Let’s leave aside the first amendment for a moment. It’s clearly a barrier, but I feel like this issue is still worth talking about.
To put it bluntly, as a feminist and civil rights activist I cannot imagine that our society is made better by importing people from countries whose predominate culture considers women second-class citizens. I know I’m not the only one with these feelings - a non-trivial number of otherwise liberal people are islamophobic, and others still simply see legitimate problems in inviting people with quite incompatible values into our society.
So… Why is it a good idea to allow immigration from those countries? Why don’t we do a better job of enforcing or instilling American values with regards to things like the treatment of women?
From a security standpoint, it’s hard to demonize a country that welcomes people of your faith, treats them well and as equals, and let’s them practice as they wish (within broad legal guidelines).
From a humanitarian standpoint, it lets people who oppose the strict fundamentalism a way out, to protect people who share more progressive views.
From a cultural standpoint, our country does better as a blend of cultures, since every culture (save native Americans) is a transplanted culture.
IMO, because most immigrants help and improve American society and the economy, regardless of religion or national origin. According to various opinion polls, American Muslims are more progressive and tolerant than American evangelical Christians, for example, and their incomes are generally pretty solid, in my understanding. I think this is probably true because most people who want to leave their country and come to America feel this way because they have problems with things in their own country, whether it has to do with safety, culture, the economy, religion, or something else. If the arrive and find a welcoming and tolerant culture, a welcoming and tolerant society, and their lives are much improved, then they are likely to welcome in return some of the differences in American culture and society from their original ones.
This might not be true in Europe or other places. But in my understanding we’ve done a much better job of welcoming and assimilating immigrants of all types – and IMO having a welcoming attitude and culture is both necessary for and greatly eases assimilation.
Following your reasoning, why don’t we expel people who are already here, if their values aren’t compatible with yours? Let’s strip all racists, sexists, homophobes, anti-semites, etc. of their citizenship and get them the hell out. And once we set that precedent, who will be next?
Doesn’t it strike you as ironic that you’re more interested in ‘American values’ being reflected in the immigrants you accept, than in the leader you put in the most powerful position in your government?
Besides, which American values are you referring to? The ones Americans espouse? Or the ones they actually practise? The values of the first Americans, (natives)? Or those of the first wave of immigrants to overwhelm the natives? Or is it just, really, YOUR values you’re interested in protecting?
I’d say deporting citizens is a step too far - what other country wants their shit? But surely the racists and sexists here don’t need help?
I moved to Germany and would have voted for Clinton if they hadn’t failed to send me my ballot. Yes, it is tragic that these basic values are not reflected in our elected government.
Well, just for example, the fundamental acceptance that women are not second-class citizens. I’m fairly sure we can all agree that this is a near-universal value in America, right?
You mean like the US? Because if there’s anything the most recent election has shown us, it’s that an awful lot of Americans consider women to be second-class citizens.
But if that argument’s not compelling to you, try this one: women from such societies (and Muslim countries vary quite broadly in their treatment of women – not all of them are Saudi Arabia) are likely better off–and have protection of law–in the US than in their home countries. And contrary to conservative paranoid fantasies; such immigrants do assimilate–we’re not heading toward Sharia law here, for example. Rather, subsequent generations are raised with more typically American values.
Mostly, though, you don’t change minds and attitudes by slamming the door on those you disagree with–another lesson the current administration could learn from.
Instead of rejecting these people — who may have a lot in common with other conservative religious groups’ ‘American Values’ such as the future majority RC Latinos, and the more rigid Mormons, and various Congregationalists — it would be better to engage in dialogue with them. Discuss the various merits of each side’s beliefs: they will listen, and may decide they are mistaken.
However, instead of waiting until they are here, engage them in advance before they come. Send large delegations — 10,000 - 20,000 a country in waves ---- of American feminist missionaries to lecture, defy and show how wrong they are, to Saudi and other Muslim lands; with the rulers, the clerics and ordinary people who hunger to be more like Americans. Give old Hillary something to do in her old age. No-one is better qualified.
They are eager to learn.
[QUOTE=. Well, just for example, the fundamental acceptance that women are not second-class citizens. I’m fairly sure we can all agree that this is a near-universal value in America, right?[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I don’t feel the argument can be made that is a near universal value in America, the latest rhetoric used in this current election proved that. if you allow one minority to be discriminated openly against you open the door for all to be. I was raised and live in a very diverse city, was raised with lots of friends who practice Islam, they are American as any of us and treat their women just the same. If you are a feminist and stand for the rights of one, you must stand for the rights of all. otherwise you don’t stand for equality in my eyes, simply a personal agenda.
If we all aspire to better cultures, what better way than to interact with each other? If you don’t like how women are treated over there, let some of them come over here and see the difference. If the only way they ever see is their own, then change does not happen.
There is a bit of arrogance in the assumption that some of “them” pose a danger to our culture. Our culture was built upon a lot of the “other” people in the world. We have a ways to go ourselves- we’ve seen a sizeable part of the population could not process having a black president. We’ve seen police shoot unarmed minorities and get away with it. We elected a man who boasted of grabbing women by the pussy. So perhaps you’d be better served to get off the high horse.
One of the best ways to do that is to show them a different way. I can’t think of a better way to do that than to allow them to immigrate to the US (or Canada) and see a different way…something they will see first hand every day they are here. If they STILL feel that their way is best, well…they won’t be alone, as we have plenty of home grown people with those sorts of attitudes.
The good thing is that the majority of immigrants to the US, regardless of where they come from, integrate into the melting pot. Often they become more American and bigger patriots than folks who’s families have been here for generations. And they add a lot to our own culture by doing so. It’s a win/win for everyone, IMHO. Of course, I’m biased…my family immigrated here from Mexico when I was a kid and it was the best thing that ever happened to us.
People who are fundamentally opposed to western culture and principals wish to move to the US in significant numbers. Fact: We do not “import” people from other cultures against their will.
Invalid assumption 2:
People who wish to emigrate to the US are not already open and accepting of western culture, social principals and civil rights. Fact: History shows us that immigrants tend to assimilate very well and in a relatively brief amount of time.
To some degree (a very large degree, IMO), I think it’s clear that immigration becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy – if a society and nation is largely suspicious and non-welcoming of immigrants, than immigrants will mostly remain in ethnic enclaves and have more negative feelings about the larger society they’ve joined; if a society and nation is largely welcoming and open to immigrants, than immigrants will mostly assimilate and have positive feelings about the larger society they’ve joined.
Before the OP left the USA, had she/he ever actually met any of the Muslims here? I know quite a few–co-workers (some born in the USA–of several colors), fellow museum-goers (like I saw on yesterday’s day off) & shop owners. Muslim majority countries are not identical–and most people who choose to emigrate are not the most culturally conservative.
To ensure the USA stays strong, we need a healthy system of public education. (Which has assimilated generations of “frightening” immigrants without erasing diversity.) And we need to continue as a secular society which allows free practice of all religions. Or none. Alas, it’s certain so-called “Christians” who threaten us now.
Remind me how fundamentalist Mormon, Hasidic Jewish, Amish communities etc, treat women again. Yet no one is screaming for them to assimilate. Why is that?
Well, he did say near universal and those groups represent a tiny minority of US citizens.
I don’t agree with the OP, but I also don’t agree that we must treat potential immigrants just the way we treat American citizens. For example, we needn’t admit felons, but that doesn’t mean we expel felons who are citizens.
Right on. Look at Muslim-Americans prior to the backlash after 9/11. They tended to assimilate and have positive feelings about the US and their second and third generations even more so. I mean, yeah, they didn’t drink or eat pork, but I didn’t see them thinking poorly of the US (well any more than non-Muslims living here).