Sadly, that’s what it’s down to. There’s Paul, the head of neurosurgery at Harvard, and there’s Brenda, the crackwhore with 4 kids in foster care. Everyone else is taken.
Kalhoun,
Well for starts, you can read this thread and the various links therein. Or any other reputable scientific literature on the subject - I’m not exactly revealing any great new secrets here.
I think I see what you’re aiming for. Anyone who according to your theory should be gay but isn’t - whether ultra-orthodox Jew or identical twin of a gay person - must be gay, but is merely closeted. This is as silly as it is unfalsifiable. I’m not going to bother arguing it, if indeed it is your intention.
KellyM,
One might be surprised at your conviction that studies that you’ve apparently never seen are flawed. But one might not. If they disagree with your preferred conclusion, they must be flawed.
Something to consider.
Actually, no. You are, of course, free to criticize anyone you like. I was wondering on what basis you make such criticisms, and why you feel they are valid.
I turned the question around from “How would you react if your son/daughter told you s/he was gay” to “How would you react if your son/daughter told you s/he had joined a fundamentalist cult”. That is, to something that gay parents would presumably feel just as strongly about as a straight parent would about a homosexual offspring. And the reactions were much closer to what would be labelled as bigotted if they came from the latter.
“I have failed as a parent!” “It would hurt my relationship with my daughter.” Even revolting allegations of torture from lissener.
I was wondering what the justification would be for treating a child who “came out” as a fundamentalist as has been suggested by some posters.
In other words, if some homophobe had said he would nail his son’s hands to the wall if he came out as gay, would you allow the reference to pass unchallenged? Would you be understanding if the same parent said he would feel he had failed as a parent?
The only distinction I have heard so far is that coming out of the closet to your parents is not a choice, since homosexuality is something that happens to you, like being hit by lightning. Lt’s presume for the moment that it is. Are there any choices that you feel would justify the kind of reaction that gay Dopers have admitted to if their children became fundamentalists? Would you forbid them the house if they said they had voted for Bush? How about if they decided to drop out of college because they had become pregnant?
I am just wondering why understanding and accepting compassion are the only valid reactions in one set of circumstances - but not in others. It seems to me to be almost entirely a matter of whose ox is being gored. If the child does something deeply offensive to my standards, I am a bad person to react badly. If the child does something deeply offensive to lissener’s standards, it’s a whole other ball game.
Odd, that.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, a Google search on “Gay Orthodox Jews” turned up hundreds of web sites, support groups, magazine articles . . . That’s a lot of press for people who don’t exist!
Shodan, please reread my post to Svt4Him:
Apples and oranges. One is a choice; one is not.
Situation One: The child of a religious couple grows up gay, fights it, cannot change, and confesses to his parents that—despite all his efforts and wishes—he is gay.
Situation Two: The child of a gay and/or non-religious couple decides to begin following a religion that proscribes homosexuality.
From Izzy’s link to the previous thread:
Anybody think to ask the experts? (No, not me! )
According to The American Psychological Association:
quote:
What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?
There are numerous theories about the origins of a person’s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person’s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person’s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.
Hmmm…
Why the hell would someone choose a life of ridicule, pain, abandonment, and physical danger if they weren’t wired to be attracted to the same sex?
IzzyR, you made an unwarranted assumption back there a bit. I’ve seen most of the studies that claim to support your position, and without exception the ones I’ve seen are flawed in some way or another. The reason why I am only “reasonably certain” is there are studies I have not seen, and it is possible that one of the ones I haven’t seen supports your claim and lacks serious flaw. I just think that’s unlikely.
Given that the bulk of the evidence goes the other way, and that most of the studies that claim to support your hypothesis appear to be flawed, I believe my “reasonable certainty” is justified by the evidence I have seen, and not merely by my prejudicial belief, as you would implicate.
Nice little bit of ad hominem, in any case. Thanks for playing.
Shodan are you really confused by lissener’s hyperbole or are you being intentionally obtuse?
I’ll grant you for the sake of argument that the sole distinction comes down to choice–but nobody’s addressed an earlier question I raised: what about those religious folks who are possessed of a conviction so strong that, practically speaking, they don’t have a choice? Consider the extreme example of someone who has a religious vision, a la Paul getting knocked off his horse. And for the sake of argument, let’s rule out drugs, alcohol, and any discernible mental disorders–in other words, somebody who, from the set of data and circumstances from which they’re working, must reach the conclusion that 1) fundamentalist Christianity is correct and 2) as a result, homosexuality is sinful.
I have to say that I’m disappointed a number of people in this thread (and I’m noting, the boards at large) fail to take into account other people’s point of view and intellectual capacities. Assuming, arguendo, that God is perfectly happy with homosexuality, there are some Christians who are simply, intellectually, incapable of reaching that conclusion, at least at this point in their lives. (I agree, stubbornness would have a lot to do with it, but so would cultural upbringing, age, and other social factors.) How would you, for example, convince your 90-year old Baptist grandfather with alzhimer’s that God is OK with gays? He’s unlikely to cross that threshold, but I don’t think that makes him unworthy of the same unconditional love you’d expect from him.
Let me give a personal example. My mother is pushing close to 70, and her brain is a little bit addled from age and, I’m sorry to say, alcohol. She’s a polite lady, but I occassionally hear racial epithets slip from her mouth that would get her pitted and booted twice over on these boards. I cringe every time I hear her say something like that. I also realize that 1) she’s from an older era where phrases like that were common, and 2) no matter how much I talk to her about it, she’s not going to change in her attitudes anytime soon. I don’t like it, but I still love her unconditionally because, darn it, she’s my mother.
Intellect is a funny thing; I am seriously convinced that the brain needs to be trained to work a certain way. I am convinced this after three years of law school: at the beginning, I had extreme difficulty reading through a case, whereas today, I can blow through one and find what I need in a matter of minutes. My method of thinking had to change before I could achieve a certain level of understanding.
This is why I am frustrated in this discussion: despite this thread’s universal cry for compassion and understanding, it only applies one way. I read lissener’s OP ask basically saying that parental love of a child must always triumph over personal beliefs and/or prejudices. Shodan and I have been asking why this only runs from Christians to gays, and not vice versa. Several of you have replied that this is because homosexuality is inherent, not chosen. My response, in short, is that you’ve been neglecting that religion is an incredibly personal experience, that not all persons have the capacity to simply snap and reach the intellectual, much less emotional conclusion that you have, and that if, as the OP seems to postulate, parental love should always triumph, then fundie children should be owed the same love and patience that you’d expect from fundie parents.
…end rant. By the way, I love you all, unconditionally. 
I’ve repeated throughout this thread that I am referring to ultra-orthodox Jews, not what is known as “modern Orthodox Jews”. I would assume the incidence is significantly higher among the latter group, and even higher yet among those who became orthodox (of either variety) after their formative years.
Kalhoun,
You are confusing “environmental factors” with “choice”. These are not the same. Reread your own quote from the “experts”:
Perhaps you (and KellyM) are aware of the flaws in the thinking of most scientists and have disproved their work but that is for another thread - I think I’m on safe ground in relying on them here.
Yeah, but No True Ultra-Orthodox Jew would be Gay.
Fascinating how many different red herrings are swarming in this thread! :dubious:
lissener, a minor tangent that I wish not to become a hjack: that 33% of teen suicides being gay-related – do you have a cite for that? There are a number of related statistics, some valid and some not, relative to suicidal gay youth, and many of them use that one-third figure. If that one has a documented cite, it could be invaluable in arguments such as these. If so, thanks.
Svt, as a practical matter, imagine that you have children (I seem to recall you being unmarried), and that one of them does in fact come out to you. Would you specify what your mix of feelings and reactions would likely be? That was, after all, the gist of the OP – I can see the sort of sparring you’re doing, in that people are reading into your statements a view you may or may not hold, but I’d be interested in your honest reactions.
Shodan, I think the point about choice made against your OP-reversal is valid but not quite on point. I frankly despise the “Christians vs. gays” scenarios that get set up. Are you asking, what if a gay person had a child, and that child joined a Christian sect that held that homosexual acts are sinful? A response to a God of whose existence and goodness one has become convinced is not precisely a choice, I grant – but that one might join a particular sect with anti-gay views emphatically is a choice. And in any case, any attitudes about the morality of the parent deriving from those verses we’ve all learned by heart by now would IMHO be trumped by the Fifth Commandment for that particular believer. (And I see Res has said much of this more cogently than I could.)
My question would be, to everyone: putting yourself in the place of the conservative Christian, holding the sorts of beliefs thar are common to their worldview, what do you feel the proper response ought to be, and why?
Fascinating how many different red herrings are swarming in this thread! :dubious:
lissener, a minor tangent that I wish not to become a hjack: that 33% of teen suicides being gay-related – do you have a cite for that? There are a number of related statistics, some valid and some not, relative to suicidal gay youth, and many of them use that one-third figure. If that one has a documented cite, it could be invaluable in arguments such as these. If so, thanks.
Svt, as a practical matter, imagine that you have children (I seem to recall you being unmarried), and that one of them does in fact come out to you. Would you specify what your mix of feelings and reactions would likely be? That was, after all, the gist of the OP – I can see the sort of sparring you’re doing, in that people are reading into your statements a view you may or may not hold, but I’d be interested in your honest reactions.
Shodan, I think the point about choice made against your OP-reversal is valid but not quite on point. I frankly despise the “Christians vs. gays” scenarios that get set up. Are you asking, what if a gay person had a child, and that child joined a Christian sect that held that homosexual acts are sinful? A response to a God of whose existence and goodness one has become convinced is not precisely a choice, I grant – but that one might join a particular sect with anti-gay views emphatically is a choice. And in any case, any attitudes about the morality of the parent deriving from those verses we’ve all learned by heart by now would IMHO be trumped by the Fifth Commandment for that particular believer. (And I see Res has said much of this more cogently than I could.)
My question would be, to everyone: putting yourself in the place of the conservative Christian, holding the sorts of beliefs thar are common to their worldview, what do you feel the proper response ought to be, and why?
I should have added that you can’t show much by a proliferation of cites on Google. Many or most of these are probably references to the same small number of groups. There are about 50,000 references to “Trembling Before G-d” alone.
This is a nit-wit comment, at best. The exact boundaries between the different groups of orthodox Jews are not well defined, but they are certainly not defined in terms of likelihood of being gay. One of the most fundamental differences between the different groups that I refer to is the degree of openness to and integration with the larger culture. Which has a direct bearing on the likelihood of environmental factors producing a similar likelihood of being gay, as per the above.
OK, joining a particular religion is a choice. So is coming out of the closet to your folks. So? In both cases, you are acting out of a deeply felt impulse. Why condemn the one, but require love and acceptance of the other?
It sounds like Even and lissener are saying that it is acceptable to treat your child dreadfully if he or she makes a bad choice. Which doesn’t sound so compassionate to me.
If you want your parents to be loving and accepting of your choices, it seems to me that you should try to model that behavior in yourself, at least on the SDMB.
The flip side of “I was treated horribly when I came out” should not be “therefore I would do the same or worse the first chance I got”.
Regards,
Shodan
I often feel like I’m shouting into the wind on these boards because I’m not posting inflammatory things and thus glazed over. Nor am I as eloquent as Polycarp in being moderate. Ahh well… I’ll reiterate: I think the relationship between a gay parent and their fundamentalist child would be damaged as badly as the reverse situation. This doesn’t mean love is non-existent, just that a relationship is hard to maintain with such fundamental (no pun intended) roadblocks in the way.
I’ve seen it most evident in the OP’s hypothetical case, but I’m sure its worked the other way before. Loving the sinner but hating the sin sets up serious complications and conditions between people. Why? Because what we do flows out from who we are, our personality molds our actions. By rejecting certain actions of another person, we sometimes reject a part of their personality which caused those actions. Sometimes that doesn’t matter very much, as its not a very core part of them, and sometimes it does. Faith and romance can be powerful driving forces in a person’s life and glazing over such things can drastically devastate the trust and communication which make solid bonds possible.
Thus, should my future daughter or son become fundamentalist for one reason or another, I would seek to find a workable middle ground… I’m just not sure it’d be easy to maintain.
The parallelism isn’t between choosing to join a particular religious path and choosing to come out; it’s between the religious path and being gay, or choosing to come out and choosing to inform other people about one’s religious beliefs.
One can be a part of a particular religion or have a particular sexual orientation without telling anyone about it. For many people (I am example of one of those people), it is very difficult to do so; it feels like being less than honest or denying something very important, whether that denial is the one of claiming that a particular person isn’t really a partner or as Peter’s before cock-crow. Closetedness is a horror; for my own reasons, religious and otherwise, I would not wish it on anyone.
Why must you reword my questions before you refuse to answer them? Why can’t you just answer the questions I’ve asked? You insist on reducing it to the most absurd simplicity before you can find something to object to in it. My point in framing the question in as many ways as possible is to show you that it’s not as cut and dried as you insist that it is.
Refuse to answer the questions that I’ve asked you if you don’t have the courage to answer them, but don’t twist them and rewrite them to something that you can more easily object to before you duck them.
That’s not what I asked.
Do you not understand that if you raise a child in a world in which “there are no gay orthodox Jews,” if that child comes to discover that he or she is gay, you have told him that he must choose between himself and his family/religion? Where do you think these escalated suicide rates in gay teens come from?
I’m not asking you what you would do if your child was struck by lightning or chased by a gorilla, because you would not raise your child to think that those occurrences would be due to his innate sinfulness, so they’re not apt analogs.
Why is it that neither you nor Svt will simply answer the question put to you in this thread? This thread has no other purpose, so why are you here if you’re not going to answer the question?
That’s not what I asked.
Do you not understand that if you raise a child in a world in which “there are no gay orthodox Jews,” if that child comes to discover that he or she is gay, you have told him that he must choose between himself and his family/religion? Where do you think these escalated suicide rates in gay teens come from?
I’m not asking you what you would do if your child was struck by lightning or chased by a gorilla, because you would not raise your child to think that those occurrences would be due to his innate sinfulness, so they’re not apt analogs.
Why is it that neither you nor Svt will simply answer the question put to you in this thread? This thread has no other purpose, so why are you here if you’re not going to answer the question?