Cor. 2:14.
Dave,
If your opinion is shared by the rest of the group, I will stop posting. But I think it’s getting good, great and intelligent questions are being raised. Why don’t you try to answer Sat. questions?
I’m not sure what “tone” your are referring to, I’ve been honest in my emails, even with my character faults which I know I have, I’m pretty weak I know, but someone once told me that: “a saint is someone that keeps getting thrown on the ground and stomped on, but he keeps getting back up”, so I’m trying to participate. We’ve been having a discussion; can less intelligent people also participate? I don’t recall having called Sat. any names(?). The one rule is: to not be a “jerk”, that is the “straight dope” agreement. I don’t think I’ve been a jerk, but if I’m wrong, I’ll take the penalty and leave. Thanks for calling me though on this Dave.
Ptahlis,
I’ve played soccer all my life, I’m used to getting hit in the head, but thanks for the support (even if you meant it against me).
Sat.,
I think that’s cool you quit smokng. I don’t think I “slammed” Mormons. I do believe Mormonism is not equal to Christianity, in the sense that I described that we believe in different things (and I know they call themselves Christians). I also believe there are Protestants and Catholics that are not Christians (it’s a personal matter of the heart and faith in Jesus Christ). I define “Christian” as a personal relationship with God through Christ; whomever says Jesus Christ is Lord and believes it is a “Christian” according to what I believe the word means. I also love the God of the Old Testament and how he was incredible in battle, but the God of the Old Testament has changed, when he sent Jesus to die for our sins. I find that an incredible 'ry, God has a personality, a character, emotions, WOW!!Jesus, was the atoning sacrifice for our sins, so God deals with people differently ever since, that’s what I think.
“which tells me that works do count for something, and that it ain’t you to judge them” – you’re right, point well taken
“Doesn’t seem fair to me.” – I know! Why does their sin have to affect me? It no longer has to affect us, because of what Jesus did on the cross.
“I would say that Gandhi did many great things - He did not worship Christ. Do tell me, what of him? What of others?” I don’t know what of them. God makes that decision.
“I asked if logically, one would treat life with a little more urgency and as something precious if they knew that was all there was for them, just as certainly as you know there’s something beyond this. Please answer the question.”
Yes, I think they would.
Unless someone requests that I stay in, I will no longer post. By this I will know what this group desires.
I was being glib and trying not to write a novel by saying “slammed.” You merely said they were “wrong.”
The point I was trying to make is that they are Christians, period.
**
Maybe you should allow people to label themselves as they wish? If someone says they are a Christian, why do they have to pass the NAVOC test? After all, it is between God and them, I think, as only He will know what is in their hearts, right?
Personally, I dislike labels which would make someone try and put me into a box. However, it seems that you are putting people in a box by thinking they should conform to what YOU say makes a Christian, IMHO.
**
By that definition, I believe that Satan (the real dude, not me) is a Christian.
**
I am going to ask you a slew of questionsd that this brings up to me. Feel free to only take on what seems most imnportant to you or just any general comments you might have. Otherwise, this would be more like an interview than an exchange and that’s not what either of us want and that also seems to dissuade folks from joining in.
So God changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament? Well, if He could change then, why couldn’t he change now? How do you know there isn’t a prophet right now who is seeing and directly witnessing God changing right now? What prevents you from hearing this person and reading the Really, Really New Testament and saying what you just said about God of the OT - that he’s different now? Why would a perfect God suddenly change so much - I mean, He was perfect, right?
**
We’re not in Eden anymore…
[quote] I don’t know what of them. God makes that decision.[./quote]
Ah, humility and admitting you don’t know something! There’s hope here…
I’m gonna give a little bit of myself here, since you don’t know exactly what you’re dealing with. Feel free to tear it apart if that is your desire. I don’t anticipate changing or anything, but you put your views out there, so I may as well respond in kind.
For the record, I believe that God speaks to peopple differently, and that just because some people use the name Jesus, and others Yahweh, others say Allah and others say The Invisible Pink Unicorn, they are still dealing with the same person.
I mean, I call a domesticated feline creature who drinks milk a cat, whereas someone who is Spanish will call it a gato. It’s still the same animal, no?
I believe that God does not hold it against you for failing to do things with the right silly ritual that some man made up thousands of years ago to make the religion look appealing to pagans and get them to convert.
I believe that we all have worth, and we all can be good people. Not perfect, but pretty damn good if we set our minds to it.
I have faith in my fellow man. Is my faith tested? All the time. But I still see more good than bad in people, and the thought of a God telling someone who never read a Bible (do you want to know how many people in India and Asia throughout history who died and could never know the deal with JC? Who never had a chance? It’s a staggering number, I’m sure.) that they were wrong and that He would turn His back on them and send them to hell, or telling someone else that they read the wrong Bible the same thing, is repugnant and NOT a forgiving, loving God but a petty tyrant.
Feel free to disagree with me. Lord knows, I get shit from Christians and atheists alike at times. But this works for me on several levels.
For one thing, logically, I don’t know why God would send my Jewish grandmother to hell for talking to Him and cutting out the middle man, but my fundamentalist Protestant brother-in-law can say with authority that he “questions” my other grandmother’s soul before her dead body is even cold in front of us, when that grandmother prayed to Jesus every day of her life and thanked Him for every day of her life until she died. She just had the audacity to do this in a Catholic church. Meanwhile, my Protestant brother-in-law is heaven-bound, even though he is an asshole who would say to grieving family members that my grandmother’s salvation was “questionable.”
I know that the common thing to ask is “If Hitler repented, he would go to heaven but Gandhi would go to hell,” but I see it a little more personally. Because if my grandmothers are in hell and my brother-in-law is in heaven, I have no desire to go to heaven whatsoever.
And that, ultimately, is what a majority of Christians say is what Christianity says. Not all - there are some folks here who feel similar to myself but who call themselves Christians - but certainly a majority.
Personally, I blame Paul…
**
Excellent. I agree totally. Of course, the parameters of your faith says that isn’t enough for God, and that’s fine for you to say and believe, even if I don’t concur. Just please don’t say that atheists cannot be moral like some other people of faith have intoned. Why, even a Vice Presidential candidate has said as much recently… :rolleyes:
I am not the police here. I appreciate honest debate. Yes, I can be a bit of an asshole sometimes. But I generally post in dirent parallell to what I am responding to and my frustration level. Please, don’t take it personally.
Yer pal,
Satan
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[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!*[/sub]
Here’s the deal NAWOC: We have been subjected to drive-by-witnessing and convert-the-unsaved threads on this board before. Others have been here much longer than I, but even I can describe the typical Witnessing Poster.
WP#1: The Drive-ByWrite an initial post describing all the ways Jesus is going to save us. Option packages include: professing how sad you are for those that will not see the light, saying a few things about how Satan (the older one, not the poster) has led nonbelievers astray, questioning the possibility of a moral atheist, threatening with hellfire possibly, tossing in a version of Pascal’s Wager, decrying the ills of society and how it is all because of religious decline. Posts may also be spruced up with arguments lifted directly from Jack Chick if desired. Then, the originator of the OP disappears forever after maybe a follow up or two. (Big example here is im_a_squirrel, the originator of this thread.) In these threads, people meticulously pick apart the flaws in the post. Occasionally someone with a similar outlook to the OP posts a few short reiterations of same. Sometimes more thoughtful theists will come and post their interpretations of the arguments. Sometimes nonbelievers may be offended, and sometimes Christians will be embarassed. Eventually, if enough time goes by without further pulpit pounding, the thread either moves into other debates or just dies.
WP#2: The Missionary Write the same sort of OP, or post within an existing thread, as the above, customized to taste. Except this time the poster is tenacious. People will again pick apart the flaws in the arguments. Said poster will rebut, usually with Bible verse. Other interpretations of the verse will be offered by more liberal, less literal Christians. The writer of the OP will usually ignore any questions too tough, or promise to get back to it and then hope the matter drops. Stubbornly, Missionary Posters will try and use the Bible to prove the Bible even after being shown that it is not a valid argument. They will provide nothing but opinion and anecdotal evidence to back their assertions when posters more able than I provide link after link that shows an assertion to be untrue. In short, they are on a mission of propaganda and proselytizing, and refuse to engage in an honest debate. They question nothing of their own beliefs, and are truly unwilling or unable to accept any evidence or arguments that fail to support their preconceptions, and aren’t really interested in learning the other side’s point of view.
WP#3: The Surprise Witness Occasionally, someone starts out as either of the above, or at least has the appearance of the Drive-By or the Missionary at first glance. What is different about these folks is that they stay around, listen, and engage in a real exchange of ideas. They don’t dodge issues, they don’t spout dogma as an argument. They examine their own beliefs, and they consider others’ beliefs honestly. They actually do learn about why atheists don’t believe, and why other theists believe differently. They find the flaws in people’s arguments, including their own. In short, they learn to discuss and debatewith the people on the board, rather than preach at the people here. I call this category the Surprise Witness because quite frankly, it is a rare thing to find someone of a fundamentalist bent who comes to “witness to the heathens” that will actually try and engage in debate honestly.
All in all, the above is just my opinion of course, and they are sweeping generalizations, not exhaustive categorizations. There are other types here, like Polycarp, Libertarian, Triskademus, cm_keller, etc., that post about their beliefs, debate honestly, and are all-around good guys. Some of them may or may not think of what they do as witnessing (well, cmk is Jewish, so he probably doesn’t :D), but my list refers to the Fundamentalist brand of witnessing in particular, not these guys or those like them. For them I would have to have a category of “Gentleman Witness.” I should hope, as would most anyone else here I think, that you end up being WP#3. If you are, please do continue to post. If you merely see this board as ripe conversion fodder, then I’m afraid you’ve made a mistake, and should probably seek stray sheep in some other pasture. We’ve been up and down and all around this meadow before.
