Grim times for Utd and David Moyes - a horrible reverse to Liverpool yesterday, and the vultures aren’t so much circling, as booking in for bed and breakfast. Next 3 games - Olympiakos (CL), West Ham (away) and Citeh (home).
Think if the current level of abject performance continues through those three games he’ll be sacked. I can think of good reasons not to sack him, like there’s no real point at this stage, and everyone can see the team was finished at the top level when he took over, and needs comprehensive re-building. (Also financial implications to a massive pay-off, but possibly that is not a big deal to Utd).
But there’s still a basic level of performance expected - the fans are wearing it with remarkable stoicism, setting an example for other clubs tbh, but I think we’re at the stage where that’s going to fold if they see another capitulation. And if that happens Moyes is out the door.
I think most United fans are well aware of the squad deficiencies, and had accepted that this season was going to be difficult. But Moyes has gone beyond that, he simply has not done a single thing well since he joined the club, he is doing a horrible job by whatever metric you can think off.
He has also lost that dressing room, and once that happens its only a matter of time really.
He should last the season - after all, what is the alternative at this point? There’s not really anyone that can come in and rectify the issues that the squad has at this late stage of the season.
If the question is: does he get fired/released at the end of the season, I’d say that there’s good chance. Whatever, I can’t see Manchester United making the same mistake that they did last year (i.e. inactivity in the transfer market), so if he stays, he’s going to need to bring in players but if he goes, he needs to be gone quickly and replacement lined up sharp, so as they can spend the money they need to, to fix the squad.
I’m a Carlisle United fan, so have no axe to grind on this particularly but I am quite keen for Manchester United to go away for a few years. I’d like there to be some fluidity at the top of the league, otherwise it will just be the same clubs every year. Admittedly, the fall off from Man U has only really helped Liverpool but I am also quite keen for Spurs to make a breakthrough at some point - otherwise it will just be the monied clubs/clubs who get in the Champions League every year, pulling further and further away.
I really don’t think it’s fair to let him go so early. He acquired an aging team. Just about every player on the regular squad is past his prime (except Mata, Januzaj, Rafael, Welbeck and Cleverley, and the latter three are probably right at their prime with much left to be desired).
That said, I’m sure the corporation is losing boatloads of revenue around the world. Luckily, a favorable draw has kept them in the Champions League, so they are able to recoup some of it. I suspect that he would have already been bounced had they not made it into the Quarter-finals.
But the CL run will end next round and it looks like no Europe play at all next season. Without a significant overhaul, this squad has no immediate future. The question is, will they let Moyes manage it?
Yes and No. Yes - they’ve obviously changed things a bit and are a new player in the upper echelons of the league - certainly since the turn of the century. But they also represent the same thing that I am railing against - a moneyed elite that is likely to be self-fulfilling in the long run. There was a period in the middle of the last decade where you knew who the top 4 would be every year (Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool) and, for me, it was dull - the games between the top 4 were interesting but there was never any real sense of threat or that other clubs could make a push into those place. So, yes, City changed that - but only in the sense that they played the same game - get money and break in by brute financial force.
Obviously, Liverpool are not poor (and neither are Tottenham) but they are poorer than Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd, as far as I can tell - so I think it’s great to see these comparatively smaller clubs mixing things up and for money not to be the sole determinant of success. My ideal would be a club like Southampton (major emphasis on their youth system at that club) getting into the Top 4 and kicking one of these richer clubs further down the pyramid for a little bit. A bit like finding it interesting that the Oakland As can compete in baseball, despite having less money. It makes things a bit more interesting - for me, at least, who is only really an interested observer of the Premier League, rather than being invested as a fan of one of the clubs.
Bit of a hijack really this though. Suffice it to say, I’m not displeased the Moyes is struggling a bit and hope that Man Utd don’t necessarily turn it around immediately, so we might see some other players bubble up.
Don’t know if you were around in 1975, Cumbrian, but Everton finished fourth in the league by 3 points, and we got beaten by Carlisle home and away! Stuck in the memory of many an older Evertonian that.
[QUOTE=Jackknifed Juggernaut]
IMHO, not enough South Americans on the team. Rafael and Valencia just don’t cut it.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve not seen a great deal of Rafael myself, but he is well regarded at Old Trafford. I mean he’s no Seamus Coleman, but he’s seen as a legit right back for the future. Evra, Vidic and Ferdinand are finished - replacing 3/4 of the defence in a single close season will be a tall order - Might get another season out of Evra.
Kind of off-subject, but I was in a bar next to an Irish fellow and we casually began discussing the EPL. I was the rare American that knew most of the teams and players so he threw a few “facts” at me.
He told me that the teams that wear red home uniforms were “Catholic” teams and those that wear blue are “Protestant”. Thus, ManU, Arsenal and Liverpool are Catholic, while Man City, Chelsea and Everton are Protestant. He said that the Irish flag flies over the grounds of the red teams to represent solidarity with the mostly-Catholic Ireland. Finally, he said Tottenham is a Jewish team. Similarly, in the Scottish League, Celtic is the Catholic team and Rangers is the Protestant team. Any truth to all this? If so, does this type of religious backing occur in the other European leagues as well?
He was giving you the blarney as far as red and blue and catholic / protestant, and the Irish flag goes, ie he was talking total bollox.
Tottenham are connected with the N London Jewish community, though, and are disparagingly referred to as Yids (a slang term for a Jew in UK English) by opposition supporters. Their own fans also use the term, in a lets-neutralise-the-insult-by-using-it-ourselves - tbh the majority of match-going Spurs fans are probably not Jewish so it’s not much of an insult in the first place. There was something in the news recently about Spurs fans being censured in regard to hate-speech for chanting it at a match.
Celtic are a catholic team, and Rangers are a protestant team - that is definitive.
This is basically true, but there are plenty of Protestant Celtic supporters. A similar split, but to a lesser extent, is found in Edinburgh with Hibs/Hearts, and to an even lesser extent in Dundee with Dundee Utd/Dundee.
Unfortunately, I am not of the age where I was around when Carlisle had its one season in the top division and had its most successful period. Born in 81 and started going regularly when we were in what is now League 2 and bounced around all over the place - own to the Conference and up as high as the playoffs to get into the Championship. I used to go along with a mate of my Dad’s who had been going since the mid-60s though. He doubtless would have remembered the games against Everton. He had an incredible memory for the games he’d seen - and in particular that season.
I do hope that they don’t get rid of him too quickly. Man U. must have known that a couple of seasons of flaky performances were likely before Moyes’s team will emerge and should have budgeted accordingly.
The general approach to football administration (i.e. chairmen and boards) in the new century appears to be a depressing cycle through manager changes and big money spending until such time as you can claim success. Forget the hundreds of millions you pissed away on managers and players. It is the equivalent of firing at a blank wall then drawing your bullseye around it. (then wondering why it is not sustainable)
If they sack Moyes while he is still in the process of effecting a long term change (which is what Man U. were always going to need) then they begin spiraling down until such time as the Glasers cut their losses and sell to the next available sheik/oligarch/mob boss/chinese arriviste. The fans will then be putting their trust in the “fit and proper” regulations (ha! good luck with that, I speak as a Leeds supporter) and will be hoping they don’t choose unwisely and end up with a Vincent Tan-style situation during which all fans will weep silently and wonder why they weren’t just slightly more patient with a decent and capable manager.
Oooh, bad draw in the QF’s against the mighty Bayern. Then again, it’s also an opportunity. They surely wouldn’t sack him if they knock off Bayern, would they?
But Moyes isn’t effecting any long term change, thats the problem. His Manchester United have shown zero sign of any long term planning or development of any style of play, ten months into his reign we still do not know what Moyes plans to do with this club.
As I said already most United fans expected a tough year. If we were languishing in 7th but could point to a couple of new faces bedding in and a new style of play then there wouldn’t be any problem.
But thats not happening. Instead we are playing utter crap football, two transfer windows have passed without the most serious squad issues being addressed (CM and LB), and there is no discernible long term plan being put in place. Its been an utter disaster on every level.
But isn’t that just the problem? this side is nowhere near being his Man. U.
He hasn’t been able to get the players he wants and so hasn’t been able to shape the team as he wants.
He proved very able at giving Everton his own stamp and organising his players so he *can *do it.
As an outsider I can’t begin to imagine what Man U. supporters were expecting to happen when SAF left. Even if Moyes isn’t the man for you there will be a lull in results while rebuilding takes place. You sack him now you and set a precedent which may mean you never give the right man enough time either. I then refer you to the scenario I painted some moments ago.
CM - Mata and Fellaini have come in. OKay, maybe Mata was a bit of a sign of desperation and hasn’t done much since arriving, and Fellaini was purchased for several million more than his buy-out clause because of Moyes’ incompetence and has largely been a failure, but still, Moyes has addressed the central midfield issue.
United will probably lose to Pep’s lads, but they would have done under Fergie too, so I doubt he’ll be sacked because of that. On the other hand taking last season’s champions to a position below the team he managed last season, who have improved since he left, that’s not encouraging.
Some clubs have some religious or political associations, mainly abroad. like Red Star and Partizan Belgrade, and indeed Celtic and Rangers in Glasgow. The colour red is a different matter. Arsenal, for example, wear red because their first kits were donated by Nottingham Forest, a team with no political or religious affiliations I’m aware of.
The midfield on Wednesday was Micheal Carrick and Ryan Giggs. The other options are Tom Cleverley and Felliani. Thats a shocking selection, so don’t tell me he has addressed the midfield issue, its very much a major problem still with this side.
From the minute Moyes arrived United have been crying out for a midfielder who can carry the ball forward and link up with the quality attackers ahead of him, a creative player who can dictate possession and influence games. After two transfer windows and £60m we still don’t have one. Felliani was never the type of player we needed, as evidenced by the fact that come the crunch he can’t even get in the side ahead of 40 year old Ryan Giggs. He was a desperation signing after a summer of failure, just as Mata was a last gasp signing that we didn’t need and that still didn’t address what the squad really required.