Hmm. Let me see if I can be a little more specific with regards to the question of perfection and change. Your previous post intimated to me that you believed God had changed his basic nature from the Old Testament to the New. Your most recent explanation sounds more like you are saying that God himself did not change, merely his behavior. In other words, he can change his mind in response to our prayers, but he himself is unchanged.
"Well, let’s hear it for old Odin
Those ravens were forbodin’
Until the giants rode in
He was good enough for me
Gimme that old-time religion . . ."
Opus1,
I went to Borders Bookstore, to answer your flood question, 'cause I didn’t know. I’m still not 100%, but here’s what I found (Oxford Press, and another book: “Evidence that demands a verdict” by Josh McDowell). Apparently there are flood accounts found all over the world for that time period (2500 BC to 2400 BC): Greeks, Hindus, Chinese, Mexicans, Algonquins, Hawaiians. One list of Sumerian kings treats the flood as a historical reference point, names 8 kings and then interrupts the kingly order to say “Then the Flood swept over the earth and when kingship was lowered again from heaven, kingship was first in Kish.” Also, a similar story is given of a man called Ziusudra by the Sumerians, and Utnapishtim by the Babylonians. The basic story is the same; although, the Biblical story of Noah would suggest it’s not mythology. How does it “really” fit into time and what history books say: right now, I’m not sure, I can live with that, we’ll find out in time I think.
The Tower of Babel:
Found an Archaeological account that Ur-Nammu, king of Ur from about 2044 to 2007 BC supposedly received orders to build “a great ziggurat (temple tower) as an act of worship to the moon god Nannat.” A ‘stele’ monument about five feet across and ten feet high reveals Ur-Nammu’s activities. One panel or clay tablet shows the erection of the tower offending the gods, so the gods threw down what the men had built, scattered them abroad, and made their speech strange. This sounds like the Tower of Babel to me, except that what the tablets or the people of the days depicted as gods, was what the Bible and the believers of the time knew was the God of the Hebrews. Some people to check out as references are: Free Joseph P. “Archaeology and Bible History”, Max Mueller, Otto Jespersen, Alfredo Trombetti especially in regards to the origin of languages being rooted in a single language.
Other miracles, like a woman turned into a pillar of salt, and the 600,000 I believe Hebrews in the desert? Yes, I don’t have a problem believing that. We’ve seen some blind eyes see, limbs grow out, and people freed from cancer, even this year. I don’t think that’s a problem for God.
Ptahlis
I think I know where you’re headed with your question. I’ll answer you this way, since this is what I mean:
–> 1) You give someone a present, and they turn around and you and want to kill you. How do you relate to that person?
–> 2) Now, they ask for forgiveness, and you forgive that person. You now are reconciled. How do you relate to that person?
–> If your answer is ‘differently’, then I would agree, but you are still the same person, yet your interaction is different. That’s what I mean with God: the same God, but interacting differently with man, so to us, he has changed, because we now have access to his throne, and to a direct relationship with him.
What a thread, I’m learning a lot!
NAWOC, alias “sparky”, wrote:
Oh no?
Genesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Colossians 3:18 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.”
1 Timothy 2:9 “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;”
1 Timothy 2:11-12 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
1 Peter 3:1 “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;”
And there’s boatloads more o’ these gems at http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women_list.html
NAWOC
Cherish people. Love them like they were your own siblings. You stand with them before God, loved equally but not more.
[Note: some of you might be sick of rehearing what follows, but I offer it for the benefit of NAWOC. I won’t blame you if you skip it.]
Hear my testimony, if you will. I am a deeply committed (though very imperfect) Christian, with a background that runs the gamut, from Buddhism to Myownism to Satanism to Christ. Here, I have learned more about our wonderful Savior from the Atheists than I had in years from the Bible Thumpers. One thing I learned here is that those Thumpers worship a book. The Bible is not the word of God. Jesus is the Word of God.
Here, I have been humbled by the Atheists. I was sure they were miserable and deficient, unable to experience God’s love. I thought I was respectful of them, but I was not, because deep inside, I pittied them. My attitude was something like yours, ‘Oh, the poor things. If only they knew’.
But I went into ernest prayer one day, frustrated that Gaudere claimed a joy to herself that I did not believe she deserved. Why? Because she would not say that she believed in God. I cried out in tears, “Lord, how could she possibly be happy? She doesn’t even believe you exist!”
I heard God’s voice in my heart. Instantly, I was convicted and saw all of reality in a whole new way. He said to me, “I am the Love Everlasting. Anything men say about me with their minds is vapor. I cannot be known by the mind, but only by the heart. Stop dividing the world between theists and atheists, and start dividing it rightly as I do. There are those who love and those who don’t. Those who love, they are my disciples.”
Suddenly, my heart changed. I understood. Gaudere is my Sister in Spirit. She loves. If she is an atheist, then so am I! It is a meaningless term metaphysically, because it deals with what the brain apprehends, and not with what the heart comprehends. I know that when Gaudere sees Jesus, she will adore Him because her heart is filled with love and she already adores His Spirit every day, in the way she loves and cares for others.
Remember that His Spirit cannot be constrained by our labels and our dark, foggy understanding. He is eternal. From His perspective, the universe has already died out and all of this is already finished. Those who love are already in the Kingdom of God. As Jesus said, His Kingdom isn’t here, and it isn’t there, it is within you.
If you want to learn how to love people, get to know some of these wonderful brothers and sisters of ours who call themselves Atheists. For all you know, one of them (or all of them) might be our Lord incarnate. (Take care what you do to the least of these…) Hear them out. Be patient. Listen. They will not rob you of your faith because you know the source of their love. But that doesn’t make you any better than them. Remember too that the last shall be first.
Anyway, I hope that helps. God go with you always.
“I am the Love Everlasting. Anything men say about me with their minds is vapor. I cannot be known by the mind, but only by the heart. Stop dividing the world between theists and atheists, and start dividing it rightly as I do. There are those who love and those who don’t. Those who love, they are my disciples.”
Ok, i read the first page of this and then skipped to the last few posts on the third page without any intention of posting, but when i saw this quote i had to say something. So…(whoever wrote this)…you’re saying that GOD said this to you?!! I mean, were you saying that god literally filled your ears with his voice and said this exact quote to you or were you speaking figuratively? If you actually believe that god said this to you then lets take a second to think about what “god” said to you. Is not the brain the organ we use to think? the organ we use to speak, read and regulate everything that goes on in our bodies? how can we ‘know god’ without the brain? how could you read the bible, how could you speak about it, and how could you type that post without it? Now lets think about the heart… when was the last time one of you thought about something using your heart instead of your brain? Here, just take a look at this cecil quote:
“…the most primitive peoples surely noticed that the heart pounded during times of stress, whether from chasing game or pining for a beloved, and they also saw that if you took a spear through it you died. It was only natural to conclude that the heart was the home base of courage, love, the life essence, and other good stuff…”
Of course the brain was found guilty of all of this stuff that was originally thought to be the work of the heart. Think twice next time you feel like repeating those voices in your head.
He’s not referring to the physical heart, Cisco. I think Lib is quite aware that the lump of muscle in his chest has no neurons to think with; and presumably, so is God, bein’ omniscient an’ all. There are other defintions of “heart”; “the emotional nature”, “compassion”, “love”, “courage”, “the essential part of something.” Leaven Lib’s quote with a little understanding of metaphor and see if that helps understanding.
This is a good analogy, although “admonish” means the opposite of what I think you intended 
I don’t see how adopting a religion could possibly FREE you from guilt. I would think having to worry about “sinning” all the time would make one feel extreme guilt for everything that could be perceived as “bad”.
Libertarian
Thank you. That ruled.
(Hey Gaurere, don’t tell him you’re really miserable, okay? ;))
Yer pal,
Satan
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Libertarian,
You go, boy!
Boldly spoken, with great passion. From this is born some understanding of where the Word dwells.
Tris
Tell me Nawoc, do you always use Christian apologetics as geology textbooks? I’m not at all surprised that every culture in the world has a flood myth. I’ve known that for quite some time. Here is a list of scores of them from around the world. The reason that so many places have flood myths is because 1) virtually all civilization arose near either oceans or rivers, places prone to frequent flooding, and 2) all ancient peoples considered the immediate surrounding area to be the entire world, so that a local flood was often considered a global flood by people who didn’t know any better.
The story of Noah is most likely inspired by the massive flooding in the Black Sea that occurred circa 7500 years ago. It was a huge flood, but not a global one. To see the evidence against a global flood, here are two excellent articles which demonstrate why the Biblical account is greatly exaggerated:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/flood.html
If you don’t want to read the entire articles, I’ll provide you with two pieces of evidence right here.
- Overlapping tree ring data goes back 11,000 years, showing no sign of a global flood.
- Ice core samples dating back 160,000 years do not show a global flood either.
So, the existence of a Babylonian myth proves the legitimacy of a Hebrew myth? In case you didn’t know, the predominant theory among Biblical scholars is that the first eleven chapters of Genesis were borrowed from Babylonian mythology: The creation is taken from the Enuma Elish; the Flood from the story of Ut-Napishtim (which you mentioned), etc. So the parallels between the Tower of Babel in the Bible and the story of Ur-Nammu are hardly surprising.
The question is not whether there was ever a giant ziggurat somewhere in the Middle East. The question is whether all languages developed as a result of God scattering people due to the construction of this tower. There are records of different languages existing prior to 2000 B.C.E. Does this interest you? Does it convince you that such a story is a myth invented by a primitive people to explain why their neighbors didn’t speak the same language as they did?
Really? This is most interesting if true. Please show me an instance of somebody regrowing a missing or damaged limb. I would prefer an article from a peer-reviewed journal such as the JAMA or NEJM, but any strong evidence will do. Even a before/after picture of someone with a limb that was previously missing would be convincing, if you could prove that the picture of the person with the limb is the earlier, not later one.
Now, on to Lot’s wife. Why exactly do you believe this story? Even assuming that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, we still have a large numbers of people between the original event and its eventual recording in the Bible. Let’s assume that Lot told Abraham, who told Isaac, who told Jacob, who told Levi, who told Kohath, who told Amram, who told Moses, who wrote it down. This means that the Biblical account is eighth hand, at best! If you were to hear an eighth hand account of a similar event today, would you believe it? Why or why not? If someone were to tell you today that his donkey talked to him, or that a witch brought someone back from the dead, would you believe that? How much more evidence would you require before believing such a tale? Why do you not apply this same standard to the Bible? Do you give the same leniency to other ancient religious texts? Do you think that Krishna had a chariot which could fly, because the Vedas say so? Why or why not?
You don’t seem interested in the number of numerical exaggerations in the Bible, but I’ll post some articles about them anyway. Remember, in many instances, it is the size of the opposing army which is unbelievably high, not the Israelite army, so you can’t claim divine help here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1995/1/1num95.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1995/1/1casu95.html
opus, don’t want to derail you, but I have two minor nitpicks.
Firstly, you said:
I think you would be better served by saying “some Biblical scholars.”
Secondly:
Not a problem if Moses took dictation from his Boss.
I’m sorry, but when I feel like my life is empty, I go find some friends or go out on dates. Also, if I am feeling guilty about something, it goes away after a while. I don’t need to tell my midnight drunken rampants to someone else.
Why say no to God? It’s just as good to ask why say yes.
Can anyone on this MB prove, beyond any doubt, that there is a God? I haven’t met anyone yet who can.
At the same time, is there anyone who can disprove the existence of God? withstanding that it would be difficult to disprove the existence of a “myth” (excuse the use of myth, cannot think of a better term at the moment) I haven’t met anyone yet who can
I feel very happy about my life. I feel that I am living it the best that I can, and that I am doing the right things. If there is a God, I don’t believe I would change the way I live. But why should we do the right thing because God says so, shouldn’t we just do the right thing?
So, until someone can offer some definite proof, I refrain from a decision either way.
from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
Main Entry: ad·mon·ish
Pronunciation: ad-'mä-nish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English admonesten, from Middle French admonester, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin admonestare, alteration of Latin admonEre to warn, from ad- + monEre to warn – more at MIND Date: 14th century
1 a : to indicate duties or obligations to b : to express warning or disapproval to especially in a gentle, earnest, or solicitous manner 2 : to give friendly earnest advice or encouragement to
No, I think 1a or 2 actually was what I was going for. Of course, I was on call at the VA when I wrote that, so who the hell knows?
Carry on.
Dr. J
Sorry I haven’t replied previously, but on three attempts previously my computer has hung, or my connection has died just as I pushed the submit button. Thank you for your initial reply to my post, I dislike sloppy thinking especially when I’m the one doing it.
I’ve just had a look through one of my C.S.Lewis books ( Miracles) and found that it took him several chapters to go from the position of " the universe was created" to “the creator is an intelligent personal being”.
Another query. Does it annoy people here if I quote Lewis at all? I’ve found that he had a great way of expressing complex ideas simply. I’ll just leave this post at this point to see if I can actually submit it.
Yay! my post worked! How about this line of thought? I believe that in addition to the space-time continuum (nature), there exists another realm, the supernatural. If one doesn’t beleive in the idea of the supernatural, one can’t really start on theism, because anything can be explained away as mass hypnotism, or delusion, or something Freudian, if you really want to. My point is that the evidence of our senses is interpreted on the basis of our philosophy, even If we don’t believe in philosophy, and don’t realise we all have one. So unless we examine our axioms and reasoning, we are pretty much stuck in the cage provided by the opinions of those around us, or, even worse, newspapers and T.V. Thus, fanatics of all stripes are born.
This is why I’m grateful to Dr Lao for bringing me up short.
I’ll get feedback on the possibility of the supernatural realm before I continue that line of reasoning.
And Trace, when you look up those verses, I suggest you look at the context. The Pauline epistles also say, husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the church, when He layed down his life for the church. Sorry I can’t give chapter and verse, but its right next to some of the ones you quoted. It also says submit yourselves one to another in the same area somewhere. Quoting out of context is a classic way to get the bible to say whatever you want it to say. I believe its a technique used often by reporters and Creationists to twist around what someone was actually trying to say. I’m not suggesting that you are trying to do that, but it is easy to do.
Lib, cool testimony dude. I’ve never actually heard an audible voice like that, I have however, arrived at the same conclusion by reasoning and studying the bible (no doubt with a little help from the boss). My understanding is that Christs death and resurrection give Him the moral right to decide who He will, or will not, intercede with the Father for. The Bible tells me that His heart is for all to be saved, and many who consider themselves the elect will be in deep ka-ka, when the time comes.
What does annoy me is this idea that Christianity involves somekind of surrender of one’s reason. With that kind of Gospel presented, its no wonder there are so many dedicated atheists around.
What the Jesus followers don’t understand is they can obtain the same feelings of peace and freedom and love or whatever no matter what god they’d worship. I know, I tried it. I worshipped Batman. I prayed to him and everything. It started off as kind of a self-humoring joke, but I gotta tell ya it was kinda nice, after begging Bats to grant my humble plea should he see fit, to think, well, it’s in Batsy’s hands now, so whatever will be, will be. It was a relief to not have to worry about it any more. It really did work, as far as feeling like a stone was lifted. And as it so happens, “Batman” listened to my prayer. But after initial granting, the whole plan didn’t work out, so I just chocked it up to Batsy determining what was best for me. I don’t live this way really, it was kind of a one-time experiment, but quite eye-opening!
I can see where they’re coming from and how they get these feelings. Then they want to share, because it’s like peer pressure, the more people you hang out with that you can get to do what you do, then you won’t feel like you’re doing something silly.
I mean, think of some of the crazy stuff that goes on that doesn’t make sense, but as long as there’s more than one of them doing it, they think it’s okay, or that Jesus approves.
I like worshipping Batman, at least he’d be my god for free.
A girl <---- Batist
Well, all these Batists have freaky evangelistic ideas anyway!! 
Doesn’t bother me. Just do expect to use him as evidence.
If you use the quotes in this way, to clarify, feel free to do so. If fact you can quote anything you like, if the idea is to make a point clearer. Using a citation as evidence requires that more strict standards be used. For example, it doesn’t make much sense to use Bible passages to prove the truth of the Bible. However, you could use other works unrelated to the Bible to show consistencies.
I agree with this completely. Looks like we have another Libertarian, Polycarp, Triskadecamus et al. on our hands here. By which I mean a really smart Christian. You’ll have all us atheists running scared in no time!
BTW, welcome to the SDMB!