Why would anyone want to be Jehovah's Witness?

Great Debates
61

I was trying to explain that the girl’s actions were understandable from her perspective, not that they were objectively right.

If the inapprobriate activity was breathing, that would certainly be unfair. Sure, breating is a lot harder to give up than romance with a loved one, but again, I was trying to explain why the girl’s actions were understandable from her perspective, not objectively right

You miss my point. My point was that teens will break rules and lie about it. When they do, they should be punished, but if every time it happened they were disowned, then no teen would have a home or a family, and that would be an unworkable solution.

You argued that ‘not seeing a loved one’ was a simple rule because it could be summed up in one sentance. I didn’t see that as relevant, as I don’t think anyone was arguing that it was too hard to understand what the rule was. This was an example of a rule that could be described as a simple rule by your one sentance criteria, but that demonstrated the difference in rule that’s simple to follow, and a rule that’s simple to explain.

Ok, here Yukionna78 argues that the rule isn’t simple to follow:

And in the very next post, you argue that the rule is simple to understand

Who were you arguing against?

We’re talking about a rule against not dating non JW boys, right? You’d agree that she’s banned from dating all non JW boys, yes? Unless you’re claiming that they just randomly selected that boy to disallow her from dating.

Setting the line too lax is irresponsible because the daughter is likely to be hurt if she dates a drug dealer/mugger/etc. Setting the line too harsh is cruel because it denies her a chance for socialization, it may cause repression, and it denies her one of the best things about being a teenager. Clearly the line can be set in the wrong place, and since it can be in the wrong place, it can be pointed out that the line is in te wrong place. Yes, it’s subjective where the right place is, and we’ll never have an objective answer to who our daughters should date, but that hardly means we can’t debate where it should be, and it doesn’t mean that the line can’t be placed arbitrarily.

For example: I could posit that teenage girls should not be allowed to date anyone dangerous, because preventing harm to our daughters is more important than letting them date woever they want. I would also posit that no one who isn’t dangerous should not be banned, because arbitrary bannings cause family strife, and put the daughter through unnecessary hardship. So the next step would be identifying dangerous groups: criminals, 40 year old men, and so forth. The JW people beleive that non JW boys deserve to go here. I would beleive they don’t. When confronted, they could point to the danger to her immortal soul as to why she shouldn’t date non JW boys, and I could poit out that I do not beleive that God dislikes interfaith relationships.

Our two standards are different, yet we both have rational, nonemotional reasons for our placement. I would even be justified in thinking they were being unnecessarily cruel for cutting out most of the dating pool, and they would be equally justified in thinking I was horribly irresponsible for ignorig the danger to my daughter’s soul.

However you’re right that hateful/hate is a much too emotionally charged word, and isn’t precise enough. and it is certainly possible for me to act irresponsibly toward my child’s health out of ignorance or fear without hating her, just as it’s possible for JW to be stiflingly overprotective out of ignorance or fear without hating her as well.

62

But they are relevant. They are members of this message board, who are Jewish and whose parents forbade them from marrying gentiles. So, you’ve called all their parents bigots as well. Zev_Steinhardt and Alessan have children. I’m positive Zev doesn’t want his son and daughter (oh, ken a hera, they’re so cute.) marrying gentiles. So, you’ve called Zev a bigot. I’m pretty sure Alessan doesn’t want his baby boy (Raphael, isn’t even a year old yet) to marry a gentile. You’ve just called Alessan a bigot.

Family feelings do have a place, when you make a general statement that includes my family.

“Parents who forbid their children to marry outside their religion, are bigots.”
“My parents did that. Are they bigots?”
“Your parents aren’t relevant to this discussion”

Either, your first statement is wrong or you must conclude that my parents, Zev_Steinhardt, Alessan, and myself are bigots.

I could try. But, I fear I’d put my foot in my mouth rather severely. However, I feel safe to begin by using the more precise term Black American culture.

No white culture. There are many European cultures. But, no universal white culture, and no White American culture.

There is no Asian culture. There is Japanese culture, Chinese culture, Korean culture etc. But, there are many differences between them.

Which Indian culture do you mean? The New Dehli kind? Or the many groups who were living in North America when European settlers showed up?

Either way, I’d say there is no Indian culture.

The country of India contains many different regions with different dialects, different languages, different traditions, and different religions (These all fall under the name Hinduism but they can be wildly different things, and some were originally seperate religions which were absorbed.). If you want detailed proof that there is no single Indian culture, ask Johanna. She’s studied the subject, and she speaks Urdu.

The many Indian tribes and nations had no single culture. Different groups spoke different languages, had different traditions, wore different clothing, and worshipped different gods. A tribe living in the forest of the Pacific northwest had a very differnt culture from a tribe living in the deserts of the southwest.

That has nothing to do with it. I say that there is no white culture because there isn’t one. There’s German culture, Russian culture, French culture, Spanish culture, Irish culture, etc. But there are no commonalities you could point out as being white culture. Further, the above cultures are not tied to race.

My point was the difference between the part of the family that is Jewish, and the part that isn’t. My point was that I can describe in great detail what has been lost as a result of intermarriage.

I had two points there. One, I admit that some cultural change is inevitable and that the ban on intermarriage isn’t some attempt to keep Jewish culture hermetically sealed against the outside world. Two, that Jews don’t hate and sneer at other cultures.

Race is a scientifically invalid concept. Even if it weren’t, what can you pass on to a kid with one phenotype that you can’t pass on to a kid with a different phenotype?

Yes. I take that second clause quite sincerely too. This isn’t a case of saying ‘some of my best friends are’. The Torah says we can kill any Moabites we find. Other than that, we should be kind to strangers, not put a stumblng block in front of the blind man, and just play nice.

But, the disapproval extends only so far as ‘you can’t marry him’. Outside of that, the parents may think the boy’s a great guy and wish him all the best. The disapproval is also not based on some unfounded fear. Intermarriage leads to children who are not Jewish. You agree that there is a Jewish culture. What happens when there are no Jews to participate in it?

63

Erm… I may have confused the first part of this quote with the second part. The parents don’t want her to see him romantically for no reason other than he wasn’t a JW. However, you’re right, he was cut out of her life because of the romantic relationship, not only because she was not a JW.

64

Not just stupid but wrong, vicious, and evil. Being an adult and a parent does not give you a license to be an asshole. Being a child does not mean you lack any moral compass or common sense.

The idea that parents are completely in the right if they treat their children as slaves and set arbitrary rules with iron fisted punishments for disobeying them is also quite novel to me.

If you have a kid, you’re obligated by law to take care of them until they are 18. Don’t act like their doing their children any favors. They HAVE TO take care of them until then.

65

Never having personally delved into the JW culture, I couldn’t say for sure. But I’ve heard the incidents in the second link I’ve provided from several sources. (The Wikipedia article on JW mentions a “neutral publication” on the topic called Apocalypse Delayed". “Neutral” in this context presumably means “Not critical of the JWs.”)

There are some other sources worth checking out, most notably the works of Raymond Franz, and ex member of the JW Governing Council. (His stuff is considered “Critical Publications”.) I haven’t read any of his works, but I have an interest in reading about modern religious movements and have heard very positive things about his books referenced in several publications. If I wanted to know more about the JWs, that’s the first place I would go.

My ex-GF’s anti-JW stance led her to get some pretty fascinating books, none of which I have referenced or referred to because a lot of it was flatly difficult to believe. It maintained some severely criminal and unethical acts by the JW founders, as well as the current governing body. It was awfully fun stuff to read, but anyone who uses critical thinking would read it and think “Yeah, right!” I selected the site I linked to because it was specifically NOT like that.

Raindog, sorry if these references are offensive. My only intention in bringing them in them is fighting ignorance.

yukionna78 FWIW I agree with you - I don’t think an organization which encourages members to kick their 16 year old daughter out to the street for having a boyfriend is one I’d want to join. Further, I’d say they don’t meet my personal criteria for having any kind of moral high ground in any respect whatsoever. They’re wasting their time knocking on my door.

66

Blake speaks of children disobeying their parents in the same way as someone who speaks of a soldier who disobeys his commanding officer. Indeed, a soldier is not expected to question authority, only obey it blindly. All my instincts go against this idea (which is why I never signed up for the army), but I can begrudgingly accept it for the military because life and death situations occur so frequently.

But a parent/child relationship like that? I think that attitude is very convienient for some parents because they don’t want their worldview questioned or challenged in any way. So they lord themselves over their children and treat them as helpless infants who are incapable of thinking or reasoning on their own until they magically gain that ability the instant they turn 18, at which point they can be thrown out on to the streets and their “wilfullness” can be comfortably forgotten about.

67

From DocCathode

If they specifically dislike an otherwise perfectly acceptable suitor for thier child, then yes that is a bigoted thing to do, and yes they are bigots then. Does that count as name calling? I don’t want to get another warning, oh well I suppose.

From DocCathode

Done, I agree with you. My reasoning for trying avoid bringing personal familial feelings into this was to avoid this exact thing happening. I suppose that can’t be done, so fine.

From DocCathode

Yes I could try as well, however just like you I would rather not taste toejam.

Ok, I will agree with the no universal white culture. I don’t get why there isn’t a white american culture if there is a black one though. Again I feel this has more to do with the hypersensitivity the white man feels then any basis in fact.

Unless of course, to have a seperate culture you need to be persecuted. Black americans have been persecuted, jewish people have been persecuted, according to you they have a culture.

I don’t recall saying they did? You are putting words in my mouth, please refrain from that.

Whats a Moabite?

Be kind so long as they aren’t trying to marry your daughter you mean.

I admit this disapproval will only extend to marriage, and relationships of that such nature. This disapproval is a preconcieved notion solely on the basis of one thing and one thing only:

What that person is.

That is wrong, that is bigoted.

You can try to justify however you want. You are justifying by saying this is what will save the Jewish Culture, if we don’t it will die. Many bigots/racists have used this logic before. You can’t do this because if you do what we believe in will die. Hell maybe saving the Jewish culture by instantly disapproving of any gentile suitors is a noble and worthy cause. The ends do not justify the means however. Do you honestly believe that disapproving of someone soley because of what they aren’t or are is not discriminatory? Not because of there actions, not because of their attitude, but because they don’t believe in the same God as you, maybe in no God at all?

In any other instance that parallels this I don’t even think we would be having this discussion, however because the culture you happen to be a member of is under attack (and it isn’t just Judaism, any religious group that would do the same thing is under attack, so I would imagine that would mean all of them) you are now personally offended.

68

I don’t think hypersensitivity has anything to do with it. I’ve heard of Pan-Africanism. I’ve never heard of Pan-Europeanism.

Persecution has nothing to do with it. I also said the Russians, Germans, and French had a culture.

I never claimed you said that. Don’t accuse me of putting words in your mouth when I haven’t done anything remotely like putting words in your mouth.

No, even then you should be kind. But, you should prevent them from marrying your daughter.

You used that comparison before. It fell apart then too. What exactly is a racist claiming will die out? White culture? No such thing exists. Southern culture? Plenty of nonwhite people participate in southern culture. What is the racist defending? Point to it, describe it to me. Prove it exists. Don’t just tell me ‘It exists for him’. If it actually exists, show it to me.

I, on the other hand, can show you exactly what I’m defending. You have even admited to the existence of Jewish culture. I don’t think anybody here would argue that Judaism does not exist as a religion.

In this case, they do.

It is because of their actions- actions like practicing a different religion, actions like not wanting to convert to Judaism, and actions like wanting to marry my daughter.

It is because of their attitude-their attitude that Judaism is not the right religion for them or any kids they’ll have, their attitude that my child marrying a gentile is no big deal and I should just get over it.

What other instance parallels this discussion?

I expected to be personally offended since I read the OP. I’ve participated in threads on intermarriage before.

BTW- I was not trying to lure Queuing into a trap where he would call me a bigot and be warned or banned. If you say ‘People who do A are bigots’ and I say ‘My parents do that’, then the only proper response is ‘Then your parents are bigots’. Failure to follow from a general rule to a specific case shows lack of logic and reasoning skills. Failure to say something you believe to be true, and to defend that statement just because some one might be offended, shows a lack of guts. People who cannot reason or use logic cannot be debated with. People without guts just make me sick.

I hold a position Queuing believes to be bigotted. He called me a bigot. My only problem is that it took him so long to say what he meant.

69

Leviosaurus
I [sincerely] appreciate the comment; and in fact I am not offended in the slightest. Quite the opposite.

I respect your comments to yukionna78, although I would obviously disagree. Of course, none of us know the exact details, but in my view, it would be both unloving and immoral to not expect my daughter to maintain an acceptable moral code while living in my home. That need not be a militant thing–and any expectations—including discipline–should be administered in love.

I’m not the only one who found the details of the OP fishy, and more than a few people have challenged the assertions as written. I have opinion on the OP, other than to say—in general terms---- I would not accept an openly rebellious teenager who was lying to me, staying out night long, and in a sexual relationship with some other minor. I would not look to sever our relationship—and I know hard the teen years can be—but a teenage child cannot be allowed to run wild. Is that the case with the OP? Don’t know. Every situation is different.

Incidentally, I agree with your view on fighting ignorance. The only difference in my view is that if someone wishes to know about any group—go to that group first. You’ll get their views, untainted by others. Like you, I have seen some information about JWs that was so bad I actually thought it was a parody. Yet, they were sincere.

That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t hear from their detractors as a means of fighting ignorance–and getting a balanced view.

70

According to that logic,Queuing, just about everyone is a bigot. Some people may not want to marry a person because they don’t find certain physical characteristics attractive. Others may not want to marry someone because of their occupation. Others will only want people with certain personality characteristics. Most people discriminate by looking for someone in a specific age range. We all discriminate based on values that each of us holds individually (or will you truly just go out with anyone who walks through the door?). I may not be attracted to redheads and so I won’t consider going out with one. I may not want to deal with someone who posed in Playboy and so I’ll choose not to go out with her. That’s hardly bigoted - it’s putting one’s preferences first.

Someone in another thread asked “Would your child be allowed to date someone of a different race/ethnicity/creed?”

Here was my answer:

When one looks for a mate, they bring their own ideas of what they want out of a marriage to the table. Different people look for different values. Some marry for love, some for wealth and some for other reasons. And we all have expectations of our spouses in marriage. Some expect thier spouses to not try to kill them. Others expect their spouses to work, others to stay home a raise a family. Whatever works for each couple. In my case, my prime goal was to see to it that I raise a home and family where the Torah’s principles and precepts are kept. That could only be done by marrying another Orthodox Jew - it just couldn’t be done any other way.

That being said, why is my goal to raise a Torah home any worse than someone else’s desire not to marry a blonde (or a readhead, or a woman with a great figure)? Why are my expectation for a Torah home from marriage any worse than another person’s want of a house and country club membership?

We all know what we want from marriage. One person may want a woman in her 20s, with a decent figure, sense of humor and love of travel. Another may want a stay-at-home romantic type who must be at least 5 foot 7. Another may want someone who shares his passion for the Yankees. Why should my desire to build a home according to a religious philosiphy and way of life be any worse than that?

Zev Steinhardt

71

Well then what the heck was the point of that statement?

Fine, then we can use the american black culture. A black person, by your admission has a culture. If they dislike a white guy dating there daughter there are very few it wouldn’t say that was bigoted. You may be one of those few.

[QUOTE=DocCathode]

It is because of their actions- actions like practicing a different religion, actions like not wanting to convert to Judaism, and actions like wanting to marry my daughter.

It is because of their attitude-their attitude that Judaism is not the right religion for them or any kids they’ll have, their attitude that my child marrying a gentile is no big deal and I should just get over it.

[QUOTE]

Umm, yeah. Not buying that. It is because they aren’t jewish, thats it.

So now I don’t use reason or logic? All you have said is no no no because Jews are different. Thats about it. Fine, dislike me. I tend to dislike bigots as well, so I guess we are even.

Next time I hear you making a bigotted statement I will come right out and say it. I was somewhat worried about being in trouble with the mods. I am new here, don’t know the people or the rules. I thought name calling was against the rules, so I refrained from it. Have no fear, in the future I am sure I will have another chance to quickly point out that you are a bigot.

72

Not even close to the same thing.

From dictionary.com: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I see nothing there about hair colour, physical fitness or what their occupation is. I do however see something there about religion.

I see nothing there about what the PARENTS want, or how the parents would treat said childs choice. Those are all personal choices. Of course everyone is allowed to marry whoever the hell they please. However, if your child chooses someone who doesn’t please you before you even get to know them, you are discriminating against them. In this case because they aren’t jewish. See definition above.

To be perfectly honest I don’t even have a personal problem because of this. As much as DocCathode thinks I am gutless for not coming out and saying it, I think he and you are also gutless to not even admit that you are bigoted in this case. Yes, you are a bigot as well (wouldn’t want to be even more gutless).

73

Why are choices regarding religion, race, politics or “group” (however you wish to define that) bigoted but choices regarding physical appearence, age, social class or wealth not bigoted. I fail to see the distinction.

But then again, aren’t I allowed to have hopes and aspirations as to how my kids turn out? Aren’t I allowed an opinion if a kid of mine wants to marry a worthless bum, for example?

I want my children (and I would imagine most people want the same for their children) to have the same outlook on life and share the same values that my wife and I hold. And part of those values, at least in my case, involve raising a family in a certain lifestyle and according to certain rules. As I stated above, I certainly won’t have the power to forbid my kids to date someone I don’t want them to date; but I’m certainly allowed to have an opinion and to express discontent if they don’t end up with the values that I spent over twenty years trying to instill in them.

Fair enough. You’re entitled to your opinion. I certainly have my faults, but being a bigot simply because I have certain expectations in life and marrying for reasons that are important to me is not among them.

Zev Steinhardt

74

Upon re-reading of this post, it occurs to me that one might infer from this that I was making the statement that non-Jews are “worthless bums.” That was not my intention. It was simply an example, which I did not adequately clarify.

Zev Steinhardt

75

This isn’t a private conversation we’re having. Other people are reading it. Some of the points I made were for their benefit.

They’d have to have a better objection than ‘He’s white!’. How is his culture (if any), incompatible with Black American culture? What reasons, if any, couldn’t the kids be raised in both cultures?

So, you’re just ignoring my arguments?

No, but you lack reading comprehension. I never said you lacked reason or logic. I said you exhibited behavior A, and that in my experience people who did that were either B, or C. When you mentioned a mod warning, it became clear you were actually D- afraid of the mods. I never accused you of lacking reason or logic.

And you just keep trotting out the same analogy I shot down the first time, making unwarranted assumptions from my posts, and refusing to acknowledge my arguments.

That’s all I ask folks.

76

Thanks, raindog. You sound like a good person.

My opinion, my code of beliefs - you child is your responsibility, and you don’t give up on them. The exception might be when the kid has done something so bad that they need to go to prison. Short of that, you don’t kick your kid out into the street, period. If you have to take them to detox, okay. If they are running so wild that your only option is to mortgage your house to send them to military school, then that’s what you do. But you don’t walk away from your responsibility.

Kicking a 16 year old girl out into the night? She could have been picked up by a stalker, she have been kidnapped or killed, she could have ended up having to prostitute herself to survive. What could she have done that was so bad as to leave her to that fate? She’s extremely lucky she had friends to turn to.

I know the JW is extremely close. Yet she went to a non-JW house for sanctuary. What does that say about the way she’d been raised and what she believed? Who raised her to believe that? Were they taking responsibility for her?

Let’s suppose for a moment that she was the living incarnation of the devil, even committing murder. By kicking her out, her parents would essentially be dumping her on the rest of society to deal with. Shouldn’t they try to rehabilitate her? I would personally feel that, as the one who raised her, I bear a responsibility to prevent her from harming others. So even in the if the worst case scenario is true, I don’t think they should have kicked her out.

I’d be less critical if this were the first time I’ve heard such stories about JW families, but I’m sorry to say it isn’t. I do believe there are a lot of good people in the JW organization. Perhaps those who are good should endevor to educate the rest on the JWs who are perhaps not in touch with these concepts.

Please understand, I don’t say these things to be argumentative. I say them to make clear how these actions appear to someone far outside the JW community. If the JW mission is to evangelize and recruit, one would think improving the appearance of the organization to non-JWers would be a priority. The Church could certainly change their policy with regards to taking care of your children - as my links show, they’ve changed policy in much more dramatic fashion before.

Thanks for reading, raindog. Once again, I hope I haven’t offended you. If so, I apologize - this is a hotbutton issue for me, so I may be less politic than is normally my nature.

77

The OP was about a parent forbidding someone for dating a non-JW, and furthermore going as far to kick them out of their lives for doing so. So while they maybe didn’t have the power to forbid them, the daughter is paying the price of their intolerance.

I did not think you were insuitating that all new Jewish people were worthless bums. I took that to mean you wouldn’t want your daughter marrying a worthless bum, even if he was jewish. That is acceptable.

If your daughter came home with a guy, is your first question is he jewish? That seems to be your number 2 concern (number one not being a worthless bum ie drug dealer, etc, etc). In fact you wouldn’t like someone, and would treat them very differently if they weren’t jewish. Again justify as please, I will call them as I see them.

To DocCathode , I am well aware that this isn’t a private conversation and others are reading it. Still don’t see the point of what you said when it had not been raised or questioned in any of the posts.

Why would he need to have a better explanation then ‘he’s white’. Your explanation is ‘he’s a gentile’. You can easily point out instances of Jewish culture being a member of such. How is jewish culture different from gentile culture? Particulalry if said suitor didn’t celebrate x-mas, and was say a vegan or something. It just is, of course it is. Same could be said for the afro-american culture being sullied by some white folk entering into it.

I didn’t think it was much of arguement. All you said was they aren’t jewish in a different way.

How have I refused to acknowledge your arguements? Disagreeing and acknowledgement are two different things.

Saying A is usually b and C as well, and then sayin I am A is just a backhanded way of saying I am b and c as well. Yet you accuse me of being gutless?

Where have I made unwarranted assumptions from your posts? I have explicitly said what I am getting from you. I disagree with them. You disagree with me. You even brought in some back up to disagree with me, fine with me.

Apparently where we stand now is your a bigot, and I have reading comprehension problems.

Unless something new gets said by either one of us (which hasn’t happened in a few posts) I see no point in going any further with this. Good day.

78

I wasn’t accusing you of that. I realized that the way I wrote my post it could be read that way and took preventive measures to clarify.

To be honest, I hope that I raise my kids to hold the same values to the extent where they (like I) would not even think about dating a non-Jew. As such, I hope to be in a position where I never even have to ask the question to begin with.

Would I not like them? No - that’s not true. I have relatives who have married non-Jews and I happen to like their spouses very much. They’re fine people.

But would I think that they are compatible with the type of home that I hope my children would build for themselves? No. That’s altogether different than liking them or not liking them.

BTW, you never answered my earlier question. I’ll repeat it:

Zev Steinhardt

79

AARGH!!

I didn’t mean to include Queuing’s reply to Doc Cathode in my last post. Can a mod please clean that up for me?

Thanks.

Zev Steinhardt

80

Subsequent posts reveal that she was also having sex with him. I disagree with kicking her out, but it wasn’t simply that she was dating a non-JW.

Because that’s an objection based only on genetics. There is no demonstration that the children’s genes will prevent their participation in Black Culture.

There is no such thing as ‘gentile culture’. For that to exist, all gentiles would have to share a common language, or traditions, or etc.

Here the objection is to religion. His religion will certainly effect the kids as he’ll be one of the two people feeding, clothing, teaching, and otherwise raising them.

Heck, going by those criteria he could be a devout Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Pagan. None of those are acceptable suitors either.

Now, that I find genuinely insulting. I’ve repeatedly explained how it is different. I can identify and describe the thing I fear will be wiped out (you even admitted that it exists). I can point to many cases of intermarriage leading to kids who aren’t Jewish.

You keep bringing up comparisons to people defending something that they can’t define or describe (the Klansman), or can’t explain how the children of intermarriage will be unable to participate (the black mother in your above post).

I never claimed Judaism and Jewish culture would be “sullied” by intermarriage. I claimed they would cease to exist. Once again, you’ve made faulty analogy.

You keep comparing my position to ones where the objector is citing some undefined harm and is unable to explain how intermarriage will cause this. I have explained the harm, and cited examples. Intermarriage leads to kids who are not Jewish.

The only thing I’ve accused you of is poor reading comprehension. I renew that accusation.

Your assumption that I believed only peoples who were persecuted could have a culture springs to mind.