Why the Christian God?

Great Debates
41

I do not question the conviction and belief of the fundamentalist Xians who have posted here. But a question must be raised. You can see others of quite different religious beliefs who also claim to be devout and sure that theirs is the right way. We can assume that they are at least as knowledgable about what their religion teaches as you are of your own. We can even assume a personal experience that helped convince them in the Truth of their beliefs (a prayer to Vishnu appears to have been miraculously answered)
Possibilities:

  1. They are lying about their beliefs.
  2. Their religious leaders are keeping secrets hidden from them, so their knowledge is not complete.
  3. Satan has a hold of them and is clouding their perceptions.
  4. They are right.
  5. No religious belief is 100% correct and they have an aspect of god.
  6. There are no gods at all.

We can discount 1. as we’re assuming equal honesty.

You cannot discount 2. without accepting the possibility that this is true for your own religion as well. (barring incontrovertable proof), and this includes notjust leaders, but writings as well.

Evidence would be needed to support 3, and further proof would be necessary to show that Satan does not have a hold of you. (say so is not good enough, I’m already assuming honesty)

Number 4 is tricky. Obviously you don’t agree and we are left with 2 different religions each arguing that they are right. Purely objective evidence must be submitted to show correctness of belief (Quoting the Bible is no support, for why should they believe your religious texts anymore than you believe theirs?)

Number 5 is also tricky. Each person has good reason to believe in teir god…finding evidence to convince otherwise is almost impossible.

So, have I left anything out? And why are you so sure of your beliefs as opposed to others who are equally sure of theirs?

pinqy

42

Quite an interesting thread, this is. I’m not going to attempt to respond to everything since my last post, but I will repond to a few things.

Max said: “Why then was a symbolic blood sacrifice (Jesus) necessary for the redemption of the human race? Could God not have just said, “Okay, you’re all redeemed, let’s go home”?”
Max, I just responded very thoroughly to this very point in the topic “Christianity and Love”. It explains how God literally couldn’t have logically done it any other way.

Dinsdale said: “Does the practicing Catholic believe the virtuous Hindi goes to heaven?” I will only say what I believe … that there is no such thing as a “virtuous” ANYbody! Not a virtuous Christian, virtuous Hindu, etc. See the “Christianity and Love” thread for more on why.

orestes543 said: “I honestly don’t think that anybody has much of a right to say whether their religion is the most logical or not. It’s just not our right to say.”
Food for thought orestes543 - is it not our right to say that certain things are logical in OTHER areas of life? Why should religion be exempt?

Monty said: “B. Faith, by definition, is not rooted in Proof.”
This is to me a fatal flaw in your equation. Faith is not just blindly saying, “I’m going to throw my mind away and ‘just believe’” cuz it feels good and it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling." Faith is saying, “God, you make sense. It makes sense to submit my life to my creator, especially when He’s so good and loving and just. I’ve seen EVIDENCE of your love and goodness in my life, and therefore I will trust you with my life.” That’s faith. It IS solidly based on evidence and yes, even proof.

Yesterday Man said: “You don’t have to spend your life worrying about sinning, going to hell, or earning your way into heaven. You have no spiritual obligations to anyone or anything”.
I’m sure you meant this partly in jest, but I’m still gonna comment :D. The first part of your sentence is true. It’s AFTER your life is over, when you find out that God and hell and heaven ARE in fact real, that being an athiest really starts to bite. As for spiritual obligations – well, you DO have them, you just choose not to act on them. Every person is obligated to serve God.
andros: interesting stuff. Thanks for explaining about the cult. I can see what the person earlier was concerned about, but the person who used it took the “comet” (or in this case “rocket”) to mean something totally different. However I can see that the wording was similar and how it might’ve upset someone.

As to your most interesting quote: “So do you accept the possibility that you are wrong?”
I was wondering when someone would ask me that! :smiley:
Here’s my answer – it’s not about me or you being right or wrong. It’s about one thing: what does the Bible say? If the Bible says something is true, I believe it, pure and simple. I’m not “right” – the BIBLE is right.
Let me put it this way. If ever I believe something, and someone can make a convincing case from the Bible that I am wrong, I will change my views! Plain and simple. It’s happened to me before, and it’ll happen again I’m sure.

pinqy: I know this is the answer you would expect from me, but I believe answer 3 is the only one that applies all the time, with answer 1 or 2 creeping in from time to time. If you were Satan, wouldn’t you want to provide the world with plenty of good sounding alternatives to the truth?

43

Just gonna throw my $.02 in here without wading too deep into the religious arguments.

I always believed that if there were indeed a god, he/she/it would be clever enough to notice that all the people on Earth (or Martians on Cygnus 1 for that matter, before any androcentric arguments get raised) were different from each other. He could either a.) insist that all humans worship him the same way, or b.) allow humans to create their own ways to try to understand him/her/it. Seems like option B would actually get more people into the fold, generally speaking. Obviously, as a negative, this sets us up for some holy wars, but I think it is not any big stretch to imagine that if we didn’t have religion to fight over, we’d just come up with something else anyway (Pink Floyd vs. Roger Waters, say).

I am not convinced that god is all that concerned that we bend over backwards not to eat meat on Friday or never to have sex during a full moon, or whatever. Just like if you have kids, sometimes the kids are a pain in the ass, sometimes they rebel, but you love 'em anyway, cuz they’re your kids.

44

Firstly, Dinsdale thank you for starting this your orginal post is a great part of the reason that I spend time reading these boards …

Secondly excuse the intrusion and the brevity of this I will try to make time to respond more fully this weekend …

I would like to relate a story somewhat based on my personal experiences …

A elderly lady faithfully visted her church at least 3 times every week except in the most extreme circumstances…
she always tithed and often gave offerings beyond her means

A neighbor a young well to do athetist often questioned (even lightly riducled) her about why and what purposed this served.

Well as providence would have it she fell ill and with the increased medical exspenses she did not have enough for food or rent. One morning on her way to church the young man berated her for still giving when her needs were so great but she confidently told him GOD would provide.

The next morning she found a bag of groceries on her step. two days later her landlord informed her someone had made her rent two months in advance. Feeling blessed and secure in her faith she was on her way to church when the young athetist said see what did I tell you I am your benefactor .
The Old lady simply looked to heaven and said thank you good for using this sinner to do your work…

Question does the story ** PROVE** EITHER WAS RIGHT

45

FriendofGod

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Is that simple enough?
On a side note:
As a former Christian, I challenge you to read these questions. If nothing else, it will make you think more.
http://www.outreachjudaism.com/questions.html

46

To clarify, that challenge goes out to the Christians who have posted here.

47

**
:eek: :eek:
so sorry for the orginal un - checked ending
MY BAD … NOW I WILL SLOWLY WALK AWAY HEAD BOWED IN SHAME…

48

Hoot mon! Aye lad, dinna ye know the Scots are God’s aun people? Frae my lips tae God’s ears!

49

El Guapo

I did poke my eyes at that link (I am not a Christian) and from what I saw it seemed fairly factual.

The only danger, of course, is someone could probably do the same thing with Judaism. I mean, can you be sure that all the claims of Judaism (or any religion for that matter) really pan out? I don’t necessarily see anything in that post that makes Christianity any more/less valid than Judaism or the worship of the great blue tree frog in the sky for that matter. All religions seem, to me, to be alternate epistemologies for understanding god.

50

just curious. why are people quoting from the bible/new testament/old testament, and trying to use that as proof of anything real. since when was anything written hundreds of times over a hundred different ways become TRUTH of anything? In what way is that a valid way to back up your preaching? What you believe is what YOU believe, and does NOT make it truth. It makes it faith. Hard to concieve any of you stating that your belief is the truth complies with your beliefs since for the most part it makes you all hipocrites(sp?) within your own belief system. Those who stand accused know who you are, and if you don’t, you have serious issues of self-centeredness and selfishness, which in case makes you sinners in your system of belief. Again, hipocrisy. Since when did someone who has been dead way before you were born have a say in where you end up after death? Especially considering everything you hear are his/her words came from more than a handful of other people before hand. Kind of like the telephone game.
Believe what you will, those of you who push your beliefs on others prove only your doubt of your own beliefs exists in the back of your minds, and you fear to be the only one doubting. You try to encourage others to believe with you, and in doing so, hope to rationilize that belief, though you will always doubt it. You don’t truly believe you are right, if you did, you wouldn’t feel the necessity to preach to others, knowing they would find the truth themselves. But obviously, you haven’t found any truths yet.

51

ummm you really don’t see the problem with that, do you? One of the things you believe is that the Bible is true. That’s a belief in itself. Is it really that difficult for you to accept that honest, intelligent people can read the Bible and either A. not find anything inspiring or believable in it more so than any other religious writing or B. believe it, but get a different interpretation from it?
Again…On what basis is your contention that your interpretation of the Bible is necessarily the right one?

Actually, I wasn’t expecting any particular answer… I had no guesses as to what you would say. But you did not answer. On what basis do you contend that it is not you that is being deceived? All you have stated is that opinions that differ from your own are wrong because they disagree with yours. You have no support for any of your statements. You declare the Bible to be true by fiat, without even realizing that believing the bible to be true is a belief and is not objectively supported.

pinqy

52

Well if I’m to understand the questions raised in the opening thread, it is to explain why I chose Atheism.

I was baptized RC and was confirmed back in 1962 as a Anglican and dropped out and re assessed my beliefs shortly thereafter. We were excommunicated from the Catholic church because my father married a divorced women so we started attending an Anglican church. All was well until the minister cornered me and tried to have his way. I was able to avoid that situation. I later saw my minister in a downtown area coming out of a known gay bar (no collar) with a couple of young men in tow. That was the turning point.
Today I watch pain and suffering ,starvation, children being beat to death, third world people giving all their money to the church in hopes of less pain and possible salvation, wars over religion and religious rites, and priests molesting entire schools and orphanages of young boys. Would a God permit those kinds of atrocities and then create a miracle by letting one person survive supposed certain death? Hogwash!

That is it in a nut shell. I’m 100% Atheist and have been for 40yrs.

53

Bad:

I am no big religious person, but it seems you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater (not always a bad idea). You listed faults of individuals, not of a presupposed god. I would definately quit organized religion given your experiences, but I don’t know if that reflects necessarily on god.

Personally I don’t think God(s) intercedes much, if at all. I mean what would the point of that be. What gives life it’s beauty is that it is precious. Take that away via random intercessions, and what would the point of sticking folks on Earth in the first place be?

54

avalongod:
Actually, I was using that as support for any particular religion. Christianity supposedly sprang from Judaism, and Christians make all these claims about the messiah, and atonement sacrifice, and fulfilled prophecy, and the afterlife, and a multitude of other things and when you look into Judaism it’s clear that they invented a whole new religion. I didn’t say Judaism was right or wrong. I am just amazed at all the proselytizing going on here and the people blinded by their own sense sureity about their beliefs and that at one time I was one of those people. I only put up that link to get people to take a step back and think for a change instead of regurgitate the same old thing over and over. I’m still stuck on a thread I put up a while ago pertaining to Judaism & Christianity and found no Christians being able to answer my questions or even debate them. I get obsessive like that sometimes. I’m working on it.

soulsing:
Sure people doubt their beliefs. And in a way, I think you are right that the more they talk to others about them, the more they are trying to quell their own doubts. Kind of like tlaking to yourself while lost in the forest, hopefully hearing the words out loud will convince you the way you are going it correct. But, at least for Christianity, it’s a command that they tell others. Just like Muslims must pray a certain number of times each day Orthodox Jews must adhere to dietary laws, Christians are told they need to tell others, the Great Commision and all. Although that part of Mark (I think it’s Mark) was not in the original manuscript. It just appeared in a later copy. Anyway, some are very open about it, while others didn’t like doing it at all. I wasn’t particularly fond of “witnessing”, while others went overboard. So, in their truth, they are commanded to preach it to you.

55

El Guapo:

I must be eating too many cinnamon cookies. That’s twice tonight I didn’t “get it” on one of your posts. Sorry. :frowning:

I do not consider myself Christian, so can’t help you answer any Christian questions (unless I were simply playing Devil’s advocate)

56

This appears to me to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black, if you will. Let me guess … being an atheist or agnostic is synonymous with “intellectual” and “logical,” right?

57

Fast: One needn’t go so far. All one needs to do is simply believe what one wishes, but realize that calling it “truth” is unjustified. I don’t know my beliefs to be true. I believe they’re true (that’s what makes them beliefs), simply because if I didn’t believe they were true I’d believe differently. But I don’t know they’re true, and I’m gonna keep doubting them until the day I die. That’s actually how you have a living faith. John Stuart Mill talks eloquently about this in On Liberty.

58

Sorry avalongod. In a nutshell, I wanted to say I wasn’t claiming Judaism was right or wrong. After that I was just ranting and probably not being particularly articulate. The previous post I mentioned was actually directed at Christians, not to athiests or agnostics.

Mmmmmm, cinnamony . . .

59

Hi pinqy. Here’s a quote from you:
“One of the things you believe is that the Bible is true. That’s a belief in itself. Is it really that difficult for you to accept that honest, intelligent people can read the Bible and either A. not find anything inspiring or believable in it more so than any other religious writing or B. believe it, but get a different interpretation from it?
Again…On what basis is your contention that your interpretation of the Bible is necessarily the right one?”

You said “that’s a belief in itself” regarding my belief that the Bible is true. Yes it is a belief, but the fact that I believe it doesn’t make it any more or less true. The Bible is God’s Word to mankind whether I “believe” it or not. If tomorrow I decide not to believe it, it changes nothing. It is what it is.

Yes I realize many people don’t believe that. I would like to point out that the so-called “interpretation” game is just that … a game. The key to reading the Bible is reading it without an agenda, which I’ll admit is difficult. In the vast majority of cases, it just says what it says and there’s nothing difficult in understanding it. We come up with various “interpretations” to make us feel comfortable or to advance a particualar “agenda”.

As an example, how difficult is it to interpret John 21:12, which starts out with this sentence:
“Jesus said to them, ‘Come and have breakfast.’”
Now if I don’t believe in ‘breakfast’, I’m SURE I could wriggle my way around this verse and somehow come up with some convoluted “interpretation” that fits my beliefs. But it’s a joke. Jesus wants his disciples to come and get some breakfast, period. Not hard to understand.

I picked a silly example, but really most of the so called interpretation battles are similar. Don’t get me wrong, there ARE legitimate passages that aren’t clear. There ARE some passages of scripture that appear at first glance to contradict each other, and it takes study to figure out what God was getting at. But the core messages of the Bible aren’t that difficult to understand. They’re just HARD TO ACCEPT, and that’s the real issue.

So my point is – my “interpretation” and your “interpretation” of the Bible are worth about 10 cents between us. The only thing that matters is what the Bible actually says, not what I want to make it say.

60

I see what that last poster is saying (sorry I forgot your handle already, and am too lazy to search for it again).

HE is arguing that whatever we do/do not believe is true about religon, somewhere out there exists and epistemological truth about it. If the bible is TRUTHFULLY god’s word, then it would be true whether we believe it or not.

But I think what everyone else (well not EVERYONE else, but other folks) is saying is that we humans can not know that epistemological truth…and that our beliefs of what that truth is are just beliefs. So your belief that the Bible is god’s word is just a belief, just like an atheist who believes there is no god is also merely expressing a belief (though many of them also vehemently insist they are more epistemologically aware than the rest of us)

It is a good day when I get to use epistemology not once, not twice, but three times in a post. :slight_smile: