"Wife always right, even when she's wrong" - Implications for women's characters?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I will agree that members of both sexes fall prey to the “I am always right!” fallacy. They may do it for different reasons (e.g. some may just assume they are naturally superior, while others may get emotionally invested in their positions). Those reasons may or may not be gender aligned as well. I certainly don’t have the data to determine that.

I will posit that one source of the meme is the gender roles of the past. In the ideal nuclear family of the 50s and 60s with the stay-at-home mother, the assumption a strict division of spheres. In that situation, with the only control a wife had being how she kept house, I can see the need to let the wife have her way at home in almost all things.

The same is probably true in most healthy relationships today, just hopefully with less socially imposed spheres of interest. For example, in my marriage I care a lot less about how things look than my wife does. When it comes to picking the paint color, I may make suggestions or give opinions, but in the end I let her make the choice because she cares more and thinks about it more. On the other hand when it came time to buy her a new laptop, even though she is the one using it, I picked it out based on what she wanted to use it for. In the final analysis she cared enough about paint to know that bedrooms should be eggshell and kitchens should be semigloss and I care about computers enough to know if a dedicated graphics accelerator is worth an extra $200 on a machine that will mostly be used to surf the net and watch youtube videos.

Jonathan

62

There’s also the dynamic of
A: “if you don’t like the way I ______, then do it yourself!”
B: “uh, in that case, just keep doing what you’re doing”.

I think this line of reasoning generally does not favor men, for a variety of reasons too humbling to name.

63

Yes, I understood what you assumed–that I was an unreasonable bitch. But I thought I’d give you the benefit of the doubt before blasting you unfairly.

And yes, I think automatically parsing that statement as me calling the guy the asshole is assuming that I’m an unreasonable bitch. Because there’s two ways to interpret what I said. One, that I’m calling the person who has to be right all the time an asshole. Two, that I’m calling the person dealing with the one who has to be right all the time an asshole. The former is the position of a sane, reasonable person. The latter is the position of someone who is neither sane nor reasonable, and that’s the choice you automatically attributed to me without any clarification. One has to wonder what’s up with that.

It feeds into what I’ve always privately suspected was the true root of why this meme sticks around. It’s an outgrowth of the automatic, almost subconscious assumption a lot of guys seem to make that women are crazy bitches. It’s the Nice Guy argument all over again–the axiom only makes sense if you work from the assumption that women are, by and large, crazy bitches.

Let me introduce you to every single man in my family, especially on Dad’s side. Of course, my aunt is the exact same way. My female cousins and I refer to it as the familial Rightness Gene–we’re genetically incapable of being wrong. We’re able to see it in ourselves, try to temper the effects, and laugh at ourselves. My brother will grudgingly admit that the Rightness Gene has asserted itself and hush if you point it out to him, but my father becomes nearly apoplectic if you mention the Rightness Gene.

(And yes, I warned my husband about the Rightness Gene, several months before we ever started dating. He seemed to think it was funny. At the time, anyway.)

64

we weren’t taling about a specific case, but a broad statement that the husband should let the wife think she’s correct and let her win.

65

So, this I also don’t get. So, in a given argument where both sides of a couple think they’re right, the major options are for them to continue discussing it until they reach an agreement, agree to disagree, or for one partner to give in.

Is it equally abusive if the husband expects his wife to give in, even if she’s right? I don’t see how thinking you’re right is, by itself, abusive, because in a disagreement, each partner pretty much thinks they’re right by definition.

Even expecting an apology is just an expectation- the husband always has the option of leaving, or just not giving it if he thinks the wife is that far off base. Now, if verbal abuse follows, that’s a problem, but an expectation leaves both partners with the option of fulfilling the expectation or not. If the dire consequence of not fulfilling it is that your partner leaves, it might be a ridiculous expectation, but I wouldn’t qualify it as abuse if no verbal abuse is actually taking place.

Now, if there’s verbal abuse accompanying the disagreement, I get that.

66

One of my boyfriends in college flatly said “Of course I always think I am right. If I thought I was wrong I would have changed my mind already.” I laughed my ass off but he had a point. What you are missing in your, er, analysis of what it is that men say to each other implies about women is (again) that women also say it about men. And men say it about men and women say it about women.

Let me put this by itself as it is the bit you seem to be having difficulty with:

The evidence suggests that this is a fairly common behavior displayed by humans irrespective of gender. Apologizing when one is not sorry is another behavior displayed by humans irrespective of gender.

Since men and women are more alike in all ways than they are unalike, most behaviors are. There are of course differences which it seems to me mostly have to do with sexual attraction and driving.

67

I think you guys are misunderstanding the thrust of the “advice” men give to each other, i.e. “Your wife is always right even when she’s wrong”

This is not about what percent of women versus men think they are “always right”. Maybe it’s the same, maybe it’s different, who knows?

This is about the observation, from men, that when they discuss with their wife many issues, if they continue to discuss beyond a certain point, she will get angry/upset/etc and the men will “pay for it” in some way. This is not about whether they actually convince the woman or not.

Common female behaviors observed when the discussion gets heated and isn’t going the way the woman wants it to:
[ul]
[li]Bring up irrelevant things that the guy did in the past, to “win” the current discussion or at least to silence him[/li][li]Unilaterally declare that this is the end of the discussion on this topic[/li][li]Bring up unrelated “threats” that are way outside of the scope of any argument in support of their case[/li]e.g. this gem from Dio “My wife said fuck my First Amendment. She said I could go downstairs and fuck my First Amendment on the couch. She said I could go live with my First Amendment in the car.”
[/ul]

I don’t think guys behave like that. Yes, there are guys who always think they’re right, but the symptom of that is that they keep on arguing their point. They don’t reach points in discussions when if the woman keeps arguing her point, he gets upset and asks the woman to sleep on the couch or gives her the silent treatment.

If women have frequently observed the above behaviors in the men they have dated/married, I’d be happy to hear about it and change my mind.

I should add that, the way I see the axiom, it is not even about the wife doing any of the things in the list above. Even if she gives in and smiles and says “Yes, honey”, the guy will, in some way, pay for it later. So it’s best for the guy to just give in on all the little issues, at least according to this axiom. As I have stated in the OP, I don’t live by it, and I witness the results, in the form of the behaviors mentioned above.

Finally, some people’s responses indicate that the issues being discussed are always facts (who won the Super Bowl, what was so and so’s name, etc), when in reality a lot of the issues are not fact-based and can’t be looked up on Wikipedia (e.g. should we allow the kid to watch this movie or not, should we take that cake out of the oven now or give it a few more minutes, etc)

68

I think those things might depend on one’s perspective. I can’t speak to the “go sleep on the couch” thing, because I’ve never experienced it. I have observed the silent treatment thing, though, amusingly, exclusively among men. However, I’ve easily seen as many men as women unilaterally end a discussion because it wasn’t going well for them.
As for the “irrelevant” things, that depends on who thinks they’re relevant. If I’m having a hypothetical argument with my husband about housework, he may very well think it’s irrelevant that I bring up previous occasions on which he’s left me holding the bag, even if they aren’t directly housework-related, because to me housework and its resolution is part of the whole picture of how we divide labor in our relationship, while to him the argument is about nothing but one specific task. Saying someone’s arguments are “irrelevant” seems somewhat condescending, as though you should be the sole arbiter of what’s worth discussing.

69

I just remembered of a study where they showed how women in satisfied couples were more domineering in discussions with their spouses. Here is an article and here is the abstract of the paper

“We actually just asked them to start talking about the issue, and then we left the room,” …

The researchers reviewed and coded the videotapes of couples’ interactions using a widely-accepted interaction rating system. The system consists of five dimensions to calculate demand and withdraw behaviors – avoidance, discussion, blame, pressure for change, and withdraws. …

The researchers concluded in their paper that wives behaviorally exhibited more domineering attempts and were more dominant

70

Does this sound like the makings for an episode of National Geographic to anyone else? For some reason, this puts to mind a guy creeping around the brush with a camera in hand and a tape recorder.

Anyway, in response, I have seen guys behave this way and I don’t think you can extrapolate anything about either sex from such behavior. That said, to address bullet one, most arguments I’ve witnessed are cyclical arguments. In other words, they’re the same damn argument, brought up over and over again. For some couples, it’s financial; for others, it’s about cleaning; for still others, it might be childrearing. Or it could be some combination. Either way, if my husband and I are having one of our cyclical arguments (usually ours are about household responsibilities), I try very hard not to bring up past arguments; however, he frequently brings them up because we’re both saying the same damn thing we have in every other argument, leaving us then arguing about the past, not about the current problem.

To address the second bullet, I don’t think it’s always bad to end an argument if you’re getting to a point where you’re not making progress in working out your issues or if you’re in danger of saying something you know you’ll regret later. My husband frequently ends arguments when it becomes clear we’re not getting anywhere or one of us is getting so upset that he or she is in danger of losing it.

As for the third, I’d like to think that most reasonable adults (men and women) would agree that bringing up any sort of “threat” in an argument is really underhanded. For example, I would never tell my husband that we’re never having sex again if he disagrees with me. First, that would be wrong, ridiculous and very hard to maintain; second, I’d be shooting myself in the foot.

It’s hard to go off of Dio’s example because, possibly because I am female, I don’t interpret it the same way you might. Perhaps you think she’s literally suggesting that Dio live in the car; I don’t because that would be ridiculous.

71

Interesting, though 72 isn’t a huge sample size.

The study does not necessarily support the idea that this is abusive behavior, though, if it’s a trait of happy marriages. They also mentioned near the end that the husbands were responding favorably to what the wives were saying; not only giving in.

72

If I apologize when my wife is upset then she will stop being upset. Therefore, regardless of my analysis of who did what, I usually try to find a way to apologize.

However, when you do this you must never say, “Well, whatever you think it is I did, I’m sorry.” You have to gin up something plausible.

I made a nearly fatal error last week. We were packing to leave for a weekend trip and running late, so my wife was getting nerve-wracked trying to get her stuff together while I was packing the kids into the car. (Wracked nerves are kind of her ground state.) She was looking for something and grabbed my sportcoat and threw it in a bunch on the seat to see what was under it, and just generally freaked out.

Later, as we drove, she said, “I’m sorry.” I said, “For what?” She said, “Well for getting all upset, and throwing things around…” I said, “That’s OK Babe, I know how it is.”

A few silent moments later there was a slight chill in the air and she said, “Well, you could say you’re sorry too.”

And then I said it. I said, “What did I do?”

The correct answer would have been, “I’m sorry too, Babe. Let’s start over again and enjoy the trip.”

73

So now I’m curious. What did you do? Did see ever fill you in? Or were you expected to read her mind?

74

I’m starting to think you have an agenda here. Lots of women and men have come into this thread and told you that your oft-quoted axiom is wrong. And you haven’t changed your mind. Are you one of those always-right people? Hmm.

I don’t want to go into specifics but yes. Been in those situations. My ex used to cry to get his way. He’d also scream and throw things.

75

I am always expected to read her mind :smiley: She said something like, “Well, you were getting upset too.” When she was rummaging around, I went back in the house to stay out of the line of fire. She may have interpreted that as a hostile act, though I saw it as self-preservation. I didn’t say anything, I just got out of the way. Based on my telling, I’m sure that different people imagine it playing out in different ways. I’ll just say that I was calm and she was agitated and I was trying not to make her more agitated.

76

Most likely I am, but – and here is the crux – I’m not getting upset about the continuation of this discussion, I’m just arguing my point back and forth with people. I enjoy the back-and-forth of ideas and arguments from both sides.

I’m not going to ask you guys to sleep on the couch if you don’t stop arguing with me :slight_smile:

77

Being too calm can backfire on you too, though.

78

Yeah, obviously it’s because you just don’t care about whatever it is, and so by extension you don’t care about her.

79

This is a perfect example of what he’s talking about. Rather than offer any proof that men will react in the way he said women do, you impugn his motives for asking the question. That is not kosher. It’s just a round-about ad hominem: your motives are wrong, so your argument must be wrong, so I don’t have to respond. By saying his argument has an agenda, you’ve effectively impugned his character.

It’s also poisoning the well, as now, if anyone agrees with him, that person must also have an agenda. How do you respond when your motives for your position are challenged? You either have to withdraw, or change to explaining why your motives are pure. Either way, such a tactic changes the argument, putting you on much less solid ground.

This sort of thing leads to my answer for the OP: the reason for this advice being given to men and not women is that, women, being stereotypically better communicators, are better at defending their position. Ergo, it’s much more work for the stereotypical guy to continue arguing than for a woman. This makes the guy more likely to seek advice to deal with the situation.

Women also seem more likely to already know how to use this trick, and need no advice on it. And men seem more likely to be absolutists, and believe that all lying is wrong. Such a technique would therefore not occur to them. And it also explains why a man would me more likely to complain about it.

As for scriptural evidence for fundamentalist misogyny: I know quite a few fundies (in the sense that they believe the Bible literally) who have an equal partnership, if not one where the woman is the head of the house. They both believe the same Scripture, so it would seem that something else is also influencing them. I don’t see why my both of our positions can’t be accurate.

80

I see what you’re saying, but I disagree that I’m willfully impugning his motives to weaken his argument. If that had been his first post I would almost agree with you, however, that was on the second page after a whole slew of posts about men who do have the always-right outlook. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to question someone’s motives when their question, “If women have frequently observed the above behaviors in the men they have dated/married, I’d be happy to hear about it and change my mind,” follows about fifty posts saying, “My husband is always right in the way stereotypical women are.”

I also gave evidence that men react in the way women are said to. Did you not read that bit? My ex was really bad at not sticking to the point in an argument and trying to win it in other ways.