Why say no to God?

Great Debates
121

Rules for the Type #4 witness post:

1. Be honest. You may think it’s cute to hide your interest in making converts behind discussion of some related issue. But God can see through it, and He doesn’t. And the same is true for most of your readers. There is not a regular poster here who does not understand that I think something terrific happened when God came into my life, and that I want to share that experiencce with as many people as possible. Why do I not get flamed? See below.

2. Be sincere. Tell the truth as you know it. Don’t bring in somebody else’s argument. Make the points you feel proper to make in your posts and respond to people’s objections. God is not going to lose points because you don’t know the answer. He will, on the other hand, if his witness engages in BS. And the fact that you have questions about what He has in mind on some given topic is not going to turn people off to Him, but on the contrary make them feel closer to you – you’re not the Expert Christian With All The Answers; you’re one of us poor blokes with some answers and some questions, on the same playing field.

3. Respect others. God did not send you here on a Mission to Spread the Light – there are as many people here who have spent at least as much time thinking about these ultimate issues and seeking for answers as in your home church, and probably more. And every single one of them has a moral code by which he lives, and a set of “beliefs” regarding the metaphysics of the world we live in that he holds as sincerely as you do. The belief sets happen to differ far more widely than you’re probably used to. But you’ll get used to that. On the other hand, the moral codes are pretty close to identical, differing in a few details here and there. They may not be the one you are familiar with. But that’s unfortunate; they’re founded on a formula you may be familiar with: “love your neighbor as yourself.” The theists add the first half to that; the others do not. (And note that some of the theists are animists, for whom loving God equals love of the cosmos and all its details, including butterflies and trees.)

4. Engage in honest debate. This has pretty well been covered above, but it needs stressing. Ask questions, and give answers to questions you’re asked. Post as you would be posted to.

5. Play by the house rules. There is a common consensus here that the universe and the laws that appear to govern it are legitimate bases for debate. Anything else you care to bring into play is subject to discussion regarding whether it is useful evidence. Not everybody “believes in” the Bible, and among those who do there is a wide range of values to be placed on how much of it is to be taken as literal and how much is poetic language of one form or another. A Bible verse proves nothing except how well you’ve memorized it. It may be pertinent as evidence in an argument, to stress a point you’ve arrived at from another angle. It is never appropriate here as a “given” from which a point may be proved (unless the question at hand is as arcane as “is there anything in the Bible about Lesbians?”).

And, you know something? Those aren’t bad rules for Christian witness in real life either. :wink:

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Gee Trisk, thanks! :smiley: Even if you wouldn’t put me in the category, I think that’s new sig line material!

123

Polycarp, almost thou persuadest me. (Festus to Paul in Acts for everybody else) I knew there was a reason I like you so much.

I’m an ex-Christian, now an atheist, and a good reason for that would be folks like NAWOC. You are speaking from a position of superiority and arrogance when you should be reflecting humility as a sinner who’s been redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ and brought to new life in the Holy Spirit through your belief in the Resurrection.

Folks like Polycarp and Tris speak with faith, but in a humble and compassionate way. They listen to other posters and treat them like people, not targets of conversion.

Your worst fault, NAWOC, is that you treat people like objects, and that is a grievous sin against God. You’re also helping the Devil spread unbelief by being so obnoxious that folks who might otherwise have been receptive to the message of salvation have had their hearts hardened, and when you are called to judgement, you will have to answer for it unless you repent of your sin.

Remember what Paul wrote in his First Letter to the Corinthians, “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I have not charity, it profits me nothing.”

Satan, it’s not a slam to say Mormons aren’t Christians.
Technically, their beliefs differ so much from orthodox Christian doctrine(they deny the Trinity, the believe in a multiplicity of separate gods, they deny the Atonement and the Resurrection) that they really do form a separate religion. For their part, the LDS believe that the rest of Christendom are false churches that teach error, and that the LDS church is the only true Christian religion. I’ve known lots of LDS folk, and they’re all great people, and one of my housemates is a Mormon. If we judge folks by conduct and acting as Christians are supposed to, the Mormons would win, handsdown.

124

…then suddenly, Ptahlis sees to his shame that he has misspelled Trisk’s handle in the sig line. Morosely, Ptahlis picks up his tray to go sit at the “stupid heathens’” table. :frowning:

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Wow! A me quote in a sig line! I am honored!

Can I sit wit you guys?

Tris

126

…and yet, what’s this? The corrected spelling now appears on the sig line of the previous post, leaving all to wonder what the hell Ptahlis is talking about. Ptahlis meanwhile reflects that the SDMB indeed works in mysterious ways…

127

Ptahlis,
“They examine their own beliefs, and they consider others’ beliefs honestly. They actually do learn about why atheists don’t believe, and why other theists believe differently.” I think this will help me research my own beliefs, and I’ve already found there are certain thoughts I definitely need to polish. I thought those were 3 thoughtful analogies of yours.
“If you merely see this board as ripe conversion fodder…” I do think everybody benefits from serving Jesus, but I am learning already some of what makes you all tick. Thanks…

Triskadecamus,
“There are a lot of really smart heathens here”. God made some people very smart for a reason I think; hopefully, I’ll be smart as well.

Sat’n,
Nothing personal, I’d like to attempt to answer a couple of your questions:
Ah, the “NAWOC test”! Interesting… I think we all have certain biases, so it’s hard to be completely objective; however, hopefully, the nawoc test is “scriptural” (which means to me ‘authoritative’). If it is not, on the basis of scripture, then it definitely needs to be revised.
About the freedom to label yourself: sure… We can say anything we want about ourselves. I may say I’m a millionaire, but on what basis? Maybe I have a million in my personal retirement fund, or own a million dollar business (two different things). We have to agree on terms first, then use the right labels. It’s on the definition of the terms that I disagree. I ran into this problem as an undergrad in my other major: Anthropology, as related to concepts of ‘love’ and ‘worship’ and other stuff in different ures, this was the concept I defended though my professors were I felt MUCH MORE relativistic.
About God changing from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Yes, I believe God is perfect! I think God was planning the transition all along, but this is something I will continue to look into. I found a url for this:
http://www.bible.org/docs/q&a/q&a-281.htm#TopOfPageIs the God of the OT the same as the God of the NT?

About God with different names, I think that makes sense:
Paul stood before Greeks and told them the “unknown God” that they serve (the name printed on a statue) is the same God as the Christian God (but I don’t think he’s an invisible pink unicorn.)

“I still see more good than bad in people”. I think that points to God, and reveals we have some of God in us (which goes back to the fact that he put us together in our mother’s wombs and knows us perfectly). After all, if the God fo the Bible is all good which he states he is (100% love), and we are partially good, and “good” is something we want for ourselves as humans then: God seems like a worthy cause to research and follow.

Leads me to the point: what about those s in the OT.
http://www.bible.org/docs/q&a/q&a-286.htm#TopOfPageA Moral Problem-The slaughter of the Canaanites (Josh 6, 8, 10). (Bottom of the page)
I suppose, just like pruning sometimes helps a tree grow bigger/healthier. God did the same sort of thing in history with people, especially in regards to HIS people, the Israelites. Now, God has stretched his blessing to all people, even gentiles (which would be us). I don’t think there is ANY room to criticize Jews.

“silly ritual”. I don’t think chosing to follow a leader is a ritual. I was once interrogated by a group saying that I wasn’t a Christian; because, I didn’t accept the Lord in a specific way: heard the gospel, understood it, repented, confessed it, and got baptized. I think right now that being a Christian is a matter of acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior, and chosing to follow him: it involves repentence, baptism, and good works in the process of following him.

http://www.bible.org/docs/q&a/q&a-267.htm#TopOfPageHow does the gift of prophecy fit with Hebrews 1:1 as it seems the role of prophets ended with the coming of Christ?
Some fundamentalists think there is no “prophecy” today. But I think otherwise, God is God, he can give the gift of prophesy to a man today no problem, just like any other gifts (healing, tongues, etc…). Prophecy usually will be accepted by the rest of the body of Christ as being true (that would be the test of validation). After all:
Romans 12:6 says: “And we have different gifts,8 according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith.”

Romans 10:12 says: “For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” If a muslim acknowledges Jesus as Lord, he’s saved!

As far as the Jew that does not go through Jesus: Romans also says that the Jews are under a covenant relationship with God: “11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake (talking about Israel to the gentiles), but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may1 receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience so that he may show mercy to all.” Because of this, I respect and love Jews immensely; after all, they ARE in my opinion still God’s people in the covenant. Yet, as Christians, it’s almost like we are grafted into the Jewish faith, only with a Messiah that has already come.

I know a lot of great believing Catholics, and I’m more on the Protestant side of the equation in regards to formalities. There are wonderful Catholic believing people in my opinion, I know many personally. It’s definitely more about “content” then “form” I think.
Promised, I’ll try not to post this long in the future!

128

Ptahlis

I want to believe that your sig line changed, but I have never had a sig line change before. [… sigh …] I’ll just take you at your word and believe that you believe your sig line changed. :wink:

[Note: Wherever Tris sits, I would like to sit at his feet and eat the scraps that fall from his plate.]

129

goboy,

I definitely see your point, and I think I have A LOT of growing up to do. I hope one day you’ll forgive guys like me. Some of us are trying, we’re just slow. Also, you have to remember, I grew up for the most part in another country: France, and for some reason, Americans think French are arrogant (maybe they are!). I’m 25, and I’ve moved over 19 times growing up, across Oceans and speaking several languages. I don’t know how to relate with people very well. Please have a little mercy. 5 years ago, I was a wreck, the biggest punk out there, I didn’t care about anyone, probably why I drank a lot and did .

Comments like yours definitely help me out, thank you for your honesty.

I want to go slam myself into a wall. I used to really dislike myself, so I think there is still a battle within me going on! If I’m arrogant, it’s because I wish I were better and I know that’s a sin. I have so many sins! How does a non-christian work out “sin” issues? Do you do it only with “will” power?

polycarp,
You’re a voice of wisdom and reason, pray for me.

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NAWOC

Love.

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Libertarian, awesome,

But’s that’s why I said “yes” to God, because the Bible said “God is love”, and I knew that’s what I needed. Because I didn’t know how to love, and the very first time I recognized love was 4 years ago.

Where and how do you learn to ‘love’? What is love for you?

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Well then welcome aboard NAWOC.

Just for clarity’s sake, do you ascribe to Biblical literacy? Do you believe that nothing is a parable unless expressly labeled as such or are you of the opinion that some things within are myths whose essence is true even if the particulars are exaggerated? How about inerrancy? Are there possible translation and selection errors within or is it the absolutely perfect word of God?

**

Well NAWOC, this puzzles me a little. The usual definition of perfect implies unchanging and complete. Perfect is an absolute term. What kind of “perfect” would you ascribe to God? Is he temporally perfect, in other words, a perfect fit for each moment as it comes, but ultimately changable in response to our needs?

**

But of course you know that baptism is a ritual, right? If baptism is a required, rather than a preferred, step in receiving salvation, then it is hardly unfair to say that God judges people not only by what is in their hearts, but in the form their worship takes. I am confused as to whether you consider that particular ritual to be required or whether it is unnecessary.

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That’s okay Lib. We can agree to disagree… Heretic! :wink:

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Well, leaving aside the non-Christian theists out there, I can say that much of what you might call sin is to me a character flaw. Pride, envy, sloth, gluttony, etc… are all things that we have to work on when we catch them in ourselves. We just try to do better. I find myself wondering what it is that you think would be different for you just because you are a Christian. Don’t you see your flaws and work to improve them? I realize that you probably pray for guidance and strength, but it’s still you that must control your own behavior is it not?

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NAWOC -

One of my all time heros is George Wallace, the Alabama governor. Why, all you people cry, who are familiar with his stance on integration?

Because he had the guts to publicly make an about-face. It’s one of the things I try to do when needed, but the people who really do it in a convincing manner are truly among my heros.

And now that includes you.

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I don’t want to muddle the issue any further, but NAWOC talked about Yahwah (OT christian god). I think the most interesting thing about Yahwah is that he assumes other gods exist. “Thou shalt not take any other gods before me” implies the existance of other gods. This is in sharp contrast to the similar Muslim statement, “There is only one god Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.” The OT commandment implies other gods exist, but Yahwah is the god of the Isrealites. This is consitant with the language elsewhere in the OT. The pillar of Islam I quoted says that while people may be able to think of other gods and worship them, they are not real and there is only one God with a capital G named Allah. And Allah is everybodies God, not just one group’s god.

As for Satan’s point about the changing God and how do we know he’s not different today, Muslims make the same point. They recognize earlier revalations as genuine but incomplete. Abraham, Moses, and Jesus heard the word of God, but didn’t get the whole message, but they each got a more complete revalation than the previous one. Muhammad had the latest and the greatest revalation, and it was complete enough to be the last one for humanity. We got the message and judgement day was coming soon.

From today’s perspective, however, even Muhammad’s revalation is getting moldy. It’s been 1400 years and no last judgement, maybe he heard God wrong too.

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Biblical literacy? Yes, to a certain extent. I’m studying a little about Biblical Archaelogy and Eponyms (it seems that most dates are right on in the Bible). There is an apparent contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2, which I haven’t yet really solved, and the story of the creation I have “faith” that somehow will make sense scientifically (it may have to do with the time back then being slower, or a different concept of days, but I’m not sure on that…). I don’t believe there are myths in the Bible nor exagerations necessarily. I believe that for most of what I’ve read soo far, maybe about 2/3 of the Bible, it’s definitely not to be taken as such. I also see Revelations as an “imagery” of what is to come, given as revelation from the Holy Spirit.

“Is God temporally perfect, in other words, a perfect fit for each moment as it comes, but ultimately changable in response to our needs?” If we were not able to petition to the Lord in prayer, what would be the purpose of prayer? I think prayer can be worshipful, but I think we are also to go to his throne and ask! The Christian God definitely wants us to ask and interact with him. If we don’t, how will we receive? I think God is perfect in as much as we can understand: in justice, in righteousness, in mercy, in grace. Being perfectly just also means rules can change, and so God would be able to change the rules if he wished. God being God, he also knows the future, and what will come of things, when and how we will or could or would do certain things, and etc… That’s a hard concept to follow.

Actually, as I’ve experienced baptism, when I became a Christian, alone in my room with no witnesses I was saved (I believe). When at church they asked if people wanted to get baptized, I remember getting all excited and thinking “I DO, I DO, I DO”. There is a belief called “baptismal regeneration” that makes baptism essential for salvation, but most pastors and preachers I’ve talked to don’t believe this is scriptural. So baptism is really something you do to mark your new creation in Christ: it’s like a form of reward, for me it was an unforgettable feeling of being brand new.

Dr. Lao,
Could it be that the statement you bring up about the God of the OT is suggesting that God is saying: “I have no competition, don’t go and make (thus invent) Gods for yourself, it wouldn’t be right, they would all be fake?”, but maybe that’s reading into it… Because I’m thinking about the scripture that says he is the “alpha and the omega” (which entails “everything” put together, the beginning and the end, which basically implies there is nothing comparable to him: especially of godly form)!
I do agree with you that prophets and leaders of the OT were only given messages partially (not the whole thing). I do believe that Jesus knew the end however, because after all, we as Christians are waiting for his return, which is what he announced.
About the final judgment, I don’t believe it has come time yet. I still think God would like everyone on earth to hear his message first, to know about Christ. But he could chose to come anytime. There are still many people groups (almost 1000 or more I believe) that haven’t heard the gospel, and as many as 2000 or 3000 languages that don’t have the Bible nor a dictionary). I can check on those statistics if someone wants me to.

I did have a conversation with some Muslims once about what you talked about Dr. Lao, and they certainly did let me know that according to their faith, I don’t stand a chance as a Christian.

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Nawoc:

Hmm. Interesting. Do you believe that there was a global flood circa 2500 B.C.E.? If so, then how did the Egyptians and Chinese fail to notice their own annihilation?

Do you consider all of the Biblical miracles literally accurate? Talking donkeys, women turning into salt, witches bringing men back from the dead, angels copulating with humans, people building a giant tower into the sky, causing God to scatter their languages? Those aren’t myths?

No exaggerations? Do you think that 2.5 million Israelites were in captivity in Egypt, and then roamed through the desert for 40 years? I have some articles showing the logistical difficulties involved in such a trek. I’d be happy to post/e-mail them. How about the giant casualty numbers in the battles, where hundred of thousands died? There is no possible way that any nation could have had enough supply lines to support that many soldiers in those days. Those aren’t exaggerations?

Read your Bible a bit more carefully. Jesus did not know the end. He specifically says that only the father knows when the end will come, not even him. He did predict that it would come in the lifetime of his followers however.

P.S. The line about God being the alpha and the omega in Revelations is thought by most scholars to be a late interpolation. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

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…for some reason, my posting to this thread got lost.

Oh, well! PolyCarp you’re Da Man!! That was a great post! Certainly the spirit of Forseit speaks thru you!

FYI, Forseti is a little known Norse god. It was said that when Odin was out traveling in the 9 worlds, Forseti would sit in his place and dispense judgements to those who came before him, and all who did so went away pleased. You’ve certainly have my vote!

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I was wondering who that one-eyed guy was that asked to use my login. Kinda creepy with those ravens on his shoulders! :wink: