The topic isn’t what liberals should have done though. It’s what are the commonalities or ties between conservatism, Republicanism, and trumpism. Clearly you won’t “like” the liberal responses. So what? Why does that mean you can never be understood. You’re at it a lot for someone who says they have no voice.
Your pessimism is operative when you can’t defend something. When you think you can you have no such objection.
Are you saying that there are no ties between the three things? He is a republican and he is doing lots of conservative stuff, in addition to being unfit for office. Those are facts. Is that too partisan for you to address in any way? Facts are too partisan?
Any conservative who admits trump is unfit for office might have some insight, if they are brave. Will you?
You sound like a miserable and hopeless eternal victim. Why are you here?
Fair enough, divemaster. I still really appreciate you. It makes sense that you wouldn’t mind a President Pence, and you are clearheaded about why Trump is horrendous, period. You and I would disagree on many topics, but I would emerge from a conversation without that feeling of dumbfounded despair I would (and do) with any Trump supporter.
Fair enough. But they are chosen to be examples of controversial single issues.
A lot of these are issues that are used to marshall support from people who believe in them very strongly, but are are being pushed for electoral advantage, by people who don’t particularly care, if you follow me.
Single issue activists on the right in other words. Is this single issue activism healthy for the country, or the electorate?
I’ll let divemaster speak for him/herself, but it sounded like he/she had a cohesive, well-rounded world view that aligns with, say, much of Pence’s agenda pre-veep. No reason to suspect singleminded “one issue” obsessiveness. Those tend to be Trump voters, right?
I am also not a conservative, and I don’t pretend to speak for any. But today I saw something that quoted an apparently self-avowed supporter of Trump, and I think it’s pertinent here. I hope the link to the tweet works:
It shows a screenshot from what I think is Reddit, and the supporter of the President says this about the current impeachment inquiry and Trump’s reaching out to foreign governments for political dirt: “I think what most liberals are missing is that this isn’t about right and wrong, it’s about winning and losing. I’ve attached my entire worldview to this man and I am going down with the ship. Not one of you is going to convince me otherwise.”
Yes. I posted this earlier today in the “simple question” thread:
“Don’t you get it? Real life, including political matters, is just a sport. There are exactly two sides, and you’re either in one side, or the other. And there’s a score — two unambiguous numbers that increase over time, one for one side and one for the other.
At least, that’s exactly how every Republican I’ve ever met sees the world. Why, I have no idea. I really don’t.”
But come on now - do you even notice what’s happening? You claim you want serious discussion. I point out how that probably can’t happen because Dopers don’t read things they are afraid might contradict them. Then divemaster posts the way you claim you want, and you don’t even see his three points.
In a thread last year, the question was asked why liberals tend to take electoral defeat harder than conservatives (YMMV, of course.) One theory put forth was that many conservatives tend to see it as akin to a football game, where Red outscored Blue 34-27 in the Electoral Super Bowl (or, conversely, maybe lost to the Blues 17-10.)
(That’s not to say, of course, that people don’t take sports losing well - we all know people who lose their shit because of a stinging sports loss, maybe for years or decades. Bostonians were smarting over the Bill Buckner game for sixteen years. But the mindset is often different.)
Well I am trying to open up some discussion about single issue voting and what it means for the OP. That means for the poster too.
I’m not bashing the poster. But you seem to be trying to head off such a discussion by making sure we all like each other etc. and never talk about something that is uncomfortable.
One issue issues are obsessive by definition and design. trump voters are a recent phenomenon, but SIVs are from way way back right? He doesn’t own them.
IMHO, one of the biggest favors Trump has done for the Republican Party is that he has made “normal” Republican conservatism look good to many liberals. It used to be that McCain and Romney were reviled by the (D)'s in 2008 and 2012, but today they are praised by many Democrats. And here divemaster has posted a traditional, mainstream, Republican Christian worldview that many liberals would have reviled before 2015 or so, but now is held up as a solid, good-faith, even honorable, alternative-to-Trump worldview. The Overton Window has shifted.
Hey, what better time to jump back into the fray than when i for the first time (ever?) find myself in total agreement with The Shodster. And its hardly a controversial statement. This board is populated (or at least the posts and threads of a political and/or debate nature are dominated) nearly exclusively by members of one particular branch on the left-leaning side of the Democratic Party.
When any forum features a lack of diversity in thought, belief and/or values, regardless of what the specific homogeneity of those concepts may be, the same phenomenon results. Namely a collective hive mind forms a cocoon around the intellectual space of that forum (I hate the term "hive mind"too but it’s apt here) and new unique critical thinking on political-socio-cultural issues stagnates or just never really flourishes.
If independence of thought is expressed, it’s characterized by members of the supermajority here (and elsewhere) as such a mockable, disingenuous, morally empty position in order to marginalize and silence any further expression of dissent from the hive mind positions. So in the end, you dont have many with dissenting thought hanging around such meeting places. And why would they? Masochism? How many liberal dopers are long term members of conservative forums? It’s almost a seemingly inevitable quagmire for intellectual meeting grounds that debate or discuss polarizing and emotionally fraught subjects. Sooner or later, big bank always takes little bank.
The fundamental error here is trying to figure out the conservatives who support Trump. Trump got elected because a lot of rust-belt blue collar workers, who until then had been one of the most reliable Democratic voters (and vote organizers!) voted for him.
They voted for him not out of deeply held conservative beliefs (beliefs the man doesn’t have anyway). They voted for him because their way of life was (is!) under threat. They will likely not retire from a job paying 40 bucks an hour and with Union protection. Their kids certainly will not have that opportunity. Their way of life is evaporating. At the same time, the white middle aged male subsection of that contingent (a significant portion of the group) is being told they are and have been quite privileged, and it is implied or outright said, that it is time for them to hand over some of that privilege. Trump, by pushing every doorbell on the 50 floor apartment building of politics, hit on these issues, and rode them home.
Now it’s 3 years later. These people identified with him. They have been listening to media so thinly sliced that they will only ever hear stuff that aligns with their thinking. It is natural to have an us-vs- them mindset, especially if the other side is helping with the rhetoric for same. They may genuinely believe that the alternative to Trump is the end of the world. Good luck getting them back: moving further left isn’t going to get it done.
Another portion of the Trump voters are the religious right, they will vote for whoever the republican candidate is, no matter what, unless they advocate pro-choice policies.
Conservatives or Republicans who see Trump for what he is, don’t have much of an alternative. Some of us will write-in Bob Dole next election, if the man is still alive. And some of us will vote D, depending on the candidate.
Well it can be a place for liberals to share insight into the OP, and also at the same time not be about what they “should have done.” Those are two different things right?
If you wander down that road I’m not going to stop you. But lets define the thread adequately ok?
By the way, the “small c” guys walked away in disgust - starting with Bill Buckley himself. The current party is the Trump party, the fascist party, may as well call it the American Nazi party if / when it goes any further.
I wouldn’t say I’d be “quite” happy, but I think a President Pence would be a return to more or less normal behavior within the Executive branch, and I suspect that the policies would moderate as well.
Oh the irony. Every time the glorious orange one does anything all you skyscreamers come running here with spittle on your chin and burst blood vessels in your brain to start 2847w82 threads.
Yes. True, the Overton window has moved, regrettably. But at this point, to trot out that P J O’Rourke chestnut one more time, at least Pence is “wrong within normal parameters.”
At this point, I’d be THRILLED to have a President who simply didn’t tweet at the English level of a deranged three-year-old. How sad that simply this would make me so happy.
